I have been looking for improvements to popular games for a long time. Recently, when I tried to do the flagpole glitch at walking speed, andrewg_ came up with the PAL version and also pointed out an useful glitch that only works on that version. I started working on this run as a fun project to take a break from my other projects, which I'm not very motivated to do.
The trick above never got used since I managed to do the flagpole glitch with Mario stuck in front of it, so there was no need to enter a floor (and no need to use a bullet bill in 8-2 either). Later, I also managed to enter the wall in 1-2 which prevented me from continuing on this project for a while. Chances were good that this run would save much time over the NTSC TAS.
I'm not sure about the attitude of people towards this TAS which uses the PAL version in order to save time. I don't think it would be very well-received, but since there's no harm in submitting a finished TAS, here it is!
Since this was only a fun project, I didn't bother much about the 21-frame rule. There is also a lag frame in 8-1 that I couldn't remove. I think it's still a pretty good run. I wanted to make this run a little different than the published TAS and I used some different ways of doing things. Maybe you will like it.
So I will leave this one here. Maybe it can be linked from the published movie.
(I would like TASvideos to change its way of presenting its runs in the future.
See here and here for places where I expressed this. This PAL TAS would be a candidate to put onto a page along with other Super Mario Bros TASes)
adelikat: Claiming for judging. The verdict (either way) will potentially set a precedent for future submissions so I want to handle this one. I hope for lots of votes, comments, and pedantic opinions on this one.
adelikat: Author is improving this movie and some of the possible improvement would have a direct impact on a potential verdict so I am setting this to delayed for now.
mugg: I'm setting this to canceled since I'm not trying to improve this anymore. To my knowledge, klmz is planning to make an improvement so there is no need for this to stay on the workbench.
The last four versions of this run all improved upon the previous version by less than a second (and in one case the improvement was just 4 frames!) Until moments before this submission I could have asked any of you "hey can SMB PAL be run faster than SMB NTSC" and to a man you all would have said "lol what of course not SMB is one of the most optimal runs on the site".
This run is astonishing. The only thing more astonishing is how pig headed so many of you are being. The run is awesome. It's got an awesome ROM specific glitch. It's crisp, it's cool, it colors dinosaurs, cures cancer, and solves a problem like Maria faster than we ever thought possible.
Until moments before this submission I could have asked any of you "hey can SMB PAL be run faster than SMB NTSC" and to a man you all would have said "lol what of course not SMB is one of the most optimal runs on the site".
Nah, I think they would have said "Possibly, but who wants an obsoletion over a dumb version difference like that?"
put yourself in my rocketpack if that poochie is one outrageous dude
Joined: 7/29/2004
Posts: 136
Location: Temple City, CA
I would have to vote no on this. This game plays more like mario in turbo mode and less like SMB. It does demonstrate the same trick as used in the U version on levels where you can't do it outside of the E version, but I don't really feel like the games are the same. I wouldn't mind seeing a note in the published run linking to this submission and saying why it isn't published.
"How can you prove you exist? Maybe we don't exist..."
-Vivi Ornitier (Final Fantasy IX)
In the olden days, I would have published this movie without a corresponding AVI file. So as to have it as "you know it's done and there" but not to showcase it as something to watch.
But these days are no longer.
In the olden days, I would have published this movie without a corresponding AVI file. So as to have it as "you know it's done and there" but not to showcase it as something to watch.
But these days are no longer.
Joined: 5/25/2007
Posts: 399
Location: New England
I'd vote no; the difference just isn't fundamental enough to switch ROMs. I find it more entertaining to see the bullet glitch where it's used because it's so difficult - PAL just makes the same glitch easier.
Contrast that with Rygar and Blaster Master, where totally different behaviors (jumping over river, air-jumping) and routes (passing through walls, skipping levels) are enabled by the PAL ROM.
None of this is to take away from MUGG's project - it's great to see this new avenue explored, and by all means link to it from the published run.
Until moments before this submission I could have asked any of you "hey can SMB PAL be run faster than SMB NTSC" and to a man you all would have said "lol what of course not SMB is one of the most optimal runs on the site".
Nah, I think they would have said "Possibly, but who wants an obsoletion over a dumb version difference like that?"
This ^
I was pretty sure PAL would save time for the past 2-3 years, but I wasn't sure if tasvideos accepted PAL and thought other smb TASers knew this but didn't care (like myself) because the game is different from it's original version.
and I figure the large majority of TASers would rather see the original version opposed to the E version.
Super Mario Bros. console speedrunner
- Andrew Gardikis
This was a great run, very impressive stuff here.
Just a few questions...
Any way to deal with the lag on 8-1?
And what was with the running into the wall at the end of 8-3? Was it to get the right subpixel coordinates?
Any way to do the "jump into wall with nothing on top" glitch in the PAL version?
This was a great run, very impressive stuff here.
Just a few questions...
Any way to deal with the lag on 8-1?
And what was with the running into the wall at the end of 8-3? Was it to get the right subpixel coordinates?
Any way to do the "jump into wall with nothing on top" glitch in the PAL version?
- Probably yes. I didn't care too much about it, since this wasn't a very serious project to me and I was feeling aware that it would end up rejected or canceled. I didn't think this TAS would raise a great debate.
- It isn't possible to end 8-3 with the timer at 344 while using the flagpole glitch. I needed to wait for the timer to turn 342 to avoid fireworks.
- You mean "jumping into a corner"? The wall would have to be at least 3 blocks tall. I couldn't get it to work with 2 blocks due to the difference in jumping height.
Voting no for replacing the (U) version as both the author and andrewg have stated that this is suboptimal. There shouldn't be a replacement of an old run unless the new run is of the same quality or better as the previous run.
