Post subject: Pokemon Stadium!
Active player (348)
Joined: 3/21/2006
Posts: 940
Location: Toronto, Canada
I love this game and want to TAS it. I just want to check with the debuggers if the same properties in the gameboy games can apply with Pokemon Stadium.
My current project: Something mysterious (oooooh!) My username is all lower-case letters. Please get it right :(
Editor, Experienced player (734)
Joined: 6/13/2006
Posts: 3300
Location: Massachussetts, USA
I thought this was undoable? I can't remember what the verdict was on it, it's in the N64 wishlist though
Homepage ☣ Retired
Joined: 11/16/2006
Posts: 75
Location: Michigan
Oh boy I'd love to see this. So many times I could swear the CPU was manipulating luck for itself (criticals at the worst possible moment, missing all my attacks with one accuracy drop, etc.), and now I may get a chance to see it's own strategy turned against itself!
Signature under contruction, still.
Joined: 6/25/2006
Posts: 35
Heres going to be the sum of the lvls Gym one: -went as expected, all crits and all enemy misses Gym two: -went as expected, all crits and all enemy misses .... ... .... ... .. Elite Four: -This one was a tough one, all crits and all enemy misses. In no way was this exactly the same as playing on a gameshark because we didnt use one.
Joined: 6/6/2004
Posts: 223
Stadium fixed the 99.6 rule, so no misses from moves like Surf. The big question here is should you use your own Pokemon? Rentals basically suck and don't give you a well-built team, leaving a TAS with the impression that it's sloppy. On the other hand, the Transfer Pak might not be supported. If not, there's no real choice here. If the use of custom-built Pokemon is possible, you'll probably want the most hyper-aggressive teams you can come up with. Pure aggression is what I use anyway in the low-level cups, but when you enter the realm of the TAS, you'd be able to exploit things like Fissure for all they're worth, which wouldn't get very far in standard play. It would also be worth considering to check each attack's animation length, and possibly luck-manipulate them into choosing Pokemon that will fall easily to the faster attack. If the Transfer Pak works, a consideration is how far are you allowed to set it up? Could you select a Dragonite with Earthquake/Drill Peck/Rock Slide/Explosion, moves it couldn't possibly learn in a real game? FCBM could be used to explain why you would have a level 20 Dragonite entered in the Pika Cup, but would those moves be permitted? What about moves that can be learned, but only by having the Pokemon learn that move in a GSC game and trading back? GSC moves and flat-out inaccessible moves show up in the same pink, "You're-not-supposed-to-have-this" color, since Stadium wasn't able to predict the future as far as which Pokemon would gain access to which moves. What rules to we need to go by?
Joined: 11/16/2006
Posts: 75
Location: Michigan
I don't see how the transfer pak would work in an emulator, would you have to select a gameboy ROM of Pokemon to link with the game? Besides, wouldn't using transfered Pokemon go against Bisqwit's no-SRAM rule? On a side note, I think it would be funny to watch someone beat all of R/B/Y on a Dodrio Gameboy.
Signature under contruction, still.
Joe
Joined: 6/10/2006
Posts: 152
Location: Wisconsin
I think using rentals would be the way to go. That way, you can test and see which rental would get through the game the fastest. I don't think it would look sloppy, since it would be likely that luck manipulation and critical hits would work in the TAS's favor
Active player (348)
Joined: 3/21/2006
Posts: 940
Location: Toronto, Canada
Sandshrew's Earthquake can kill most Fighting and Electric Pokemon in one hit.
My current project: Something mysterious (oooooh!) My username is all lower-case letters. Please get it right :(
Joined: 11/16/2006
Posts: 75
Location: Michigan
That reminds me of a dillema that I always had when using rental pokemon. It's a choice between better stats (evolved pokemon), or better moves (unevolved pokemon).
Signature under contruction, still.
Player (36)
Joined: 10/8/2006
Posts: 284
Use the rental Alakazam, because it has Metronome. If you make Metronome be a special attack that they are weak against, you could probably finish each battle with 3 or 4 attacks.
N._Harmonik
She/Her
Joined: 8/27/2006
Posts: 502
Location: Canada
How about a run with both Rounds? The Pokémon that you rent and the opponents' Pokémon are quite different and you get to rent (Woohoo!) Mew in the the second Round's Prime Cup.
