Joined: 6/13/2006
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yes, I can imagine. The problem is that DK and Pikachu's up+B are ideal for them to miss the ledge, because it's fast moving, has little friction so a ledge is nescessary for them to stop, but it's not there because you're grabbing on. Link does not do his up+B frequently, you can reverse his direction mid spin, and is not as fast/frictionless. how many times when playing as the console did you DK spin too far off the ledge, same with pikachu? but Link never had that problem, he just couldn't reach back to the platform *ahem*
I'll make 2 copies of the .m64 tonight, one to test faster strategies to save at least one second for the swallow maneuver on the right, and one to test Link on the left side. I have my doubts though if it'll work. If all ends badly, I'll still have a backup with 4:51 completion (although it'd be nice if I can squeeze an aerial out of it.)
Edit: I just tested getting aerial bonus, it can't be gotten, not by sucking Link in by air and landing on the platform.
BOOM shakalaka!!!!!
Just got a 4:52, ending with Kirby off screen at the bottom. While it's not as impressive an ending like chasing after Link like in the posted WIP, it hits that exact sweet spot to spit out Link at the very bottom. I have it preserved with a savestate, so I'll try to replicate it to have Kirby show off more and such, and if that fails I have the 4:52.
Oh, and swallow/copying damages Link, so that's a no go.
nice. Of all the years and millions of times playing SSB N64, I've never NEVER been able to get 110600 or more at the end of round 1. NEVER. So to me this is pretty impressive, even if you used a slow down tool.
I don't quite remember what stage it was that I got the Hawk bonus on, I could swear it was on vs Link...I guess I'm wrong.
Joined: 6/13/2006
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well, you were only 50 shy in your vid, which compared to the other large bonuses available is incredibly small. Bigger differences between scores will come once the larger "team" fights come, because frame perfection will really shine there.
So I think I can officially say, "Link Done".
psychoticworm wrote:
I don't quite remember what stage it was that I got the Hawk bonus on, I could swear it was on vs Link...I guess I'm wrong.
I did test it in Link, and it doesn't work. I don't know, maybe something else? *shrug* time to start Yoshi Team planning. That's what I love about TASes, you can stop after a difficult part and plan the next instead of having to do 100% of all research beforehand and cross fingers that all goes well.
Not that I haven't already done extensive researching of course, as evidenced by bringing the Kirby video back into use.
Now, for Yoshi team: You do all throws, and there are some juicy bonuses attached with that; is it also an option to do all up+B cutters? for the teams, they have reduced strength so that attacks have more oomph, and a cutter is a guarantee fast send yoshi/kirby/polygon to the top of the screen, possibly more than one enemy at a time, so speedster is slightly possible. Are the throwing bonuses higher than using only up+b?
very nice ... I just tried that level and got 4:49 with the exact same bonuses, but my final score was 110450. Seems like there is a 50 point penalty for every second wasted.
Borg Collective wrote:
Negotiation is irrelevant. Self-determination is irrelevant. You will be assimilated.
Joined: 6/13/2006
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there is indeed. Every second counts!!!!
Actually, 1 second wasted = 50 points, so I have 200 seconds to acheieve a bonus of 10,000 to end up even.
Speedster is anything above 4:29. So, you only lose 1,500 points to have a 30 second margin, and in that margin, with extreme luck manipulation I bet a lot of other bonuses can get racked up.
for the yoshi team, i suppose you're going to use a lot of pinwheel attacks, and manipulate luck to produce pokeballs with mews, is that right?
I find it quite hard to beat yoshi team under 30 seconds without tas tools.
Borg Collective wrote:
Negotiation is irrelevant. Self-determination is irrelevant. You will be assimilated.
Joined: 6/13/2006
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did nico get speedster on Yoshi Team?
edit: yes, he got 15 seconds :P
not pinwheel attacks, either throwing or up+b, depending on which gives better bonuses. Luck manipulation is going to be essential... the get specific pokemon thing I mostly understand, the make-the-pokeball-appear-trick not so much. I did not see a single item drop in nico's run, so maybe not... unless antd what causes items to drop?