Published alongside? This is also an iffy proposition. It wasn't done with Super Metroid and I believe that set the precedent for this case. So in that case I am leaning towards no as well.
Last option is to put a link in the description, and this of course has precedent for being done and doesn't harm anyone or anything. So I won't vote directly "yes, no, meh" because I don't think those describe how I feel on this one. But I will place my vote in text that I think this should be given recognition as it is faster, however it isn't yet of the same quality as what is on the site.
On a side note: I don't have a problem with people using (E) or (J) roms for a run if it's faster than the currently published run. But it is obvious that a (J) rom will cause a drop in entertainment for some people and will also come into consideration during the voting process. If the (E) and (U) roms were sufficiently different enough, then publishing alongside would not be an issue either.
Hope my 2 cents are worth 2 cents.
I'm sciencing as fast as I can !
______________________________________
<adelikat> once more balls enter the picture, everything gets a lot more entertraining
<adelikat> mmmmm yummy penises
Simple No vote on this one. I'm sorry but it's been said too many times before. There just simply isn't enough reason for this to have ever been done let alone be published. Nothing groundbreaking or radically different between the 2 versions alone... so hence nothing to obsolete it or even go along side it.
Heck, putting the 2 up would just make things outright confusing to a lot of people who don't understand these speed differences between the 2 regions. At least with an example such as Rygar, there was significant difference in tricks that could be used and it almost made it like another game. [And the description was very thorough to explain things]
An entirely different level or sets of levels? That'd give it a sure fire chance if done properly. Same game, just slightly different and less entertaining glitch that doesn't save much time? No..
I even totally agree with the Bullet Bill glitch over this, as it looks a lot more entertaining and it is harder to pull off as it is.
I know.. rehashing most of what's been said.. but want to explain why I wish to vote No.
Mr. Kelly R. Flewin
Mr. Kelly R. Flewin
Just another random gamer
----
<OmnipotentEntity> How do you people get bored in the span of 10 seconds? Worst ADD ever.
I voted yes for publishing, but I would not like to see this replace the U run. As others have said before me, it's essentially a different game. A different set of rules to bend and break. This run is not a replacement for the U run, this run is its own beast, and should be caged accordingly.
Voting YES for replacing the (U) run.
Reasons:
1. This and the (U) rom are the same game.
2. While (U) is usually preferred over the other versions, the guidelines say there's an exception for version-specific glitches.
Examples (from the top of my head):
· FDS Mario -1 run (which doesn't compete with this run, but which is preferrable to the (U) rom for -1 world runs)
· Mario 3 (J) run
· Rygar (E) (and probably others)
There's not enough difference between (U) and (E) to justify having TWO separate any% runs.
So if he found a glitch that only worked in (E), he deserves the pride of obsoleting (U).
Examples (from the top of my head):
· FDS Mario -1 run (which doesn't compete with this run, but which is preferrable to the (U) rom for -1 world runs)
^ only because the US version doesn't have that -3 ending.
DrJones wrote:
There's not enough difference between (U) and (E) to justify having TWO separate any% runs.
So if he found a glitch that only worked in (E), he deserves the pride of obsoleting (U).
I don't think there should be two either. But I think replacing it would be a bad idea. Sure it may be a fraction faster for various reason to use the E version. But the any%,. -3 world FDS, warpless, and possibly all the lost levels TASes will be reduced to using the same glitch in every level, decreasing the entertainment value of each by a huge amount for very few seconds gained using the E version.
TASvideos is usually just "fastest time wins" but when the time gained is very minimal, with very little difference, I don't see why far less entertaining runs should replace ones that have been optimized to near perfection and add a great deal of creativity/entertainment to the site.
I wouldn't be surprised if the moonwalk glitch in the walkathon didn't work in PAL, but would have a faster result due to the differences.
I'm not a fan of very small time improvements replacing cool glitches.
Super Mario Bros. console speedrunner
- Andrew Gardikis
After a little more thought/discussion:
I think this run should be accepted and have a link on the same page as the SMB ntsc TAS. Can this be done?
Does everyone agree with this suggestion?
And for other smb PAL runs which will (likely) be submitted shortly the same thing?
EDIT: and if it isn't published I think it should be linked from the smb page like mugg suggested.
Super Mario Bros. console speedrunner
- Andrew Gardikis
Joined: 10/28/2007
Posts: 1360
Location: The dark horror in the back of your mind
Let me draw attention to another recently rejected run, submitted under similar circumstances where there's no substantial difference in game play between the NTSC runs (and there are several there as well) and the PAL run.
Does that submission warrant revival for publication as a separate branch?
Apart from PAL making it easier to abuse one particular glitch and shaving a fraction of a second off from NTSC, what does this run demonstrate over and above the rest of the SMB content on the site?
In my opinion, nothing.
This does not showcase sufficiently groundbreaking PAL-specific glitches (such as with Blaster Master) to warrant publication as a new branch. It must either obsolete another run (which I can't necessarily see being warranted) or be rejected altogether.
I am voting No.
I completely agree with this. If we put in another category, then there could theoretically be a (E) run for warpless and -3 and walkathon. Doing that in my opinion would be foolish. Good run though mugg, but voting no.
I do think though, that we should discuss the idea mugg had in his submission text.
You know what? To the average layperson who has no idea what the difference between [PAL] and [U] and [J] is, they wouldn't understand why the fastest run doesn't get the prize.
And I would have to agree with that. This website is for entertainment purposes, and the fastest run should be the main published one, obsoleting any older ones. This is for the entertainment of not only fellow gamers, but for casual gamers and even non-gamers alike.
I choose yes (as a gamer representing the people)!
If at first you don't succeed, load your savestate and try again!
