I thought this would be a good idea for "obsoleting" outdated publications.
The discussion about unpublication has been brought up before but think this could be a good compromise. If this were published, any movie could be set as "obsoleted by" the publication grue. This can be useful in some publications where a movie is indeed obsolete (due to an abundance of new tricks, or a change in TASVideos quality standards) but has no movie for which to replace it.
The currently published any% version of Ocarina of Time is a good example where the current run is heavily outdated and improvable by about an _hour_! Yet we are nowhere near seeing an improvement. In such a case it could be obsoelted by the publication grue. This way the movie stays on the site (and treated just like any other obsoleted movie) but is not displayed as a current "record".
The actual movie file for this submission is moot. I picked .fm2 since it was text and allows me to explain the purpose of it. I chose rerecord counts and movie length as such that they wouldn't mess with site statistics in any meaningful way. If published it would be in its own unique "Grue" category so it would not interfere with movie lists.
I could have brought this up in a discussion thread but I thought a submission would be more appropriate and a better attention getter. Voting yes on publication of this is voting for this implementation of "unpublication". Any movies it would obsolete, however, should have their own poll or discussion beforehand.
Commence discussion.
On a side note, if published, I think we could have a lot of fun with the video file & screenshot ^_^
adelikat: Rejecting this submission due to not being popular by the audience.
adelikat: Changing system ID so that I can "grue" the Grue ID
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Kyman wrote:
andymac wrote:
Maybe we could assign some kind of bounty points
I think this is a good idea, and then we could have an award for the best bounty hunter of the year.
The award could look something like this:
No, the award would clearly be an Olympic podium with Samus in the center, and Captain Falcon and Boba Fett on either side.
Warp wrote:
Nach wrote:
What system do you propose?
How about this:
Any published run which meets these two criteria:
1) Has been published over a year ago, and
2) presents any of these problems:
- does not comply with the site rules,
- is speed-oriented, but there's a regular speedrun that is faster,
- would clearly not be accepted if submitted today (for some definition of "clearly")
will be included in (or nominated for) a yearly reconsideration poll.
Just an idea for more precise rules. Fine-tune as needed.
I think this is on the right track.
What saddens me though in all this is how pathetic we are compared to the rest of the internet. On other sites, when an argument comes up along these lines, within the first few days of arguing, an individual will come along and provide a full solution which supersedes the argument. As an example see how GIT started.
How come in all this time of arguing no one posted at least a WIP improving some of the games we're talking about?
Warning: Opinions expressed by Nach or others in this post do not necessarily reflect the views, opinions, or position of Nach himself on the matter(s) being discussed therein.
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Nach wrote:
How come in all this time of arguing no one posted at least a WIP improving some of the games we're talking about?
Oh there have been WIPs... browse through the OoT thread for several examples. The problem is that they have been promised repetitively by a couple members who are very good at TASing that game. These promises effectively kill off interest by anyone else, for fear of pouring hard work into a movie which will *soon* be beat by another TASer. It's small-scale FUD: "We promise that we will make a great new run in the next 4-8 months which will blow your socks off, so anyone else who works on this same project is just wasting their time". It's unfortunate.
As far as the other movies are concerned, what motivation do people have to work on an obsoletion attempt for Combatribes for example? It is one of the lowest rated movies on the site, very repetitive, and long enough to make it a fairly substantial project. Some altruistic soul may decide to work on it because of this submission, but I haven't heard of anyone having any interest at all.
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mmbossman wrote:
Oh there have been WIPs... browse through the OoT thread for several examples. The problem is that they have been promised repetitively by a couple members who are very good at TASing that game. These promises effectively kill off interest by anyone else, for fear of pouring hard work into a movie which will *soon* be beat by another TASer. It's small-scale FUD: "We promise that we will make a great new run in the next 4-8 months which will blow your socks off, so anyone else who works on this same project is just wasting their time". It's unfortunate..
Take a look at the 2 OoT RBA submissions. That's what happens when non-skilled TASers try to beat the game despite skilled TASers already working on the game.
Also, since both of those runs were rejected due to low technical precision (a rejection which is shared by the viewer's and judges response), then perhaps we should wait for the technically precise version, since it's what the site's viewers and judges are waiting to vote yes on.
Now despite being discouraging, we still have examples where despite peer pressure, a new TASer comes along and dominates. Examples:
-Super Metroid. Hero of the Day, JXQ, and Saturn are essentially replaced by new guys Taco, Kriole, NameSpoofer, etc.
-Ocarina of Time. Bloobiebla started as a newbie, persisted, and created a damn fine all-temples run. And he was originally competing against me, GuanoBowl, and SwordlessLink.
