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Posted: 8/5/2013 11:07 AM
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Nach
Emulator Coder
Joined: 3/9/2004
Posts: 4588
Location: In his lab studying psychology to find new ways to torture TASers and forumers
Svimmer wrote:
Nach: Slamo wanted to tele-grab the gem instead of grabbing it, then activating the teleport and wasting the teleport wait time. So that saves time.
Ah! Thanks.
Warning: Opinions expressed by Nach or others in this post do not necessarily reflect the views, opinions, or position of Nach himself on the matter(s) being discussed therein.
Posted: 8/5/2013 6:31 PM
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dugongue
Joined: 5/2/2012
Posts: 5
whoa the top two games on this forum Jetpack Nethack whoaaaaaaaaaa
Posted: 8/6/2013 4:16 PM
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Svimmer
Joined: 9/27/2011
Posts: 207
Location: Finland
:) :) :)
Posted: 8/7/2013 7:42 PM
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slamo
Reviewer, Expert player (2435)
Joined: 5/21/2013
Posts: 414
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Tornado has been kind of disappointing. I'm pretty happy with everything before the last marble section, but that's all pointless because you get severely bottlenecked and have to wait a lot in the end anyway. Oh well, I hope the playaround in there demonstrates why this level is frustrating. Time to move on. Link to video
Posted: 8/8/2013 5:41 AM
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flashthe
Joined: 6/24/2007
Posts: 119
so it is not possible to follow the marble into the green portal at the bottom and come out on top?
Posted: 8/8/2013 5:52 AM
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Ilari
Emulator Coder, Skilled player (1113)
Joined: 5/1/2010
Posts: 1217
Rookie of 2010 New systems TASer of 2010 New systems TAS of 2010
flashthe wrote:
so it is not possible to follow the marble into the green portal at the bottom and come out on top?
Doesn't look to be possible: 1) All directions except upper left and right are solid and unphasable. 2) Upper left is not an option because one can't squeeze through diagonal of solid and unphasable blocks (one could squeeze between spikes, but that's not useful here). 3) Right is not an option because those spikes would kill you.
Posted: 8/8/2013 3:48 PM
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slamo
Reviewer, Expert player (2435)
Joined: 5/21/2013
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Ilari is correct, there's no way to the green teleporter, at least without an invincibility powerup. Breakout: Link to video I tried a few routes for this one. One route just snaked straight lines through the gems at the top and came out on the bottom right, which ran into enemy issues. The other one got the rightmost ones on the floor first, and then zig-zagged through the top blocks, finishing in the middle, then falling and collecting the remaining floor gems. The route in the video is nice because it has a lot of flexibility in evading the missiles and ended up being the fastest.
Posted: 8/8/2013 4:15 PM
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Svimmer
Joined: 9/27/2011
Posts: 207
Location: Finland
I guess the shield wasn't making the 53 route any better? Was there a way to plan the level with the shield since you knew it was about to spawn? How many frames faster would you have to be on 52 to make it one cycle earlier? Do you always create a route overview picture like the ones you and Nach have been posting? If you do, would it be a lot more effort to upload that one as well, it's simply so difficult to follow what exactly is happening and look for suggestions for improvement if it's just that crazy fast WIP to go on. Did the spinner affect your decision-making on Tornado? If so did you try manipulating the starting direction?
Posted: 8/8/2013 4:39 PM
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slamo
Reviewer, Expert player (2435)
Joined: 5/21/2013
Posts: 414
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Svimmer wrote:
I guess the shield wasn't making the 53 route any better? Was there a way to plan the level with the shield since you knew it was about to spawn? How many frames faster would you have to be on 52 to make it one cycle earlier? Do you always create a route overview picture like the ones you and Nach have been posting? If you do, would it be a lot more effort to upload that one as well, it's simply so difficult to follow what exactly is happening and look for suggestions for improvement if it's just that crazy fast WIP to go on. Did the spinner affect your decision-making on Tornado? If so did you try manipulating the starting direction?
1. I tried grabbing it on the way to the upper right corner but it was too slow. The missiles weren't a huge issue here so I don't think it would be worth it to grab it earlier. 2. Not sure what you mean...but 52 can't be faster anyway. 3. The only route maps I make are ones I post. I'll make one for this level, here: Keep in mind that route is ideal and not the one executed in the video. 4. Spinners weren't an issue, no. I had to wiggle around them while falling down but it didn't waste any time.
