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CoolKirby wrote:
Good work, both of you, and thanks for keeping YoungJ and I on as coauthors! SuperSqank, thanks for sharing your knowledge and improving the run. Alyosha, thanks for resyncing and improving, and congrats on achieving sub 28!
I saved 177 more frames using the trick I noted in the published run's submission text: kicking the last gray lemur (or two, if they're close enough together) to make it run instead of walk to the right. Because the level ends when the 20th lemur reaches the right side of the screen, this saves almost 3 seconds. Foosa Arena is now a 0:50 IGT, and it's likely it can go lower with better RNG manipulation in the future. I used GBAHawk so it's ready to console verify and have a judge replace this submission, if there are no more improvements.
SuperSqank wrote:
CoolKirby/JCool stated that they could get as low as a 45 IGT in this level.
JCool and I are different people. Unless he also said that, which would be a funny coincidence.
Awesome to see you come back and further improve the TAS. You and YoungJ did a really good job with the original TAS and it helped us formulate the RTA run for this game as well. This game has a really neat speedrun and you guys truly pioneered the run. I did know you guys were separate people but I messed up writing your names in my post. That is my fault, apologies. Thank you for returning and pushing this game even further.
50 IGT on the final level is super cool to see. Ideally, we would be able to get that RNG or better in the final level without resetting and without losing significant time elsewhere in the run but the RNG in Final Battle is definitely strange. I couldn't figure out how it works. It is possible to save more time earlier in the run but it could mess up the RNG on Final Battle. It is definitely an odd level to say the least.
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Alyosha wrote:
Actually with 2 reset manipulations i get an even better fight than the mgba version!
Sop i think I'll go with that one. Will post file once i verify it.
EDIT: new file: https://tasvideos.org/UserFiles/Info/638530569368963240
Please replace the movie file with this one.
updating temp encode, console verified
Oh wow, nice. That is a lot faster. I guess I will mention that I did actually find some time saves in the beach section of Island Getaway which saved about 14 frames although it completely messed up the RNG in the final boss and I couldn’t find a way to salvage it. I also regret my rating for the run now.
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Nice run. I’m not particularly familiar with this game but one thing I can say is that you can fully skip dialogue boxes with the start button. That’s the only improvement I can think of however, the rest of the run seems clean.
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Alyosha wrote:
^ Thanks for the detailed comments. Are you interested in improving the TAS? This run is short and sync friendly enough that it could be improved relatively easily so I don't mind just cancelling it.
I have made an updated TAS. https://tasvideos.org/UserFiles/Info/638530054286630870
It saves approximately 21-22 seconds compared to Alyosha's update. I think it should be a sub 28 when resynced to GBAHawk but even if it isn't, it should be very close. The main time saves come from much heavier use of double/triple jump storage along with not having to reset in the final level. There are various other optimisations and time saves as well. The final level should end at 1:38 IGT. For reference, I'll also put up a video link to the run.
Link to video
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I’m cool with looking at it. I was actually interested in TASing the game myself, willing to remake the whole thing. I will see what I can do and I will look into sending you an improved movie when I’m done. Could you provide a BK2 or TASPROJ file for the run?
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Hi. I am the current RTA WR holder in this game. I highly appreciate you console verifying the TAS, it is pretty neat to see. What I would like to say though is that there is more stuff which has been found in this game since the original TAS and a TAS could definitely go a fair bit lower. This is mainly due to new exploits which lead to new skips in some levels. I'll link the current WR and I'll explain some of the stuff. You can see the RTA WR as a reference to the strats I explain.
Link to video
Double jump storage - In the TAS, it was known that if you landed on a bounce pad as Alex or Melman, you can switch characters and the next time you switch to Alex/Melman while jumping as another character, you can double jump with them. This could also give you a triple jump. However, you can also get this double jump storage by either jumping or falling off an edge with Alex/Melman. This can save time in various places although a TAS would have to experiment thoroughly to make the most out of it. I'll be mentioning some of the main double/triple jump storage strats in this thread but it can definitely be utilised in more areas.
