Editor, Skilled player (1437)
Joined: 3/31/2010
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Alright, here's the newest run. I improved a whole 9 frames on PPW 1-3 by positioning the plum better so I hit the goal earlier. Anguish Lagoon is a pretty annoying level, with lots of dullness I can't help with. I'm probably gonna redo the entire level. This is more of a test run and here to help illustrate some of my notes below: Well, here are some notes: AL 2-1 - I am unsure how to approach the first plum the best. You have to punch it to get it to move. You can't reach the second plum instantly, so this gives me one of the rare opportunities to show Rayman's tongue-stick out animation, which will get replaced with the running ability once I get it. - I only get one cage, as opposed to CaD, who took a slight detour to get another one in his run. Again, I want to save it for the running power. I'll need to check however, how many Frames Rayman needs turning around in midair running and not running to determine what is faster. - The fastest way to get past the first hunter is to stop walking for exactly one frame, then continue and proceed to jump over him. - The Moskito fight I don't think has a lot of optimization potential, except for more showing off tricks while he's idling. - I most likely could've placed the first punch earlier though. When Moskito dies, Rayman moves to a predefined spot to do his victory animation. I'll need to check wether it's faster already standing at that place or not. - The Moskito Ride scene is woefully boring, with little I can do to splice it up, except maybe getting close to prickled berries. - Moskito controls very unresponsively though, so it's damn annoying to do so. - I avoid any Speed Fists, because they will make plum boosting quite a bit harder, which I likely will need at least once more. - Don't think there's any way to reach the goal faster other than to hug the right edge of the screen. - Don't think there's anything in the Betilla scene to be improved. Perhaps I could approach that ledge from a different angle to grab on to it quicker, but I don't think so. Well, any comments would be highly appreciated.
Joined: 11/4/2007
Posts: 1772
Location: Australia, Victoria
scrimpeh, clicking the Minor Edit button when you're making edits that seem to have no perceivable visual difference would be nice, because you're clogging up the IRC with edit messages, and honestly, you're agitating quite a few of us.
Editor, Skilled player (1437)
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Whoopsies, I'm sorry. Weird thing is, I can't post for some reason, which is why there are so many edits. Well, I'll stop this.
Active player (328)
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Posts: 786
Oh, interesting. Someone picked up this game. I know that there is some sort of a "frame rule", 7 frames or something, for exiting stages. that's why you can overlap the ! sign sometimes and you won't exit until a few frames later. I think you messed up the moskito fight. In my run, I first manipulate him into flying to the very center of the screen before punching him for the first time. Otherwise, he goes into his "dizzy" animation and flies there himself, which is considerably slower. As for getting those cages the first time around, that was more of a stylistic choice. Those cages I got were mere frames out of the way, so I could not foresee very much of a difference between getting them now and coming back for them later with the running power if I'd just have to run through the whole level anyway. Unlike the cages in, say, Allegro Presto, which you pretty much have to skip then come back later, I doubt the margin of difference in getting the two other cages I got is anything more than 20 frames one way or the other. There is a cheat code to give yourself all the powers. You could try testing it with that. I didn't think of that when I was doing the run. I recommend going to get the helicopter hair before heading up to Moskito's Nest. Why? Because with it, you can get all the cages in Swamps of Forgetfulness on the first runthrough. On this route, I believe you can also get all the cages in Moskito's Nest on the first runthrough... kinda. See here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lKQxmnntNM4
Editor, Skilled player (1437)
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Well, thanks for the notes, CaD. Your run helped me a great deal finding optimizations I missed. http://dehacked.2y.net/microstorage.php/info/1512957481/rayman-taswip3-6-19-10.vbm Well, here's the newest WIP. I'm currently struggling on optimizing the Moskito ride (either I'm struggling, or I'm just horribly lazy), still, Moskito speeds up at two points, and I don't know wether it's based on the position of the screen or the one of Rayman. For the Moskito Fight itself, the fastest way I found is to jump into him below when he approaches the center of the screen, where you have a small window (1 - 2 frames perhaps) where you can land a punch on him before you take a hit. After that, it's mostly hitting him the first frame possible. I've also realized it's probably faster to get the second cage in AL 2-1 on the first run, because of the fact that hitting the exit sign saves all your cages. Since all cages I can't get on the first run are in AL 2-1, it'll save a good bit of time on the cage roundup. On that note, I'd say it's faster to get the last cage in Moskito's Nest with the running power. It'll waste some time on the world map, but the running likely will more than make up for it. I did a quick test. It is possible to get up to the ledge earlier than in your video (using a boost from the plum on the tree on the second island). The fastest way out would likely be a deathwarp. Dropping down in the water would work, but may take too much time. Alternatively, I could get hit by the prickled berries and let the first enemy kill me. However, with the running power, I can already jump to the second island after the first, so that means, only one or two hits. I'll have to get hit by the others at some other place.
