Post subject: Encoding and publishing issues
JXQ
Experienced player (761)
Joined: 5/6/2005
Posts: 3132
Some disclaimers: I fully realize the difficult job of encoding a movie to the standards of this website (it is far beyond my abilities). I also realize that encoders, just like the other contributors at this site, do so without compensation in their own free time. That being said: Recently, I’ve become aware of several incidents of “competition” among encoders. Example. It seems that encoding has become yet another way to try and 1-up someone. I can’t think of a worse way to spend the resource of time on this site. There are over forty accepted runs in the queue, and our two main encoders, Bisqwit and DeHackEd, are busy fighting to get the most popular videos. This is positively asinine, and not beneficial to the site at all. The queue is getting out of control. There is a steady stream of new runs being submitted – I would estimate a run could be published every other day and we would not exhaust our supply at the current rate. Yet the runs aren’t interesting enough for our encoders to bother with, so they sit and sit. This is bad in many ways: 1) If users are watching, voting, and commenting on runs in order to help the judges decide the fate to get movies published, and this isn’t happening, then some people may decide there isn’t a point to watching all the runs they do, and stop contributing. 2) It can be disheartening for those submitting movies. Many people would not have come to this site in the first place if there weren't AVIs made from the emulator movie files. 3) It is bad for those who watched encoded AVIs, and not runs on the emulator. If the run they are excited about probably won’t be published for six months, then what’s the point of visiting the site very often? How is this fixable? Efforts could be coordinated among encoders better. For example, Maza had first encoded my Castlevania run, and then Nach also decided to encode it himself. This could have been avoided with better coordination, with Nach spending the time encoding a different run, and we’d have more runs published as a result, with less wasted time by both encoders. A little more effort on the publisher’s part would do wonders. There are encoded runs waiting to be published. This is a five-minute process, if that, yet it just doesn’t happen. This is either straight laziness, or a purposeful delay of publishing movies (which is biting the site in the ass since the queue is so cramped with accepted runs). More encoders would be helpful. However, the chances of that happening are slim when the page explaining how to encode things comes across like a condescending jackass (“spoon-fed instructions”). Lastly, I want to make sure I give a special mention to Maza. What does this guy do? He encodes movies – lots of them, and not just the most popular ones. Then he has them ready for a publisher to put on the site. Guess how often this happens? Not too much, since the publishers are busy figuring out which Mega Man run to encode next. Seriously it takes LESS THAN FIVE MINUTES. I can’t believe Maza still does it; he’s even been bitched at for encoding a movie that wasn’t yet accepted. So THANK YOU MAZA, for your attempts at keeping the queue manageable and the site afloat.
<Swordless> Go hug a tree, you vegetarian (I bet you really are one)
adelikat
He/Him
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Joined: 11/3/2004
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When Truncated and I became judges, the queue was up to 100+ submissions; almost all of which were undecided. We brought that down to about 20ish accepted submission. As it got "cleaned out" I noticed much more votes/response on the remaining ones. Now I see that slowly climbing back up but with accepted submissions. I see that turning people away from voting and commenting on the runs. I can see how someone wouldn't care much about voting if the run is going to sit there for 6 months-year even after being accepted.
It's hard to look this good. My TAS projects
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Joined: 7/12/2004
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Location: USA
Posted before shit hits the fan.
Working on: Command and Conquer PSX Nod Campaign
upthorn
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Joined: 3/24/2006
Posts: 1802
OgreSlayeR wrote:
Posted before shit hits the fan.
If you aren't going to contribute to the topic, why even post? I think everyone who's paying attention agrees that there is an issue with the way the encoding and publishing is currently happening. After all, there are accepted submissions dating back 6 months, but new Megaman runs will get published the day they're submitted. JXQ is just voicing his observations. It's not like he's being needlessly inflammatory, either. So whatever you thought you were accomplishing with "Posted before shit hits the fan.", you weren't.
How fleeting are all human passions compared with the massive continuity of ducks.
Joined: 2/16/2005
Posts: 462
I agree that encoding/publishing on this site seems to need a little tweeking. Though I'm not sure which to address first.. http://tasvideos.org/Users.html Not enough encoders? Maybe we should work on automating the process more? The process seems much easier for SNES games and NES games. Perhaps the site should be distributing a simple encoding 'kit' that comes as a snapshot containing everything you need to encode from the codecs to subtitles and basic logo support? That would be more friendly then the wiki I think. The aspect that I currently do not know how to accomplish is the inserting of logo/subtitle and the wiki does not address that at all. I know there are many ways but providing a single way would be beneficial. As for publishers... they have to write the blurb, pick a screenshot, and judge video quality and name. Currently there are fewer publishers than judges and I don't think thats necessarily efficient. Perhaps publishing should be more open and a new position of "publisher judge" gives the final OK for content to make it to the main page? Just some ideas.
This signature is much better than its previous version.
