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Posted: 11/21/2006 2:18 PM
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adelikat
He/Him
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Joined: 11/3/2004
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well it is submitted :) (sorry spider-waffle, I seem to work too fast at this game) I think the lv1 jump attack is optimal, I tried many variations there and that was the one that had the best results. I can't end level 2 with raph because I need to take all the hits that I do in lv2 so raph must be down to 16 health and he must take a hit in lv4 to get the rope and if I start lv3 with him he must take a hit just before getting the rope. Also, in lv3 I can't predict ahead of time if I am going to hit the knight or his fire which further comlicates things. Using raph for lv3 may be an option since I can pick up shurikens for him but without don's bo there are several places that will be slower (like the 1st fire guy in the last building) and the birds(?) in the sewer. Using him will at best save 40 frames minus any slowdowns such as these. Not sure which bulldozer you are talking about but moving below him sounds like it would cost time. The amount of health I have works out so that I can take a hit there without any "opportunity cost" later (no other place that I could take a hit instead) Facing right when falling down a ladder doesn't matter as long as you are able to get the right x position while falling. If timed right (and subpixel dependent) you can get the same results while facing left.
It's hard to look this good. My TAS projects
Posted: 11/22/2006 12:04 PM
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Spider-Waffle
Banned User
Joined: 5/11/2004
Posts: 1049
Have you seen the previous TASes, they do an upward attack at that spot in level 1 instead of jumping and hitting the platform above causing slow down. Do you get what I'm saying about the clip over after the second bomb, it's pretty simple and should be easy to see why it'd save time? I don't get what your saying about how you can't end stage 2 with raph. If you ended stage 2 with raph he could be at least 3 bars health, more if you take more damage with don, he would get to the missiles just fine, then you switch and die as leo or mike, I think leo would be better though. Like I said the first fire guy in the last building won't cause any slow down if raph reaches him, it looks very close to his range, I wouldn't expect it to be more than 40 frames. Raph would still be at enough health to take damage before ropes even without the pizza. Also, in the previous TAS, he didn't do that pause to make the mech knight go away, he ran up to it, attacked the flame to avoid being hit, and jumped over with what appeared to be no slow down. Avoiding the second bulldozer could save raph damage which might mater if your skipping the pizza.
"Great spirits have always found violent opposition from mediocrities. The latter cannot understand it when a man does not thoughtlessly submit to hereditary prejudices but honestly and courageously uses his intelligence."
Posted: 3/27/2007 4:29 AM
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georgiek
Former player
Joined: 3/8/2007
Posts: 30
anyone found any new glitches for this game?
Posted: 3/27/2007 5:03 AM
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Spider-Waffle
Banned User
Joined: 5/11/2004
Posts: 1049
I dont' think so. The current speedrun is almost optimal. Only thing costing more than a few frames is the extra switching to change turtles on level 3 and 4 which can be avoided.
"Great spirits have always found violent opposition from mediocrities. The latter cannot understand it when a man does not thoughtlessly submit to hereditary prejudices but honestly and courageously uses his intelligence."