Melman's double jump - I'm not certain if this was known in the TAS but if you do Melman's double jump while not holding a direction, you will double jump with full speed. This is especially useful when jumping with Marty and then using double jump storage with Melman.
Fast Fall - if you are about to run off an edge and you switch to a character with a skinnier collision box, you will drop off that ledge faster. This is most applicable when switching from Marty to Alex. This can be utilised in a few areas. The main areas I can think of are at the end of Jungle Dub and at the beginning of Foosa Lair section 3.
Lemur Liberation - In section 1 at the beginning, you can use a triple jump to get up to the 3rd Lemur. You collect the first lemur by jumping as Alex and then you run off the platform as Melman. I am not 100% certain if this route is faster but it is worth looking into. There might also be a faster way to do the 8-11 Lemur section with Alex and the end section could maybe be done faster with proper double/triple jump storage.
In section 2, you can get to the 18th Lemur faster. Instead of running to the branch on the right and then slowly jumping back, you can set up triple jump storage, then jump with Marty before reaching the Foosa and then triple jump up to the 18th Lemur/the branch.
At the beginning of section 3, you can get double jump storage with Melman, double jump with Alex and then triple jump as Melman to get to the top and collect a Lemur. You can then run through the next part and quickly back track in the cave to get all the Lemurs. This is a fair bit faster than crawling through the cave and then backtracking to the upper Lemurs. Double jump storage could also potentially save time in other areas in this level.
Wild World - At the beginning of section 2, instead of doing the slow upwards climb, you can run through the cave, setup up triple jump storage and then triple jump onto the top of the next cave. Later on, instead of using Melman to open up the floor, you can get double jump storage with Melman and then double jump with Alex and then triple jump with Melman to the top.
Island Getaway - I think this level could benefit from more efficient double jump storage but I don't have a lot to say otherwise.
Alex's Claws - After saving the last Lemur, you do not have to go to the left wall in order to climb up. You can double jump up to the rightside wall and at the peak of your double jump, pause and unpause. If you do this correctly, you will grab onto the wall, removing the need to backtrack to the left wall.
Foosa Lair - I believe optimising this level quickly would mainly involve utilising double jump storage in section 3. You could maybe use the pause climb trick to optimise the level as well.
Foosa Arena - There is no way that resetting the level 5 times is optimal. I have gotten 38 IGT without the need for any resetting. I highly believe that there must be a more optimal way to manipulate the RNG in this level. CoolKirby/JCool stated that they could get as low as a 45 IGT in this level. This level is absolutely worth looking into.
And those are all the main notes I have. I highly appreciate you console verifying the run and wanting to improve the run. This is a neat game and as an RTA runner who knows that this game can go lower, I highly appreciate someone wanting to improve the TAS. With that being said however, there is definitely more work which could be done with this run. The improvements are a start but there are a lot more which can be implemented. I can absolutely see a lower time than the original TAS being possible with the emulation timeloss.
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Level 3 is done. I also managed to save time in the first two levels with an altered route on level 1 and a new exploit which skips the end of level cutscenes.
Link to video
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I finished level 2 and I managed to save close to a minute compared to the last WIP with a new exploit. Clover Slide allows you to move while using Clover's butterfly and if you look up with the butterfly while sliding, it just breaks the game, allowing to the skip a lot of things.
Link to video
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I have an updated WIP which plays through a chunk of level 2. I've already obsoleted this WIP with new strats but since the new WIP removes some pretty neat strats, I thought I'd post this to not waste the work I did.
Link to video
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I have decided to make a TAS of this game. I have currently TASed the first level in this game out of 5. I started this TAS several days ago but since I haven’t worked on in in some time, I thought I’d might as well share it.
Link to video.
The main exploit in this game we can utilise in a TAS is that we can skip fighting enemies by bypassing them in a specific way. Fights in this game are long and take up a significant portion of gameplay normally so skipping them is extremely helpful. The main potential improvement would be finding a way to skip using the 3rd smoke bomb. You can't reliably skip enemy fights if they are facing backwards. It would save a good few seconds if you could skip that fight quickly but for the moment, I haven't found a better way to skip it outside of using the smoke bomb.
