mrz
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sorry to open a old topic but wanted to ask something. in yi2, what makes the moles under the vine block invincible? is there any way to fix this? i noticed this for a long time and was wondering if there is a fix
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Hello everyone, As some of you know, I've started working on an improvement of the 96 exit run. The reason I'm posting is I'd like to get some input from everyone on a specific topic, fadeout lag. For those of you who don't know, after each exit (regular goal post exit, key exit, boss exit), during the fadeout sequence, the game lags. How much it lags depends on a number of factors, the most important one being your score. In the past, worrying about fadeout lag for the 100% runs (96 exit Super Mario World and 120 exit Super Demo World) has been considered unnecessary and or stupid, because optimizing it is such a difficult task. Your score has to be carefully planned throughout each level, with all upcoming levels in mind. Basically an impossible task for the 100% runs. Of course, it also puts a very serious restraint on what you can do, which enemies you can kill, which shells you can bounce off of, etc. Now, what I've planned to do for this upcoming run is to handle fadeout lag the same way me and JXQ handled regular lag in our 120 exit Super Demo World run (a game filled with lag), trying to optimize it within each level. In SDW, when we would go back maybe 15 levels to change something, we would lose all the time gained from that improvement when returning to the "current" levels, because of much less favorable lag. Because of this, we decided to complete each level as fast as we could from its current starting state, not worrying about redoing half the run and hope for more favorable lag. In the same way, for this run I've planned to optimize fadeout lag in each exit seperately, meaning I'd try to manipulate the score within each exit to produce the best fadeout time for that particular exit. To put things in perspective, in most exits we're talking about optimal fadeout having 0 extra lag frames and worst possible fadeout having maybe 4-5. In some exits (particularly boss exits), the difference can be much greater. Now, there are some pretty good reasons why this is not a good idea. The main argument is, like I said, it likely would limit what I can do for entertainment pretty severely, and I'm certainly not convinced redoing this run and ending up with a faster but more boring movie is something I want to do. Furthermore, doing this is a quite tedious process and would definitely make progress much slower, as well as increasing the chances of me wanting to give up. All in all, I'm not sure what to do here. Everybody's input would be greatly appreciated. Thanks. Edit: To clarify, this wouldn't come close to saving 5 frames per exit, since in many cases optimal (0 extra frames of lag) fadeout lag won't be possible from that level's starting score at all, and I of course don't have the worst possible fadeout lag in every exit of my old run. This will likely be your only chance to personally have a significant impact on this run, so speak up please!
Zoey Ridin' High <Fabian_> I prett much never drunk
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Personally, if optimizing fadeout lag requires you to not be as creative, funny, or entertaining as you would normally be, screw it and just mark the five or whatever frames as a loss. But then again, I prefer superplays over speedruns (although both are good), so my priorities are at keeping it interesting to watch without worrying about minor 10-frame losses.
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seconded. I'd say why work so much harder on making another run, optimazing the lag when it would decrease the entertainment severely and produce very few time gain? Your current 120 run is beyond fantastic as it is, so I say don't attempt it because it's not needed.
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I should also mention... This ingenious hack by a friend of mine might prove useful for dealing with lag.
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I agree, I appreciate movies for their value in real time, and how am I supposed to notice up to 5 frames of lag? That being said, perhaps you can make it a secondary goal, like if you can come up with an entertaining way to optimize the lag I would be all for it.
<Zurreco> if so called professional players cant adapt to every playing field, theyre obviously not that great
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Yeah I wouldnt worry about fadeout lag in this run. I'm willing to stare at a black screen for a few more frames if it means the levels are more entertaining.
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thegreginator wrote:
I'm willing to stare at a black screen for a few more frames if it means the levels are more entertaining.
Well I'm not. You wasted 5 frames of my life. I want those back immediately!
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Fabian, my opinion is (whatever its worth) I do not care or could spot 4-5 frames of lag.
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I enjoyed this movie in which hands firmly gripping a shaft lead to balls deep in multiple holes.
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I don't want to get involved in this discussion, but as a point of fact C# is literally the first goddamn thing on that fucking page you linked did you even fucking read it
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mrz
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yea noone can spot any few frames of lag, and just a 11exit reducing lag is pretty darn hard :p
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I say forget about fadeout lag for 96 exit run, because if you really wanted to save time at the cost of entertainment and pain you would just skip 85 more exits.
g,o,p,i=1e4,a[10001];main(x){for(;p?g=g/x*p+a[p]*i+2*!o: 53^(printf("%.4d",o+g/i),p=i,o=g%i);a[p--]=g%x)x=p*2-1;}
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I say: The whole point of TASing is to optimize the number of frames needed to complete the game. Therefore, I think that redoing the game with fadeout lag in mind is, admittedly, hard but still rewarding. Also, afaik, there have been some other improvements as far as SMW-speedrunning goes since the last version was completed, allowing for an even more significant improvement. Good luck to you.
JXQ
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In the levels with extreme fadeout lag, you might want to try and optimizing, like Castle 1, probably Castle 7, Fortresses, and the Big Boo fight. The difference on the other levels though is pretty negligible. Flagitious makes a very good point.
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flagitious wins.
It's hard to look this good. My TAS projects
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Gorling wrote:
I say: The whole point of TASing is to optimize the number of frames needed to complete the game. Therefore, I think that redoing the game with fadeout lag in mind is, admittedly, hard but still rewarding. Also, afaik, there have been some other improvements as far as SMW-speedrunning goes since the last version was completed, allowing for an even more significant improvement. Good luck to you.
Besdies flying after entering a doorway, what new techniques are there?