Posted: 3/27/2007 9:19 AM
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georgiek
Former player
Joined: 3/8/2007
Posts: 30
In regards to this game, i believe it can be improved by a respectable amount, and i am willing to try it. My main concern is that amount of lag evident in a few of the underpasses which i believe can be taken away. I have a couple great time savers which i know can improve the run by a lot, the ones though im not 100% sure about ill list below and maybe someone can confirm my follownig three suggestions then the question after that will follow: 1)- Area two, the swimming, i have a hunch you can make the turtle go faster depending how you swim. I also noticed the turtle slowing down inn the current run by going through some of the the invisible "underwater currents" (by swimming too close to the seaweed that pulls you under and kills you instantly" 2)- Maybe Raph can be used more in the lag-heavy, enemy filled Area 4 underpasses would be a more beneficial than using Don who lags quite easy. Raphs the 2nd strongest turtle and can wipe out most of the difficult weak enemys in a hit like don, especially those "+" enemies and the flies, i noticed a lot of lag in Area 4 of the current run which i think can be improved, even if means losing a few frames changing to Raph. 3)- Another "Possible" (ie not sure) timesaver could be killing off a few more turtles before the end of Area 4 somehow. I have a hunch which i have not confirmed.. that the frames it takes to kill them off is less than watching the end-of-area-4 cutscene which shows the turtles get onto the blimp. (Notice the cutscene will only show turtles getting on board that are still alive, hence 4 turtles to get on takes the blimp longer to fly off) The below is a question id really like to know: Does anyone know if the ladder glitch is possible in Underpass 14 in Area 4 JFK International Airport? If it wasnt for the magnet next to the ladder, i know at least the glitch would work 100% on that ladder... not too sure where it'd take you though, as havent got it to work since the magnet pulls you away..... Im hoping that will create a shortcut to somwhere further down the track in the area like the "almost" beautiful ladder glitch in Underpass 2 which gets you stuck in Underpass 17. If it does, then hopefully that underpass can be implemented in a run then the "Scrolls" can be obtained since they are in ther, which then can help reduce the remainder bosses and that final last passage in Area 6 Technodrome full of those white space guys.
Posted: 3/27/2007 6:45 PM
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Spider-Waffle
Banned User
Joined: 5/11/2004
Posts: 1049
That’s great if you want to do a TAS of this, I was a bit disappointed the last author didn’t use some of my timesavers. I don’t think it’s a particularly hard game to TAS, you move a constant speed and such and it’s usually obviously if you’re slowing down or not. The swimming currents I don't think anyone knows exactly how they work, it's never been documented. I think the leading theory is that when you move into certain areas, probably rectangles, you activate a current which moves in one of four directions. These currents probably affect you when you’re in certain rectangles also. No one has mapped out all the rectangles. Also it seems you can deactivate a current while in it, stopping the ground might do this or maybe its rectangles again. I wasn’t aware the run activated a slowing current which could have been avoided. I think however, it might be faster to activate the current which starts at the seaweed tunnel moves you right through that large passage of seaweed and electric hazards. I’m just not sure what you have to do exactly to activate that current and if it’s worth it. I actually suggest you use raph as the last turtle in the swimming part, continue with him to glitch to missiles. Switch to leo and die, start by car as raph again, use him all the way through level 3, using single suriken to kill some guys and the bosses. Then continue with raph and glitch to ropes. From here you could continue with raph if you think it’d save time with lag, but remember he has limited range, can’t attack down, and you’ll need to use suriken on the boomerang guys to kill them in 2 hits. I thought about this cinema too, but are you sure the area four ending scene speeds up with less turtles active? I’m pretty sure if you still have don alive he always comes out at the same time, so if the other turtles are captured there is just a long pause before don come out. Also I don’t think you can get them killed without wasting more than 5 seconds or so, this is way longer than the time the cinema takes. I’ve checked all the possible ceiling + wall glitches I’m pretty sure; I know room 14 takes you to a scrambled area with water, seaweed and lava like most places in level 4. The game crashes. If you could some how get the glitch to work after the ropes part on that wall which meets the ceiling I think it would take you down to the next room and save time. But I’ve tried this for hours making no progress. It works on the wall before the ropes part, as you can move into that wall without getting pushed out. I’m curious as to what significant timesavers you do know that work. The only one that comes to mind would be the level 2 warp up the wall to the last ladder which some people think they’ve done but can’t do it again.
"Great spirits have always found violent opposition from mediocrities. The latter cannot understand it when a man does not thoughtlessly submit to hereditary prejudices but honestly and courageously uses his intelligence."
Posted: 3/28/2007 5:35 AM
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georgiek
Former player
Joined: 3/8/2007
Posts: 30
How about area 3 with the Turtle Van? I know that when you need to leave the van to get the missiles, if you face the turtle van upright facing the door to go inside you will walk straight into the building by pressing up, then whne you leave the building you will be automatically inside the turtle van ready to move on. I want to test this out because im sure about 60 frames can be saved here, in the current run the player needs to backtrack (in the opposite way) to get back into the van. One thing im not sure about is maybe the van will move if you die and position itslf to the right of the missile building. If it doesent, this is a sure way to save frames.