Posted: 8/11/2013 10:00 PM
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slamo
Reviewer, Expert player (2435)
Joined: 5/21/2013
Posts: 414
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It seems like there's nothing else to be said about 53, so here's Bulge: Link to video The route seems pretty logical, as you need fuel to finish the level...it's actually possible to go through the bulge without fuel, but insanely difficult (and most importantly, slow). As usual I try to be productive while waiting for missiles.
Posted: 8/13/2013 2:31 PM
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Svimmer
Joined: 9/27/2011
Posts: 207
Location: Finland
Bulge looks really nasty for enemy evasions. You did try alt-stepping down the "staircase" at the beginning? Did you try phasing (-10, 3) from the left side and collecting the gem above after that? Otherwise was it possible to do a frame of delay-phasing on that block?
Posted: 8/13/2013 2:52 PM
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slamo
Reviewer, Expert player (2435)
Joined: 5/21/2013
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Svimmer wrote:
Bulge looks really nasty for enemy evasions. You did try alt-stepping down the "staircase" at the beginning? Did you try phasing (-10, 3) from the left side and collecting the gem above after that? Otherwise was it possible to do a frame of delay-phasing on that block?
Thank you for the feedback lately Svimmer, it's appreciated. 1. There are two problems with alt-stepping down that staircase. First is that you don't hit terminal velocity immediately after stepping off, so falling is much slower. Second is that you gain too much horizontal speed and this results in you jumping over most of the gems. 2. You're actually right about this and I did try this before I uploaded the video. You can delay-phase that brick by starting ASAP from the left side and then settling on top to collect the gem, and it is faster. The problem is that you run into the same bottlenecks as before - you just barely can't get past the missile to escape from the top of the bulge, and the spring under the half-tank blocks you from going down the staircase after collecting the rightmost gem. In the end it makes no difference.
Posted: 8/13/2013 4:25 PM
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Svimmer
Joined: 9/27/2011
Posts: 207
Location: Finland
Thank you for the feedback lately Svimmer, it's appreciated.
Carryin' the torch while Nach is [in a sense] away!
Posted: 8/14/2013 6:17 PM
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slamo
Reviewer, Expert player (2435)
Joined: 5/21/2013
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Deimos. Link to video I feel like there are only two sensible routes here, one with the red gate and one without it. The route with the gate off is 10 frames faster, probably due to the fact that it only requires one teleport instead of two and the switch isn't too far out of the way. So next up is Wander Lust, behold: I feel like a program would actually help with routing this. Maybe I'll put something together.
Posted: 8/17/2013 3:57 AM
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slamo
Reviewer, Expert player (2435)
Joined: 5/21/2013
Posts: 414
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First attempt at Wander Lust (warning, lots of explosions): Link to video
  • I opted not to make a program for this level. I did some research and I don't have the rest of my life to wait for a computer to make a solution.
  • The only major route difference I made so far is using the teleporter to get the two gems in the bottom left corner early instead of picking them up when I'm nearby. It was one frame slower.
  • I've considered TONS of optimizations here...i.e. figuring out ideal configurations for picking up groups of nearby gems, burning crates early to position myself better for the next gem, efficient pathing, etc.
I am definitely not done playing around with this level. Doing this first route has given me another idea, and maybe posting this will give people other ideas. Generally it's better to start by going down, because navigating up without fuel is time-consuming and the fuel is near the bottom anyway.
Posted: 8/17/2013 8:40 PM
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Svimmer
Joined: 9/27/2011
Posts: 207
Location: Finland
So I found this: www.youtubeslow.com Just add "slow" after "youtube" in a youtube video's address and it takes you to a site that slows the video down (by playing it back in chunks). Needless to say, this is useful for watching WIPs.
Posted: 8/17/2013 11:28 PM
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Patashu
He/Him
Joined: 10/2/2005
Posts: 4043
Svimmer wrote:
So I found this: www.youtubeslow.com Just add "slow" after "youtube" in a youtube video's address and it takes you to a site that slows the video down (by playing it back in chunks). Needless to say, this is useful for watching WIPs.