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I first started running Tak: The Great Juju Challenge in 2016 and I believe it would make for a great TAS. The game is filled to the brim with movement tech, exploits, skips and so on. It would take way, way too long to go into absolutely everything in this game, it just has so much stuff that I don't even know where to start. From high jumps to long jumps, from animation cancels to clipping, from skipping large chunks of levels to infinite jumps, this game has a lot. I'll link the current any% WR as of writing this:
Link to video.
A TAS would be able to push the movement in this game to its absolute limits, it can get favourable RNG everywhere and it would be able to exploit the game's co-op much more. In the RTA run, co-op is mainly used to perform drop-in drop-out related strats but a TAS could utilise it much more heavily. The biggest downside with the game as a speedrun however is the proving grounds. They take up over 1/3rd of the run and they are basically just lengthy auto-scrollers. A TAS could heavily playaround in these sections but they are ultimately slow parts of the run that take up a rather significant portion of the run. The game also has an NG+ category where we don't have to play through the proving grounds and we start the game with all the upgrades, leading to faster fights and new strats which cannot be done in any%. I will link the NG+ run as well:
Link to video
I myself am not experienced enough with TASing to TAS this game, this game is far too complex for my skill set. I don't know if anyone will try and TAS this game, it is a big task for a rather forgotten mid 2000s 3D platformer but if anyone would want to take the plunge, I would be more than happy to help out with strat research.
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WarHippy wrote:
We’re getting closer, lol. What I’m saying is to simply stay crouched while the ogre is dying. It looks like you have about 10 frames you can spend waiting before the rock comes back to hurt you. Hopefully the ogre’s hit box will go away fast enough that you can continue past without wasting a bunch of time with that extra jump.
There is pretty much no other way around it. Those rocks are very explicitly designed for you to crouch under them. You can’t jump over them, you can’t walk through them, you very much have to crouch under them. The rock can also easily snipe you off the ledge as you have to wait a bit before you can do anything on the ledge. The rocks have stupidly big hitboxes and they are harder to get around than they look. I found that you could get past the troll without crouching but you still have to crouch under the rock, and you still have to wait for the same rock cycle before you can safely climb up.
While it may not look like it, the crouch under the troll and the jump after the rock were done on the latest/earliest possible frame respectively (this game has deceptively weird hitboxes). The last jump was also performed as early as possible. You can’t get up from the crouch either because you go through a long animation to get back up if you don’t jump. It takes way to long to crawl long enough so the jump will reach the edge (I tested this without crouching under the troll), the rock snipes you straight away. Even if you get past the troll faster, you still have to wait for the same rock cycle (as you hit the button long before the troll can hit you) so you wouldn’t be saving any time. I did look into it but there was simply no way it could really be sped up.
I have finished the final TAS. I could not find any improvements for that section but I did manage to improve other areas in the run.
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WarHippy wrote:
So at 7:56 I mean to simply hold left after you fall off the edge so that you don't grab the pole.
At 9:24 What I'm really asking is, "How long does it take once the ogre gets hit before you can walk past it without taking damage?
7:56. I see. That wouldn't work out well because you would fall down far enough to trigger the birds which slows you down (both horizontally and vertically) and it uses up a music note. Losing out on the note was not too significant but the slowdown from the birds is very significant. It wouldn't have been worth it. I am incorporating my new strat in the final TAS so a Pip drop (Dropping off a ledge with the chipmunk) will be used in that spot in the finished TAS.
9:24 It's only a few frames or so but the problem in that situation is that if you are walking or jumping, you get hit long before the Troll does. Crouching allows you to avoid taking damage from the troll for much longer. In a RTA run, we get a damage boost of the stone in that section, which is faster. The reason I didn't do that in the TAS is because the damage boosts I did earlier in the level save more time and you don't have any more health to do more damage boosts.
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WarHippy wrote:
Looks solid for a first tas. I've got some questions, though:
0:37 and 8:13 - Why can't you damage boost or sing your way past the guy at the ledge?
7:56 - After getting the key can you just fall to the left to avoid grabbing the pole and then moving right?