Posted: 3/29/2007 12:53 AM
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Spider-Waffle
Banned User
Joined: 5/11/2004
Posts: 1049
the van moves when you die, it will always be in a fixed position outside the building you were last in.
"Great spirits have always found violent opposition from mediocrities. The latter cannot understand it when a man does not thoughtlessly submit to hereditary prejudices but honestly and courageously uses his intelligence."
Posted: 5/8/2009 9:46 AM
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georgiek
Former player
Joined: 3/8/2007
Posts: 30
i must say the current (most recent) run of this game to date is looking way better. The water level is looking a lot more optimized than previously. i really like the current run - very nice :) anyone want to work on the lag areas of area 4 underpasses? possible glich attacks can be used to rid enemies to prevent on-screen lag? im not sure if it can be improved more, but it would be great to see this done even faster if at all possible! ive said it before, raph may be able to be used to get through the lag areas.
Posted: 5/9/2009 1:19 AM
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adelikat
He/Him
Emulator Coder, Site Developer, Site Owner, Expert player (3574)
Joined: 11/3/2004
Posts: 4754
Location: Tennessee
TASer of 2010 NES TASer of 2010 DS TASer of 2010 Arcade TAS of 2010 NES TASer of 2008 NES TAS of 2008 Funny TAS of 2008 TASer of 2007 NES TASer of 2007 Funny TAS of 2007
I guess I'll go ahead and share this: http://dehacked.2y.net/microstorage.php/info/1824076265/adelikatv2-tmnt-beginlv4.fm2 Last summer I began an improvement to my movie. Mainly because I had a trick in mind that never worked out. I got to level 4 and was 61 frames ahead. I lost motivation due to some bad randomness when approaching the ropes. The enemy's timing there is going to cost me about 30 frames unless I can find some way to manipulate it. Also, this game is rather tedious to TAS at such a tightly optimized level, so only having tiny improvements here and there to work with, this improvement wasn't very fun, so I keep putting if off. If anyone wants to pick up where I left off, be my guest. I might get back to it at some point but i have a lot of other projects that are higher on the priority list.
It's hard to look this good. My TAS projects
Posted: 5/10/2009 6:36 PM
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Spider-Waffle
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Joined: 5/11/2004
Posts: 1049
I'm still surprised that jump attack in the middle of level 1 is faster than an upward attack. I see you got what I was saying about the clipping in the swimming part when coming down. Could it be faster to activate the current before the seaweed part then deactivate it after getting the bomb on the right? Could you pick up suriken as raph in level 3? Then you could maybe raph it all the way, and skip two turtle switches in level 4.
"Great spirits have always found violent opposition from mediocrities. The latter cannot understand it when a man does not thoughtlessly submit to hereditary prejudices but honestly and courageously uses his intelligence."
Posted: 5/10/2009 6:41 PM
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adelikat
He/Him
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Joined: 11/3/2004
Posts: 4754
Location: Tennessee
TASer of 2010 NES TASer of 2010 DS TASer of 2010 Arcade TAS of 2010 NES TASer of 2008 NES TAS of 2008 Funny TAS of 2008 TASer of 2007 NES TASer of 2007 Funny TAS of 2007
All those things fail according to my tests. You are welcome to test it yourself to confirm :)
It's hard to look this good. My TAS projects
Posted: 5/11/2009 9:34 AM
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georgiek
Former player
Joined: 3/8/2007
Posts: 30
hmm raph through level 3 and 4 i dont see why this would not work, he can kill the fly enemies in one hit in area 4 when not even under half health (and i think he can kill the jumping green men that throw yellow boomerangs in 2 hits when under half health just like don...