You can also opt into the html5 player ( http://www.youtube.com/html5/ ) which has an option to change playback speed to 0.5x, 0.25x and so on.
My Chiptune music, made in Famitracker: http://soundcloud.com/patashu My twitch. I stream mostly shmups & rhythm games http://twitch.tv/patashu My youtube, again shmups and rhythm games and misc stuff: http://youtube.com/user/patashu
Posted: 8/18/2013 2:42 AM
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slamo
Reviewer, Expert player (2435)
Joined: 5/21/2013
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An improvement on Wander Lust: (click here to watch in slow motion, thanks to Svimmer for discovering this) Link to video This is 39 frames better than the first WIP, so a bit over half a second. I actually never thought that going up at first would be faster, but this route proves me wrong. I have one more idea I want to explore before I'm done with this level.
Posted: 8/18/2013 5:45 PM
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Svimmer
Joined: 9/27/2011
Posts: 207
Location: Finland
So for the record you're facing subpixel problems with no obvious solution (like phasing down before the jump) with the one jump where you phase a crate but aren't able to enter the space that was left? Did you try phasing the crate to the left (10, 3) instead of above (10, 2)? That would save you a jump, but you'd have to jump again to collect (10, 1).
Posted: 8/19/2013 6:38 PM
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slamo
Reviewer, Expert player (2435)
Joined: 5/21/2013
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Svimmer wrote:
So for the record you're facing subpixel problems with no obvious solution (like phasing down before the jump) with the one jump where you phase a crate but aren't able to enter the space that was left? Did you try phasing the crate to the left (10, 3) instead of above (10, 2)? That would save you a jump, but you'd have to jump again to collect (10, 1).
Yeah, for horizontal subpixels I can just phase up/down but for vertical there is no good solution (jumping up to that crate at different positions results in slightly different subpixels, but none worked out). Interesting idea...it would be one less jump, so it would definitely save time. This is kind of moot now though, as an entirely different route has shaved 27 frames off WIP 2. Link to video Almost a second faster than the original now...I'm out of ideas, but I'm pretty satisfied now. I might move on unless me or someone else thinks of some other reasonable route.
Posted: 8/19/2013 7:09 PM
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Svimmer
Joined: 9/27/2011
Posts: 207
Location: Finland
Hmm... It looks pretty logical, all the second half looks logical with the ones that are left. Unless picking up the two gems at (14, 8) and (15,9) from the top after the tele instead of bottom before the tele and going right from there is any good?
Posted: 8/19/2013 7:15 PM
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slamo
Reviewer, Expert player (2435)
Joined: 5/21/2013
Posts: 414
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Svimmer wrote:
Hmm... It looks pretty logical, all the second half looks logical with the ones that are left. Unless picking up the two gems at (14, 8) and (15,9) from the top after the tele instead of bottom before the tele and going right from there is any good?
I considered this, but we're talking about phasing 5 crates to get them from the top instead of just 2 from the bottom (roughly 10 frames per crate, factoring in phasing time and travel...although falling is faster, it's not THAT much faster). The 2 routes for getting the cluster in the upper right are roughly the same time.
Posted: 8/23/2013 2:57 PM
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slamo
Reviewer, Expert player (2435)
Joined: 5/21/2013
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After a couple days of tinkering, I finally have a route for 57 I'm satisfied with: Link to video Obviously the barriers are a huge problem here. The bottom is kind of OK because at least you can phase around them, but the top section just traps you and forces you to wait. The period for the cycles is kind of short...overall the time for this is dictated by how many cycles it takes. The second best time I got was a whole red cycle slower (about 2.5 seconds). I really don't think this can be improved, as the route on the bottom is really efficient and no other route I tried even came close.
Posted: 8/23/2013 6:49 PM
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Svimmer
Joined: 9/27/2011
Posts: 207
Location: Finland
That level must have been a bitch! I guess you tried to phase the block you start on then going left instead to collect those ones, then going through? It does look very efficient the way it's done here.
Posted: 8/23/2013 9:16 PM
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slamo
Reviewer, Expert player (2435)
Joined: 5/21/2013
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Svimmer wrote:
That level must have been a bitch! I guess you tried to phase the block you start on then going left instead to collect those ones, then going through? It does look very efficient the way it's done here.
That's another good route - but I would end up hitting the same cycle, so the final time would be the same as well.
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