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That fight looks MUCH better! Good job. As for the riding part, I thought for certain that it's simply an auto-scroll, and the best you can do is hit the exit sign at the first possible opportunity... I don't think any of your actions affect how fast the level goes by. And yeah, you're right about Moskito's Nest. Definitely get the running power before that last cage, it's waaay too far out of the way.
Editor, Skilled player (1437)
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Anguish Lagoon's done Notes: - It does seem Rayman's position during the ride affects how fast the level goes by. I did two quick tests where I hugged the left and the right edge of the screen during the speed-up parts, and the latter proved to by faster by a whole 36 frames (I don't know how much lag factored in this, though). There indeed is a frame-rule for touching the goal, but I haven't been able to figure the actual pattern to it yet. Well, that's it for now. Not really looking forward to Bongo Hills. Likely gonna be the most boring stage in the game, especially because I'll have to go through it twice.
Editor, Skilled player (1437)
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So, I've come to the conclusion the game has a frame-rule for everything. Collecting tings, falling clouds, whatever. So, after lots of laziness, I've gone through Bongo Hills 1. I guess there are some improvements to be found in this, but for the moment, I'm satisfied with it. http://dehacked.2y.net/microstorage.php/info/1626287602/rayman-taswip3-7-1-10.vbm /edit: Yup, my assumption was correct. After another runthrough, I managed to chop off another 51 frames from Bongo Hills 1. Next up: Bongo Hills 2, which I'm not really looking forward to do. /edit2 completed bongo hills 2 and 3 now. this game even has timers for getting hurt as far as I can see, which is how you're able to get into spiked balls: you just need to get out before the frame rule strikes. so it seems, anyway. /edit3 bongo hills 4 done. very annoying stage, due to frame timers involved I couldn't beat regardless of how many different ways I tried, and the fact that I had to go through it twice. At least I saved 12 frames on my seocnd runthrough. http://dehacked.2y.net/microstorage.php/info/1185045551/rayman-taswip3-7-6-10.vbm
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Watching now. Bongo Hills 2: AT the end, did you check to see if it's faster to carry the same rocket up instead of jumping to the very last one? Bongo Hills 3: Aha, you ran into the same problem I did with that one antitoon at the very beginning. I remember finding a way around that without pausing, though. Bongo Hills 4: I like your playaround, my only complaint is that you didn't let it spin you down into the spiked notes at all. There are many places it can do that without harming you.
Editor, Skilled player (1437)
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Aye, thanks for the notes. BH2: The fastest way to get on the last rocket is to get off the second one as early as possible. I hadn't tried to ride the second one up to the goal before, but it seems you can't really round the corner there. When I tried, this happened. Unfortunately, I'm stuck there, but I'll have to look into that some more. BH3: Yeah, I'll have to look into that some more. BH4: People not familiar with the game might not realize the spikes are supposed to hurt you, so I prefer showing off frame-precise jumps instead.