Posted: 5/14/2009 7:19 AM
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Spider-Waffle
Banned User
Joined: 5/11/2004
Posts: 1049
checked the last TAS and he got suriken right before the sewer in lvl3, So I think it's very plausible, but not sure if there's enough suriken to go around with needing like 8 on lvl3 boss.
"Great spirits have always found violent opposition from mediocrities. The latter cannot understand it when a man does not thoughtlessly submit to hereditary prejudices but honestly and courageously uses his intelligence."
Posted: 6/1/2009 6:37 PM
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georgiek
Former player
Joined: 3/8/2007
Posts: 30
hey adelikat maybe you can try changing turtle in the screen above when you go up the ladder maybe that will change luck manipulation. it would be good to see this improved even further.
Posted: 6/11/2009 7:30 AM
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Spider-Waffle
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Joined: 5/11/2004
Posts: 1049
I was thinking you'd probably need to switch don after getting ropes in level 4 just because I think he can reduce lag much better than anyone else and there's lots of places where it's necessary. Maybe leo would be better even if his attack doesn't create as much lag. I think staying with raph for lvl3 to ropes is pretty reasonable and the trade off between lag and extra turtle switch would be worth it. Why do you need switching turtles at different time to manipulate something?
"Great spirits have always found violent opposition from mediocrities. The latter cannot understand it when a man does not thoughtlessly submit to hereditary prejudices but honestly and courageously uses his intelligence."
Posted: 6/24/2009 3:55 PM
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dave_dfwm
Active player (253)
Joined: 7/30/2006
Posts: 208
Location: Alefgard, USA
To anyone who is thinking about trying to improve this game, please watch this video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AGiGWSisLyY For the good part, just fast forward to 1:40 in the video. Summary: Kill the technodrome, and have your turtle land on the treads. If the right conditions are met (I don't know what these conditions are), your turtle will take damage when he falls off the tread. If your turtle has low enough health, this damage will kill him. The point is, the level will still be completed, and the death + "turtle death" soundbyte takes considerably less time than jumping in the technodrome + the "level complete" fanfare before you see April speak. This could be a potential timesaver.
Posted: 6/26/2009 12:36 AM
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adelikat
He/Him
Emulator Coder, Site Developer, Site Owner, Expert player (3574)
Joined: 11/3/2004
Posts: 4754
Location: Tennessee
TASer of 2010 NES TASer of 2010 DS TASer of 2010 Arcade TAS of 2010 NES TASer of 2008 NES TAS of 2008 Funny TAS of 2008 TASer of 2007 NES TASer of 2007 Funny TAS of 2007
I saw that video well over a year ago and is what inspired me to make this above linked wip. However, it proved to not be practical at all, there isn't a way for it to save time unfortunately.
It's hard to look this good. My TAS projects
Posted: 7/8/2009 8:07 PM
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Spider-Waffle
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Joined: 5/11/2004
Posts: 1049
Why can't it save time? Couldn't you just die as don, then do lvl6 with don and taking no damage? Also it seems maybe you can do it on other levels, I have no idea how he would have done this at the end of lvl2 though but that would save like over a minute: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=crqwFakUcmM&feature=related I also found this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bYDFyUPceSo&feature=related This makes good use of the shredder falling while receiving death blow glitch, this could get to the end credits faster, not that there isn't a faster way to do this.
"Great spirits have always found violent opposition from mediocrities. The latter cannot understand it when a man does not thoughtlessly submit to hereditary prejudices but honestly and courageously uses his intelligence."
Posted: 7/9/2009 4:03 PM
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dave_dfwm
Active player (253)
Joined: 7/30/2006
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Location: Alefgard, USA
SpiderWaffle: The second Youtube video you linked to is actually mine! (look at the author :) ... ) I believe I sent an .fcm of that video to Adelikat some time ago. It was one of those situations where you could have a shortened input file at the expense of a longer .avi file. Little known fact: You can place the shuriken slightly higher on the platform, and Shredder will hit it without having to fall. When he gets hit for the final time, he will float sideways to the right and explode into the wall in midair!