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Joined: 8/26/2006
Posts: 1139
Location: United Kingdom
I agree with you in every sense JXQ and I thank you for bringing this up because it is a definite problem. I tell the truth when I say that I have made a solid effort to learn to encode, however, because of the high requirements this is very difficult and will definitely turn many away from encoding. When I look at the members of the site I see many that are very confident and intelligent with computers (obviously) and so could easily encode a movie if they put their minds to it. If everyone that could do it encoded a movie every so often then we wouldn't have nearly as bad a situation as we now have.
P.JBoy
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Location: stuck in Pandora's box HELLPP!!!
IMO we should have 5 encoders 1 for nes 1 for snes 1 for gb/gbc/gba 1 for n64 1 for genesis But we do need a good tutorial, or at least a link to an off-site tutorial, because the current "HowToMakeAVI" page is a bit out of date (not to mention there's nothing about zmv, m64 or vbm) and the last time it was edited was in Febuary!
Skilled player (1604)
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That was no bad idea, or maybe even have two for the larger consoles, such as NES and SNES.
Warp wrote:
omg lol this is so fake!!!1 the nes cant produce music like this!
Skilled player (1098)
Joined: 8/26/2006
Posts: 1139
Location: United Kingdom
That's a good point, that page could be better and more up to date. Then again you can't have a universal method for encoding, as far as I know it varies with game. That is another reason so few people encode.
Editor, Player (69)
Joined: 6/22/2005
Posts: 1050
I agree with JXQ's points, but it's really not so easy to encode movies. I've tried a few times and failed spectacularly. From reading the documentation of mplayer/mencoder, I get the impression that you should know [a lot] about audio and video formats and compression, which I do not.
asteron wrote:
The aspect that I currently do not know how to accomplish is the inserting of logo/subtitle and the wiki does not address that at all. I know there are many ways but providing a single way would be beneficial.
I ran into the same issue in my many failed encoding attempts, so I finally decided upon probably the most time-consuming method of making a logo. Namely, I made a ROM that gave the necessary info (I hope). It's for the NES, and it just says, "This is a tool-assisted emulator movie. See http://TASvideos.org/ for more information." The text color is supposed to be yellow, but it shows up as a sickly green for some reason. Anyway, if you want it, I could upload it somewhere.
Current Projects: TAS: Wizards & Warriors III.
Post subject: Re: Encoding and publishing issues
Editor, Expert player (2071)
Joined: 6/15/2005
Posts: 3282
JXQ wrote:
More encoders would be helpful. However, the chances of that happening are slim when the page explaining how to encode things comes across like a condescending jackass (“spoon-fed instructions”).
I shall change it then. I read it many times before and never thought much.
Post subject: Re: Encoding and publishing issues
Editor, Active player (297)
Joined: 3/8/2004
Posts: 7469
Location: Arzareth
JXQ wrote:
There are over forty accepted runs in the queue, and our two main encoders, Bisqwit and DeHackEd, are busy fighting to get the most popular videos.
We're not fighting at that. We usually negotiate. I can think of two issues on which you're extrapolating that we are "busy fighting". Rockman 2, in which I took over the work Dehacked had already started, because I think there's an audio quality issue at stake there. And N64 movies in general, because there is no upper limit on quality standards, hence we compete. There aren't many N64 movies. > How is this fixable? Efforts could be coordinated among encoders better. For example, Maza had first encoded my Castlevania run, and then Nach also decided to encode it himself. This could have been avoided with better coordination, with Nach spending the time encoding a different run, and we’d have more runs published as a result, with less wasted time by both encoders. It is meant that when an encoder takes the job of processing some movie, he edits the submission and marks it as "processing" with his signature. However, often they slack at that, if they think nobody else is doing it... > This is a five-minute process, if that 15-minute, actually. I measured it the last time I published a Maza's movie. That's how much it takes to gather up all the required information for publication (such as verify the AVI quality, get its length, verify the author's name, verify the game name, check if there already is a player entry, check the movie categories, network delays here and there...) Screenshots, descriptions etc take up even more time. It's usually fastest to publish a movie one has encoded himself, because most of the information is already at hand and in close-recall memory.
Post subject: 405: post too stupid
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Posts: 1850
Bisqwit wrote:
(such as verify the AVI quality, get its length, verify the author's name, verify the game name, check if there already is a player entry, check the movie categories, network delays here and there...)
So that's what happened! Look, he doesn't actually verify the movie's subtitles, only the movie page's! That's where all those goofups have been coming from. :( I kid, I kid.
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It could speed up publishing a bit if Players included a screenshot and a description of the run which can go on the main page in their submission text. Kudos to JXQ for usually supplying such info on his submissions.
Warning: Opinions expressed by Nach or others in this post do not necessarily reflect the views, opinions, or position of Nach himself on the matter(s) being discussed therein.