Joined: 6/13/2006
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for single player, a predefined time when an item drops you can affect what item it'll be? I think that changing the frequency of item drop rate would not be allowed/practical, because changing item drop frequency only applies to multiplayer.
So maybe it's just make do with what items do drop, manipulate the pokeball to be the item that drops, and get Mew out for 15,000? So you said controller input after the pokeball is thrown affects the pokemon, what affects what item will drop? same thing?
Joined: 6/13/2006
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Luck is based on what input happens on what specific frame. It might seem like Luck in real time, but it's manipulatable in TAS. What I'm wondering is what to manipulate to make certain items appear. Luck manipulation is not my forte, I generally need to know ahead of time how to do it and then I can manage.
mmm, chicken ramen noodles tastes so good....
tonight I should have a gameplan for mopping the floor with them yoshis. I'll be writing down that psychoticworm got for bonuses, consider more available bonuses that can be got within the 30 second time range for speedster, and compare up+b vs. all throwing.
Ok. Well also I think Items dont start to drop at any time, until about 20-30 seconds into battle...this would explain why no items appear in nicos play. I am pretty sure you will never see any item appear on stage within the first 10 seconds of any battle...unless you use some kind of input cheat(IE a gameshark code that allows an item to spawn when you press down on the d pad)
at any rate, it does take awhile for items to appear normally in 1player mode if you arent considering a game hack/codes
EDIT: also some info on yoshi team. If you backdrop throwing them is quicker then meteor throwing them(kirbys straight up then down throw)
If you want to do backthrows, its best to do it at the top ledge, this almost guarentees that the yoshi will die as a star, whereas backthrowing them when your on the bottom ledge near an edge, will almost always kill them instantaneously, or not kill them at all. The meteor throw will ALWAYS 100% of the time kill the yoshis as a star, never instantly. I had numerous times where I would throw one yoshi with a meteor throw(attempting to go for yoshi rainbow) then the next one in a row i would backthrow, The second yoshi would die first before the one that was meteor thrown first(thus making them out of order, eliminating yoshi rainbow as a bonus)
What do you mean "link done"? I thought you were going to try to suck in Link while away from the edge so you could just fall and copy and link wouldn't be able to get back up? or did copy compromise Pacifist?
Joined: 6/13/2006
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it compromised Pacifist, it dealt 6% damage. plus, I reduced it down to 4:52 anyways, I'm very satisfied with that time and score. check the .m64, it was a perfect swallow drop spitting Link out just slightly above the bottom of the level, and used a cutter to just barely avoid death by one frame.
That's good advice for the Yoshi stage, I figured that backthrows were better since they took less time. and I'm guessing that the throw bonuses of throwdown, judo warior etc. are better than the special move, smashless etc. of using only upper cut. Since I'm testing everything, I think it might not hurt to try out both, but maybe a little research into the available bonuses would remove the need for that.
Hrm you seem to have gotten 41 seconds, and yet it was really well executed, is speedster possible with Kirby doing throws? I guess we'll see. I noted that two items dropped, a crate and a hammer, so those can be two potential mews right?
I suppose so. I was just merely emphasizing that items will probably not start dropping until at least 10-15 seconds into any p1 mode battle. I noticed in my run of polygon team they started to drop sooner, but still over 10 seconds into battle.
Also you might consider how much damage you will deal to each person throughout the whole run...there is a damage bonus as well! 10 times whatever accumulated damage was done throughout the battle to all the yoshis/cpus. Maybe a down spiral kick, Z cancel backthrow combo? That would be frickin sweet...dunno if that would potentially affect the final bonuses of throw down and judo warrior tho..
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the damage accumulated would nullify the throw down and judo warrior bonuses, as those require throws to be strictly used for the stage.
I just rewatched the Mario Bros. fight, WOW was that awesome. I'm still writing up all the bonuses you had earned per stage and the total score at the end of each stage to use as a benchmark. when I finish that, on to Yoshi strategizing.
antd have you made any progress of Fox run?