Editor, Skilled player (1437)
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Posts: 2106
Bongo Hills done! BH5 was a pain to optimize. I decided to go for the cage just like CAD did. While it is slower, especially when I lack various fist powerups that force me to get closer to the cage, it does avoid a rather unelegant wait for a moving cloud. Call it a speed-entertainment tradeoff, if you will. I also manage to get the cage quite a bit faster than CAD did. I also have not been able to replicate the Marocket-glitch anywhere but where I showed it in the movie. In a worst-case scenario, you can only do this if the ceiling is connected to the top of the stage, e.g. useless. I guess that Rayman's Position, the Rocket's Position and some Frame Rule all need to agree so this glitch can be done. Next up is Allegro Presto, which is gonna be difficult to optimize due to all the slippery notes. This is also where CAD's run ends, so I also lack a solid base to compare my times to.
Editor, Skilled player (1437)
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AP-1 is done I approach the goal with a jump because not doing so would cause Rayman to jump on his own once he'd hit the end of the slope. Since you need to be standing to hit the goal sign, this would waste a few frames. All of this would be so much simpler if the goal sign didn't have a frame rule. I decide to ignore all cages in this runthrough, because all of them are connected to some detour. I want to have the running power first before approaching those. The second segment will be even harder to optimize with all those trumpets blasting you around. If you're standing still, using a fully-charged fist on slipperies gives you a good boost backwards, so that's how I am seeking to approach the first trumpet.
Editor, Skilled player (1437)
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Alright: To help me optimize Allegro Prestro, I have attempted to isolate a few RAM values. Could anyone help me verify wether those are correct? 02000008 - X Camera Position (resets at 512) 0202EE88 - Fist Charge Up (maxes out at 63) 0202E5DC - X Position 0202FA66 - X Speed (very sensitive) / here's the .wch 4 00000 02000008 w s 0 X Camera Position (?) 00001 0202EE88 w s 0 Fist Charge Up (?) 00002 0202E5DC d u 0 X Position (?) 00003 0202FA66 d s 0 X Speed (?)
Editor, Skilled player (1437)
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http://dehacked.2y.net/microstorage.php/info/440525332/rayman-taswip3-7-31-10.vbm AP2 and AP3. I'm probably going to redo both of these, because all there is probably some optimization in both of these. Notes: - while the RAM watch shows values that are higher, Rayman's Speed is capped somewhere. I assume it can't go higher than the speed you get when sliding down a steep slope. (117-something, normal walking speed is 33-something) - on straight slipperies, jumping is somewhat faster then walking. when sliding down at high speeds, jumping will however slow you down a bit (doubt it makes a difference, with the speed capped) - when jumping at high speeds (>100-something) and smacking into a wall, it'll slow you down to (50 something) by avoiding the walls when falling to the photographer in AP-3, I can go at speeds higher than I should. - AP-3 is a very annoying level, because there are tons of places where you can build up quite a respectable amount of velocity, only to have some obstacle slow you down Anyway, let me know what you think
Post subject: Encode of the latest WIP
Joined: 4/14/2010
Posts: 146
Location: France
Encode of the latest WIP: Link to video Also downloadable on MediaFire.
GabCM
He/Him
Joined: 5/5/2009
Posts: 901
Location: QC, Canada
Oh hello. With his permission, I'm continuing scrimpeh's TAS. As a result, it will be a collaborative work. That means everything else you've seen so far is untouched, and I'm simply making the rest. So, here's the first WIP of our work. Click here to download the VBM. And below is an SD encode from the WIP. Link to video My part starts right at the beginning of the last Music stage. Thanks to scrimpeh for finding this big shortcut at the beginning. Then, for the following Jungle stage, I found a trick to climb up faster. Right after I plant a platform plant, I jump an deploy the hair helicopter right before the plant deploys itself. As a result, I get automaticaly on the plant, without jumping after the plant has grown.
Player (117)
Joined: 5/13/2009
Posts: 700
Location: suffern, ny
Holy crap this is amazing! keep up the good work guys!