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adelikat wrote:
flagitious wins.
I can't disagree with that one.
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I've been thinking some more about this. After reading your opinions and considering what I'm giving up and what I gain, I've decided to, like previous full runs, not care about fadeout lag for most exits. Realistically, I'm looking at no more than one frame on average for the normal exits, while probably doubling (not an exaggeration) the amount of work I'd need to do for each exit. Couple this with a worse looking (because of more limitations) overall end result, and I think the decision is pretty easy. I will make sure the important levels don't have doom lag. I will also probably write a more detailed submission text, so you can all read about detailed stuff like fadeout lag, if you're interested. Thanks for the input guys, I appreciate it.
Zoey Ridin' High <Fabian_> I prett much never drunk
mrz
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I was actually starting a small only minimalist run. I was wondering if it would be even worth submitting? I asked skamastaG for example and he said it will just be like the 86 or so run. I agree on this but I also think a minimalist run will be more obsoleted and beaten, and I thought this is a good way to start it off, what do you guys think? If it isn't worth submitting then it isn't worth even doing. So anyway heres a preview http://dehacked.2y.net/microstorage.php/info/2712/small%20only.smv Thanks, Mrz
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Nice Mrz, I like it But see if everyone agree before finishing it
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Is there really a point to a small only run? I don't think i would want to see one, sorry.
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Mrz, doing a small-only minimalist run would be very pointless. SkamastaG and I are already working on a full (86-exit) small run, and a minimalist version of this run would be very repetitive. It would look the exact same as our run, and would even take the exact same route and use the exact same strategies. I would not submit this run and just wait for skamastaG and I to finish our run, which will show everything that would occur in a small minimalist run plus more.
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Vatchern wrote:
Is there really a point to a small only run? I don't think i would want to see one, sorry.
<adelikat> I am skeptical of the entertainment value of it, how will small only differ from the regular run? <adelikat> I guess no shortcuts that involve the cape <thegreginator> there is a very significant difference <adelikat> I am a smw noob so I guess I can't imagine what the run is like very well <adelikat> are there any cool glitches/shortcuts/coo stuff that you can do that you normally couldn't in the normal run? <thegreginator> well being small makes the game much more challenging because it makes it very hard to access certain areas and requires crazy new methods to do so <adelikat> so certain exits SHOULD be impossible small but you show off your mad skillz and get them anyway? <thegreginator> right :) <adelikat> ok, that is more interesting <adelikat> but more esoteric, you have to know smw enough to know how impossible it is <adelikat> I see why you are worried about it being a concept/demo <JXQ> it will depend on the level <adelikat> it has much in common with bisqwit's walkathon <JXQ> some will be way differnet and much cooler <JXQ> some will be hopping versions of cape levels <thegreginator> adelikat i just PMed you 5 minutes later: <adelikat> hoyl fuck <jimsfriend> it eats through invisible blocks <adelikat> thegreginator already has my yes vote shortly afterward: <JXQ> hahaha <DK64_MASTER> LOL <jimsfriend> yep <jimsfriend> it's that good <DK64_MASTER> adelikat, it's an awesome run <mrz_> yeah! <DK64_MASTER> from what I've seen <DK64_MASTER> concept demo my ass <JXQ> seen castle 2 yet, adelikat? <DK64_MASTER> it makes all the other runs look like concept demos <adelikat> so I have something to luck foward to in 2010 <JXQ> awesome quote there DK64 <DK64_MASTER> c#2 is great <JXQ> jimsfriend, I'm thinking.. <adelikat> luck=look <adelikat> it won't be a concept demo but the only reason I can think of compared to bisqwit's walkathon is that this goal is bad ass <DK64_MASTER> heh A small run will blow your pants off. If you like the current SMW runs, you'll love the small run.
<agill> banana banana banana terracotta pie! <Shinryuu> ho-la terracotta barba-ra anal-o~
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DK64_MASTER wrote:
Vatchern wrote:
Is there really a point to a small only run? I don't think i would want to see one, sorry.
<JXQ> seen castle 2 yet, adelikat? <DK64_MASTER> it makes all the other runs look like concept demos <adelikat> so I have something to luck foward to in 2010 <JXQ> awesome quote there DK64 <DK64_MASTER> c#2 is great
Castle 2? WTH?
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SpiDeY wrote:
DK64_MASTER wrote:
Vatchern wrote:
Is there really a point to a small only run? I don't think i would want to see one, sorry.
<JXQ> seen castle 2 yet, adelikat? <DK64_MASTER> it makes all the other runs look like concept demos <adelikat> so I have something to luck foward to in 2010 <JXQ> awesome quote there DK64 <DK64_MASTER> c#2 is great
Castle 2? WTH?
Yeah, SMW world small, max% (all possible exits) run. I won't spoil it for you. Prepared to be rocked.
<agill> banana banana banana terracotta pie! <Shinryuu> ho-la terracotta barba-ra anal-o~
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mrz wrote:
I was actually starting a small only minimalist run. I was wondering if it would be even worth submitting? I asked skamastaG for example and he said it will just be like the 86 or so run. I agree on this but I also think a minimalist run will be more obsoleted and beaten, and I thought this is a good way to start it off, what do you guys think? If it isn't worth submitting then it isn't worth even doing. So anyway heres a preview http://dehacked.2y.net/microstorage.php/info/2712/small%20only.smv Thanks, Mrz
Like greginator said, this would be way too identical to their 86 exit run. I mean it's the exact same run, minus grabbing Yoshi coins.
Zoey Ridin' High <Fabian_> I prett much never drunk