9:24 - It looks like you can maybe wait about 10 frames for the ogre to fall down instead of jumping. Does it take longer than that before you can run past him without him damaging you? Also is it possible to jump over the swinging rock at its lowest point?
0:37: You get pretty much get no iframes if you get hit by the troll. This game has a weird thing where the amount of damage iframes you get differs from whether you hit a bigger enemy or a smaller enemy/projectile. You also only have your default song which does not do anything to enemies.
8:13: You do get more iframes from the rocks the troll throws but you just barely don't have enough to climb up. I did find just now that you can use the hedgehog to take out the troll using a specific setup but it is going to be rather complex for me to go back and implement as I will have to edit multiple parts of the level. I'll see if I can implement it in the final run, it saves a decent amount of time.
7:56: you can't pick up the key if you are too far away from it while in the picking up animation. You can't drop off a ledge and pick up a key at the same time. I did try sing dropping off that ledge but it actually ended up being a frame slower. Pip dropping is faster and with the Pip section skip at the end of the level I talked about earlier, it would be the way to go. I just didn't do it in this the WIP as Pip was needed in the final section but I'll see if I can implement it in the final run.
9:24: we crouch as that allows you to go under the troll. Walking gets you killed very quickly, same with jumping. Giselle has a weirdly large hurtbox, making enemies more annoying to avoid than they should be. It is not possible to jump over the swinging rock, deceptively big hitbox.
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I am creating a TAS for this game. I have the RTA record in this game and I was so eager to see a TAS that I decided to learn how to TAS and take a crack at it myself. This WIP goes through the first 8 levels in this game (there are 12 in total). This game has quite a few tricks up its sleeve which I largely found during my time doing RTA runs and we can really take full advantage of those tricks in a TAS setting.
Link to video
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The original TAS for this game was posted in 2014 and it has of course been quite a while since then. I am the current RTA WR holder for this and from my time running the game, I have found/figured out some things. The main thing is double jump storage. The previous TASers knew that you could store Alex/Melman’s double jumps by landing on a bounce pad with them and then switching characters but what I don’t think they realised (or at least they didn’t take full advantage of) is that you can get double jump storage anywhere with these characters. If you jump or run off a platform with Alex/Melman and then switch characters, that will also give you double jump storage. This can be used in a whole bunch of areas. This also means that you can get triple jump storage which does have a few uses. There are a few triple jump strats in the RTA run which save time over the TAS.
That is the main thing but there are also some other things. This game has a fast fall technique where if you switch characters as you are running off a platform (easiest to do from Marty to Alex), you will drop down much faster, mainly being useful when you need to drop down without needing to move too far in one direction. There is also a way to slightly extend Alex’s claw climb. If you double jump and then pause and unpause at the peak of your jump, you can claw grip onto ledges slightly higher than normal. We can use this in the last lemur level after collecting the last lemur to grab a wall we normally can’t without climbing another wall. Those are the main things I remember, I will link the current WR which shows off the new skips/exploits compared to the TAS.
Link to video
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Wow, it has been a while since this thread has been posted in. I am the current RTA WR holder in this game and the RTA record has gone down a lot since this thread was active. The RTA record was 1:02 when Dwainium posted his last WIP but now, the RTA record is currently sitting at just under 55 minutes.
Link to video
A couple of discoveries have been made since the last WIP with the most major being that you can skip pretty much the whole of the third section of Skyline Stretch by jumping from the beginning of the section up to the top where the end of the level is. It saves close to a minute compared to playing through the whole section. Dwainium has not worked on the TAS in quite a while from what I know so this game has been in a static position for quite some time went it comes to a TAS. This game would make for a great TAS with numerous skips which have not been implemented in an RTA run but TASing this game has its step backs. We do have to TAS the GC version which has noticeable disadvantages compared to the XBOX version (the fastest version for RTA runs). Loads are much slower, the framerate is worse which meaningfully slows down the run and some skips are patched in the GameCube version which is a real shame. And with a new massive skip in the second level, the TAS would have to be restarted.
I just thought I'd give an update on this game. This is a game I am very fond of and I am hoping that it will receive a TAS one day.