Player (206)
Joined: 5/29/2004
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Then there should be a Screenshot Field and a Description Field in the submission form!
put yourself in my rocketpack if that poochie is one outrageous dude
Former player
Joined: 6/15/2005
Posts: 1711
Bisqwit, Have you considered increasing the number of members with publishing capabilities? I don't know if have more people who feel like dealing with it, but if we do that might be a reasonable solution to get encoded movies published quicker and decrease the amount of work each publisher would have to do in the long run.
Zoey Ridin' High <Fabian_> I prett much never drunk
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Joined: 12/23/2004
Posts: 1850
Nach wrote:
It could speed up publishing a bit if Players included a screenshot and a description of the run which can go on the main page in their submission text. Kudos to JXQ for usually supplying such info on his submissions.
Personally, I always preferred when it was written by/suggested by someone else. Just a personal prefrence, really. Not to mention: - Publishers can always just stick TODO in the fields. - Discussion can lead to a better screenshot than the user themself could post - Etc.
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JXQ
Experienced player (761)
Joined: 5/6/2005
Posts: 3132
Nach wrote:
It could speed up publishing a bit if Players included a screenshot and a description of the run which can go on the main page in their submission text. Kudos to JXQ for usually supplying such info on his submissions.
One of my motivators for that is that it increases the chances of myself liking the screenshot ;) In all seriousness, others might see that as a good reason to supply screenshots as well.
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Location: In his lab studying psychology to find new ways to torture TASers and forumers
Xkeeper wrote:
- Publishers can always just stick TODO in the fields.
We have way too many of those on the site. Personally I try to make something up for every run I publish no matter what.
Xkeeper wrote:
- Discussion can lead to a better screenshot than the user themself could post
Hence why there's a discussion thread associated with each submission, and players can edit their submissions.
Warning: Opinions expressed by Nach or others in this post do not necessarily reflect the views, opinions, or position of Nach himself on the matter(s) being discussed therein.
Editor, Active player (297)
Joined: 3/8/2004
Posts: 7469
Location: Arzareth
As for screenshots: * We have strict quality standards about screenshots. Screenshots submitted by users are often bad quality. The dimensions might be bad, or it might have been converted into/from a JPG, or cropped from a fullscreen screenshot and colour-reduced in the process. It's best to leave it to those who can. Ideas can be given, of course. Displaying a sample screenshot is recommended. This will still require us to go and capture the actual screenshot at good quality. As for description -- it's best that the author's comments and the publication message are kept separately. All the hype from the author may not always be right, or it explains things from wrong perspective. The role of the speaker behind the description is to be the person who also published the previous movie (in case of obsoletion), or a site representative in all cases. He can use words like "we" and "our", that the submitter cannot. Oops. I did not mean to crush your idea. Being quite pessimistic at times, I just told why your idea cannot be implemented in its most naïve form. That doesn't mean it cannot be refined and utilized.
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Fabian wrote:
Bisqwit, Have you considered increasing the number of members with publishing capabilities?
Yes. That's what I created the halfpublisher role for. But there haven't been any nominations yet. I don't know whom to grant it for.
Post subject: Re: Encoding and publishing issues
Joined: 11/11/2004
Posts: 400
Location: ::1
Bisqwit wrote:
15-minute, actually. I measured it the last time I published a Maza's movie. That's how much it takes to gather up all the required information for publication (such as verify the AVI quality, get its length, verify the author's name, verify the game name, check if there already is a player entry, check the movie categories, network delays here and there...) Screenshots, descriptions etc take up even more time. It's usually fastest to publish a movie one has encoded himself, because most of the information is already at hand and in close-recall memory.
Time to maka Maza a publisher? That seems like the easiest solution to that particular problem. It may also be a good idea in general to try to get more encoders and publishers in general.
Post subject: Re: Encoding and publishing issues
Editor, Active player (297)
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schneelocke wrote:
Time to maka Maza a publisher? That seems like the easiest solution to that particular problem.
With no offense, I don't trust Maza is careful enough to do a good job, considering all the site's guidelines regarding publications. But, since nobody is perfect and there's plenty of people to fix up mistakes, and I may be wrong about what I wrote, I'll do as suggested anyway :)
Former player
Joined: 7/12/2004
Posts: 524
Location: USA
It's hard to get more when you're so anal about quality and certain standards. I know this is normally not a bad thing, but as a result we don't get more encoders because of this, and therefor the site is more stagnant. Some people have trouble encoding something that well, let alone get it to work at all. I've tried it, and I know it isn't easy. It's just some people just have trouble with things like that.
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Bisqwit: I'm not saying publishers must take verbatim from submissions, nor should they most of the time. However it helps if the player provides a basis for the required info. And surprisingly enough JXQ's last submission I published, I took his screenshot and went to shrink it, and all my tools said it would make it larger. So obviously some players know what they're doing. We as publishers just have to make a call, and at times can have work cut out for us if the player did a bit of homework.
Warning: Opinions expressed by Nach or others in this post do not necessarily reflect the views, opinions, or position of Nach himself on the matter(s) being discussed therein.