Posted: 7/9/2009 4:07 PM
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adelikat
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First video: He says in the description he didn't do it at the end of level 2 but by doing the falling sequence off a building in lv 3. I don't see how that is useful. 2nd video: Also, it requires the use of Mike to work, which would require a turtle switch. So it doesn't save actual time, but also costs time to do the switch (and to do a switch earlier in the game to give Mike the shurikens). As for the death shortcut, it was a year or more ago that I was seriously testing it. I can't quite remember exactly the failure, all I remember was that it was epic. The glitch won't even come close to saving time.
It's hard to look this good. My TAS projects
Posted: 7/13/2009 12:54 AM
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Spider-Waffle
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Joined: 5/11/2004
Posts: 1049
maybe the death on tread only works with mike or non-don. You can't switch turtles unless you die, so you'd need to finish level 6 with the turtle that died on the tread and without getting hit for it to save time. Maybe if you do need mike though you could get suriken off of the foot clan guys at the very start of level 6 and be able to finish level 6 with mike. Another problem I see with tread glitch is that it'd be hard to kill the technodrome before it goes off the screen and get the tread glitch to work, maybe the treads have to be going forward too? Also, was there any testing with up+down and items? Maybe you can do this suriken glitch without mike. Also, couldn't you grab suriken with mike at the end of level level 6, so the cost would only be the switch to mike? It's a shame that you need to kill mike to go straight to don though after getting the missiles, but using raph after missile all the way to ropes is still up in the air, which would just mean killing leo. That suriken in wall glitch makes your last input about 11 seconds faster? So even if you need to spend 6 seconds to switch and mike get him suriken you're still saving 5 seconds!!
"Great spirits have always found violent opposition from mediocrities. The latter cannot understand it when a man does not thoughtlessly submit to hereditary prejudices but honestly and courageously uses his intelligence."
Posted: 7/13/2009 2:28 AM
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adelikat
He/Him
Emulator Coder, Site Developer, Site Owner, Expert player (3574)
Joined: 11/3/2004
Posts: 4754
Location: Tennessee
TASer of 2010 NES TASer of 2010 DS TASer of 2010 Arcade TAS of 2010 NES TASer of 2008 NES TAS of 2008 Funny TAS of 2008 TASer of 2007 NES TASer of 2007 Funny TAS of 2007
Spider-Waffle wrote:
maybe the treads have to be going forward too?
Right, this was the situation. The techonodrome would have to be way to the left as demonstrated in that movie. The time it takes to create that is far longer than the time saved. So this is not useful at all.
Also, was there any testing with up+down and items? Maybe you can do this suriken glitch without mike.
Of course I tested stuff like this, you are welcome to try though.
That suriken in wall glitch makes your last input about 11 seconds faster? So even if you need to spend 6 seconds to switch and mike get him suriken you're still saving 5 seconds!!
No, I wouldn't be saving any time. I would be lowering the input time by delaying the final completion time.
It's hard to look this good. My TAS projects
Posted: 7/13/2009 3:23 AM
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Spider-Waffle
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Joined: 5/11/2004
Posts: 1049
I thought final input was a measure of time, at least it used to be. Videos used to come with two different versions, one for fastest credits and one for fastest last input.
"Great spirits have always found violent opposition from mediocrities. The latter cannot understand it when a man does not thoughtlessly submit to hereditary prejudices but honestly and courageously uses his intelligence."
Posted: 1/25/2010 4:16 PM
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kolechovski
Joined: 1/13/2006
Posts: 109
It seems I came back just a bit too late with this vid, as it looks like you guys had these discussions. Here's a real-time vid of Mike's scroll glitch for reconsideration, if anyone cares. FCE video version 0.98.15: http://dehacked.2y.net/microstorage.php/info/304596418/TMNT%20shredder.fcm Which is the goal, anyhow-shorter ending time, or shorter file input time?
Life is like a box of chocolates-when you want peanut butter, all you get is coconut.
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