Why, oh, why do I even <i>try</i> to understand my own species?
Joined: 6/14/2004
Posts: 646
All I remember about the Stadium rentals is that Jolteon was an awesome psychic killer thanks to Pin Missile.
I like my "thank you"s in monetary form.
Player (36)
Joined: 10/8/2006
Posts: 284
Alakazam still beat Jolteon in one on one though, making him the best rental pokemon. The only things that stood a chance to him in rentals were Chansey, Persian, Snorlax, Slowbro, and Jynx.
Joined: 4/30/2006
Posts: 480
Location: the secret cow level
It would probably be more interesting if you couldn't manipulate just crits and misses... by finding out exactly when to switch pokemon, for instance, you could run each battle right to the ragged edge. It would leave you with the same feeling as watching a traditional speedrun, when someone runs through half a level with 1hp and you're constantly thinking "if this guy messes up, AT ALL, he's dead!"
Post subject: How to do it...
Chamale
He/Him
Player (182)
Joined: 10/20/2006
Posts: 1355
Location: Canada
Figure out what the fastest pokemon is that knows a 1HKO move, then rent it and 5 pokemon right by it. Then, for all battles, manipulate to fight the slowest opponents from the enemy's team, then manipulate for 3 straight 1HKOs. Hmmm... that might get a little lame... I imagine one battle could last 1 minute, but a 100% run constitutes over 100 battles. And it would be nothing but constant 1HKOs. So it would be very boring, both to make and watch. Here's an idea: Start from a savestate, where all opponents have been beaten except the Elite Four from Gym Leader Castle, the hardest level on the level 100 cup, and with very hard mode unlocked on the minigames. Kill the level 100 cup, then win at every minigame (Note: With the longest mode of game, it is possible to win by winning every game once). The minigames would be utter insanity. Magikarp splash: Duh. Hit A at the first moment possible and hold long enough to hit the button. Clefairy says: Wait for a long time, then hit every button at the last moment. Maybe manipulate so each CPU gets only one mistake, and all on the last round. Running rattata: Tap A at 30 hertz, and jump whenever for the jumps. Again, manipulate for fast opponents, but barely too slow. Snore war: Manipulate for sucky opponents who lose almost immediately. Power plant: Hitting buttons at max speed to win almost instantly. Sushi-go-round: Manipulate to get massive comboes of the 1000-point food. Ekans' hoop hurl: Get. Every. Target. Rock harden: Manipulate for crap opponents. Digdigdig: KILL!! 30 hertz pwnz a11 Then kill the Elite Four with yet more Fissure/Horn Drill/Guillotine.
Chamale
He/Him
Player (182)
Joined: 10/20/2006
Posts: 1355
Location: Canada
I have a weird ability to kill a topic with an excessively long post that no one reads through but they think they shouldn't post because I might have said it in my post. I mean, take that post I just did in Pokemon Snap. It's one of the longest posts ever. I think it's longer than the forum rules. On topic, BUMP. Which isn't really on topic.
Player (35)
Joined: 12/18/2005
Posts: 250
Chamale wrote:
I have a weird ability to kill a topic with an excessively long post that no one reads through but they think they shouldn't post because I might have said it in my post. I mean, take that post I just did in Pokemon Snap. It's one of the longest posts ever. I think it's longer than the forum rules.
Don't worry, I still replied to it! ^^ Just like this one! Seeee! :) For TASing's sake, I think it would be better off with rentals. Since the community already begins games as "a new game" with no sram, no nothing, we might as well continue the tradition by pretending we don't have a gameboy (or DMG, for those that want to use the term... don't flame plz T_T) and a pokemon game with all the pokemon. =/ I'd be pretty happy to watch it though. I've only played it once or twice but watching it in 3D should prove amusing/fun. =]
我々を待ち受けなさい。
Skilled player (1099)
Joined: 8/26/2006
Posts: 1139
Location: United Kingdom
If anyone is running this I will personally shake their hand if they can keep it entertaining. To fully run this you need to win all 10 cups and Gym leader castle both in round 1 and round 2 and beat Mewtwo both times. All this with rentals as well. This run would probably be many hours long, it would be very repetitive and it isn't helped by the fact that you effectively need to beat it twice.