Joined: 6/13/2006
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correct.
A thought just occured to me... bonus wise, psychoticworm's vid is very precise, except for doing things faster/flawlessly, making mew appear, making fighting polygon team better, and getting Bros. Calamity + True friend in Mario Bros. match, plus a few other tiny things, is a significantly higher score even possible?
Joined: 3/18/2006
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comicalflop wrote:
for single player, a predefined time when an item drops you can affect what item it'll be? I think that changing the frequency of item drop rate would not be allowed/practical, because changing item drop frequency only applies to multiplayer.
What I was saying is that in 1player mode the invisible setting is either "normal" or "low" etc.
The direction and strength at which you throw the capsule/barrel/crate determines which item may appear. Also, the input after the capsule/barrel/crate is broken greatly changes the item produced.
correct.
A thought just occured to me... bonus wise, psychoticworm's vid is very precise, except for doing things faster/flawlessly, making mew appear, making fighting polygon team better, and getting Bros. Calamity + True friend in Mario Bros. match, plus a few other tiny things, is a significantly higher score even possible?
I was thinking along the lines of close to 2.45mil-2.5mil...
Trust me, I've spent years, since the game was released on N64, up to recently, trying strategies and attempts to get the highest score concievable in the game. I have been eager to go for a world record for this game(which finally happened) and possibly more for a very long time. For some reason SSB high scoring intrigues me. I've thought it out several times, what bonuses would be better off getting, what strategies would give me ultimately more points...I'm pretty sure, there really is no other huge thing I'm missing...my strategy is basically it. It just needs optimized very thouroughly.
Joined: 6/13/2006
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So I cannot MAKE a pokeball drop as the first item, but if a crate/capsule/barrel drops I can make pokeballs drop out of that? Hm... Barrel will be hard because most levels it needs to smash against something
psychoticworm wrote:
I was thinking along the lines of close to 2.45mil-2.5mil...
Trust me, I've spent years, since the game was released on N64, up to recently, trying strategies and attempts to get the highest score concievable in the game. I have been eager to go for a world record for this game(which finally happened) and possibly more. For some reason SSB high scoring intrigues me. I've thought it out several times, what bonuses would be better off getting, what strategies would give me ultimately more points...I'm pretty sure, there really is no other huge thing I'm missing...my strategy is basically it. It just needs optimized very thouroughly.
Optimization up the wazoo is what I'm aiming for ;P
One bonus of interest is Hawk, giving 18,000! possibly in the Mario fight I can use down+a in the air to rack up damage and use cutter to spike them downwards? and I should definetly try to get Hawk in the Master Hand fight because it is so easy
For those interested, I made a Microsoft Excel chart comparing in game time units for all 5 runs (Kirby High score V1, Kirby High Score V2, Kirby High Score TAS, Nico Fox, antd Fox.) antd's and my times are obviously blank because we've only gotten up to Yoshi Team, but you can download to compare times and fill in the char as we produce WIPs.
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yes that's what I was thinking... the ony restriction is for cutter, does that count as an aerial attack if you start it on the ground or hanging on a ledge? and are spikes possible in Mario Bros?
and for doing hawk in Samus and Master hand, there seem to be faster attacks that deal more damage, for instance up tilt+a, smash attack, etc. would restricting myself to aerial make the fight be slightly longer?
but of course, 1 time unit = 50 points so yeah that tradeoff is good
I should end the Polygon team at 3:33 to get an extra bonus there, I can definetly get way faster times than the other two high score runs, however I will not be able to match nico's 4:24. but 3:33 gives some extra time for items, should be managable, plus give me 9990 points.
I just did a bunch of testing; changing which frame you enter a level does not affect what items drop, as I varied entering the Yoshi stage on the same frame different times, didn't get the same items, and tested entering the next possible frame different times, and again different results. So probably, in order for extreme item manipulation just play to beat the very first Yoshi, and keep doing that until an item drops; then, if it's a non good item, go back one or two Yoshis, and beat them again slightly differently.