[19:16] <scrimpy> silly portuguese [19:16] <scrimpy> it's like spanish, only less cool
GabCM
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Joined: 5/5/2009
Posts: 901
Location: QC, Canada
(Post #500) Another WIP, and today, we have taken a huge step (at least 16 minutes) in this TAS. Click here to download the VBM, or look at the encode below. Link to video We were way more cooperative today. I was streaming my TASing session over my Livestream channel while scrimpeh was watching, commenting and sharing tricks. Thanks to him for that!
Player (193)
Joined: 10/23/2010
Posts: 49
Location: Australia
Just curious as to the last level of Swamps of Forgetfullness where you jumped before the fall to the finish. Was that a mistake (as it seems slower than just falling) or on purpose to get all the tings? Other than that there may be a few small mistakes but nothing really jumping at me. Great job so far, several of the tricks used are new to me and getting only 1 point of damage while hitting the same enemy 5 times straight was pretty cool. Can't wait to see this TAS completed.
GabCM
He/Him
Joined: 5/5/2009
Posts: 901
Location: QC, Canada
IsraeliRD wrote:
Just curious as to the last level of Swamps of Forgetfullness where you jumped before the fall to the finish. Was that a mistake (as it seems slower than just falling) or on purpose to get all the tings?
Yeah, that was on porpose to get all the tings, but I think it's unecessary, but since I'm pretty far in the works, I'm not getting back at this point just to save a few frames. If I get to create a whole new movie, I'll avoid that jump. Thanks for pointing that out!
Player (193)
Joined: 10/23/2010
Posts: 49
Location: Australia
MisterEpic, how the TAS is going? :)
Editor, Skilled player (1437)
Joined: 3/31/2010
Posts: 2106
Hello Gentlemen. I haven't heard from MisterEpic in a while, so I'll just say that I have begun to redo my old run from scratch. I still hate that it's on the GBA, but I'm bored and impatient, and I finally want to see a full run of this game. I have already saved 7 frames by pure optimization on the menu alone. I have also discovered a way to jump backwards without wasting time: Pressing L+R makes Rayman moonjump, but you must keep those buttons pressed until the frame Rayman lands on the ground, otherwise you lose 2 frames every time. I'm not sure wether it has any practical use, but it's a neat tool for playing around. I'll upload a WIP once I have something meaningful to show.
Editor, Skilled player (1437)
Joined: 3/31/2010
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Link to video Here's the first stage, Pink Plant Woods again. I've actually found out the speed addresses for the relevant plums now, which should make my life a lot easier. The fastest speed I've gotten a plum to so far was 66, twice Rayman's walking speed. In total, I've saved 120 frames so far, though I may redo the segment to see if there may be even more lurking in here.
Player (193)
Joined: 10/23/2010
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Location: Australia
It's great to see you're restarting, hopefully most mistakes from previous WIPs get eliminated. So far pretty good. The reverse jumping made it look better too.
Editor, Skilled player (1437)
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Alright, keeping with years of tradition, here's me flooding the thread with pointless info. I'm up to moskito now with 144 frames saved overall. I'll be sharing an input file once the level is done. In the meantime, here's a demonstration of how to collect every cage in Anguish Lagoon on the first runthrough. Link to video I won't be using it for the final run in all likeliness though, as the roundup can simply leave the stage through the entry sign. With the running power in my inventory, I'd likely be faster that way. And here's some technical stuff I Figured: - The best way to speed up plums is to have them land on slopes at already high speeds. I'm not sure if the speed they get that way is capped, the fastest I got was 75 (as opposed to 33, rayman's normal walking speed) - Using your fists alone will likely give you a maximum speed of 50 - 55. - Conversely, what you should avoid are upward slopes. Those can wreck your speed. - Usually, a plum will lose 5 speed on every bounce. Doing large bounces is preferrable due to that. - Hitting a plum with your fists while it's already over 30 speed won't speed the plum up, but give it a tiny horizontal boost. This can be used to steer the bouncing of the plum to a small extent. With that knowledge, plums should be cake. All I'd like to know is their x pos value, all I have right now is their x speed. /Edit: Anguish lagoon 1's done, 188 frames saved total, based on even more improvements. I'm also at 15k rerecords already. Wow, those buggers add up quickly.