Former player
Joined: 2/12/2007
Posts: 105
So, your doing the entertaining in the Pokemon Stadium. Do they have the speed run in Pokemon Stadium? Do you use the Luck-Manipulation to make the opponent misses you in every turn? Can you create the entertaining part of the Pokemon's?
N._Harmonik
She/Her
Joined: 8/27/2006
Posts: 502
Location: Canada
Do a few rental Pokémon really do have one-hit-knockout moves (i.e., Fissure, Guillotine and Horn Drill)? Maybe we can avoid using those ones. Although, we must remember that Guillotine and Horn Drill won't affect Ghost types and Fissure won't affect Flying types.
Why, oh, why do I even <i>try</i> to understand my own species?
Mitjitsu
He/Him
Banned User
Joined: 4/24/2006
Posts: 2997
There is the mini games, perhaps optimizing each game with 1 or 4 players might be better.
Chamale
He/Him
Player (182)
Joined: 10/20/2006
Posts: 1355
Location: Canada
I say again: At most, crush the elite four and level 100 cup in round 2. At least have a battle against the computer. But the minigames could be almost a focus.
gia
Player (109)
Joined: 5/3/2006
Posts: 223
I need help from researchers, I extracted all the trainer data from Pokemon Stadium because it was damn easy, but hit a wall with pokemon stadium 2. Is there any resource out there that explains the -> data structure <- and hex values for common things on the gsc era? (items, moves, pokemon, etc). I tried to use my rby knowledge but I couldn't find any area with pokemon data (rentals or trainers) on the rom, im so not scanning the 64MB manually. With the data out maybe people will try a tas or speedrun.
Joined: 6/6/2004
Posts: 223
http://bulbapedia.bulbagarden.net/wiki/Pok%C3%A9mon_data_structure_in_the_GBC Assuming Stadium doesn't gut the storage format from GB, try searching for the following consecutive byte string, which would represent R2 Rival's Mewtwo, and see if other 48-byte strings nearby might represent other Pokemon. I'm not sure, but the first set of ??s might be 07 D0 in case you can't do a consecutive-byte search with wild cards in the middle. 96 52 5E 42 55 69 ?? ?? 13 12 D0 FF FF FF FF FF FF FF 0A 19 0F 14 ?? ?? ?? ?? 64 ?? ?? 01 9F 01 9F 01 5E 01 16 01 66 01 96 01 16 As time goes on, though, I'm becoming less convinced that a Stadium TAS could ever be interesting enough. In low level cups, it's quite possible to get a perfect cup (all OHKOs, opponent never takes any action) unassisted and with minimal luck manipulation, while still using a diverse set of Pokemon. All a TAS can bring to the table for that is streamlining the attack selection process down to the absolute fastest, and possibly choosing the attacks with the shortest possible animations that still get in for lethal. However, once you get into Poke and Prime (and I guess GLC by extension), too many Pokemon are resilient enough to withstand any standard damage-dealing attack, and you can't get any significant edge attempting to out-level them. Therefore the only viable strategy for a speed-oriented run would be to blast moves like Horn Drill through most opponents, and by the time you get to using something with a Quick Claw and Fissure and Horn Drill, it's like you're not even playing Pokemon any more, you're just playing an entirely predictable solo target practice game that inserts 30-second time delays after each stab for no real reason and that just looks a lot slower than it ought to be in a game like that, not to mention drives most of the audience to sleep or to watching something else by the time they get around to the 96th turn of that crazy little game.
gia
Player (109)
Joined: 5/3/2006
Posts: 223
thank you very much! I'll try to find the data, but if I am correct they stored the data grouped by variables instead of by pokemon, which means it will be very annoying to extract, so far I found the area that has the pokemon nicknames and the messages the trainers say during battle. They also seem to store the data in their own structure and build the stats on the fly (or to store it with a bit offset) because I couldn't find the string for the move's PP of a rental pokemon. That or they compressed the data, hope not. yes, you are correct I came to the same conclusion after doing the first two gym leader castles unassisted (it was... tiring :D). BUT. Those videos are the ones that get the most views out of the videos I have on youtube, which leads me to believe that regardless of what would the tas/speedrun represent they have an audience waiting patiently. (although my videos only have 4 battles on each, which means they work as "episodic" and wouldn't be as boring as to watch it all in one go...). Also remember the taser could manipulate critical hits too.