-Majora's Mask. MrGrunz has come along and blown Mukki and SwordlessLink out of the water. (He's also good at OoT)
-Super Mario 64. FODA, rikku, SwordlessLink, and AKA fade out, all the new guys, like Kyman and nahoc sonicpacker and ZOMG and Silentslayers and etc. because there's a lot of new guys.
-Donkey Kong Country. What was originally an Arne dominated series has paved way to myself, NxCy (who began by obsoleting my old work) and Tompa.
-Super Mario World 2: Yoshi's Island. NxCy and Baxter have replaced spezzafer.
-Super Mario World. Mister and ISM reign supreme now.
-Sonic and Knuckles 3. MarzoJr.
-Aria of Sorrow. Kriole is taking over almost all categories.
-Harmony of Dissonance. klmz only has one category (Maxim warpless) that he hasn't beat.
-Megaman. The megaman games, especially the ones 3 and after are being dominated by mega_man_3 and glitchman.
-Super Mario bros. Happylee.
-Many older NES games (metroid, excitebike, etc.) Lord Tom.
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Wow this topic went all over the place. The only thing dissappointing is that I think by page 2 or 3 people lost track of the concept this idea was supposed to represent. Essentially the concept of "unpublishing" in the past was discussed in one of two forms:
1) Deleting the publication from existence
2) Reverting it back to a submission status (and probably rejecting it)
This grue idea was simply a 3rd less drastic option:
3) Set a publication to obsoleted.
This was intended to be a compromise. The main advantage being that the movie is still a publication on TASVideos.
It wasn't my intent that this be used in any specific circumstance or even at all. It also seems some people got very upset by this idea and misinterpreted its intent. This was simply an idea. One that I thought people might find less objectionable that previous unpublication ideas. Also, since the idea involves a "dummy" publication it was have to be a submission first. Thus it seemed only natural to propose the idea in submission for, and thus let the people decide just as they would any other submission. I'm sorry that doing so offended some people.
I feel the majority of posts here were not a rejection of this idea but a rejection of the general concept of unpublication. While I'm disappointed the idea didn't get much discussion, I do feel that a more important point was made clear.
Historically the lack of unpublication was largely a mechanics issue, as there was no particular site feature for such. I think this thread makes it clear that the general audience (& staff) want it to be an act of policy to not unpublish (or even set as obsoleted) existing TASVideos publications.
On that note, this submission & thread has served a point and reached a consensus. Therefore I am judging this "submission" as rejected by the people.
I will also try to put into the rules somewhere a blurb that makes unpublication an official policy.
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While I agree that a majority of people seem to be against unpublication/deletion, it also appears to me that most people in this thread and in this thread seem to be in favor of getting rid of the two one-track racing games. Will they remain due to the limitations of site coding and/or policy, or will they be dealt with separately?
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What I got from the thread is that there is more people not wanting runs removed than those wanting to remove 2 specific movies. And even some that favor getting rid of those 2 movies favor not unpublishing movies even more than they favor removal. Am I wrong on this? *5 pages of arguing ensues*
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If we're only talking about those 2 racing 1 level demos, I'm in favor of removing them.
Warning: Opinions expressed by Nach or others in this post do not necessarily reflect the views, opinions, or position of Nach himself on the matter(s) being discussed therein.
On that note, this submission & thread has served a point and reached a consensus. Therefore I am judging this "submission" as rejected by the people.
I don't think there has been such a consensus. If anything, I have seen more of a consensus that past runs which break the rules but have been published anyways ought to be removed. Also the opinion has been presented that if a speed-oriented run has been bested by a regular speedrun, and nobody is obsoleting it anytime soon, it could be put into a poll to see if it should be removed.
Personally I think it's a bit inconsistent that published runs get special treatment with regard to the rules of publication. New submissions will be rejected if they break the rules, but if some past submission got past the radar for whatever reason, then it's forever protected and the error cannot be fixed later.
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Yes you think that. But the majority don't.
Also, this particular method of unpublishing as clearly been rejected, just look at the poll results. The thread is an even more overwhelming majority.
I don't think there has been such a consensus. If anything, I have seen more of a consensus that past runs which break the rules but have been published anyways ought to be removed. Also the opinion has been presented that if a speed-oriented run has been bested by a regular speedrun, and nobody is obsoleting it anytime soon, it could be put into a poll to see if it should be removed.
I'm opposed to removing publications because they are old or that improvements have been found. I have been thinking about a good tag for those publications. How about an "aged" tag? It means that the movie is aged by time or by found improvements, so it needs to be redone, but it was still good at the time it was made. I suppose an icon for this could be a long, white beard.
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dunnius wrote:
I have been thinking about a good tag for those publications. How about an "aged" tag? It means that the movie is aged by time or by found improvements, so it needs to be redone, but it was still good at the time it was made. I suppose an icon for this could be a long, white beard.
Publications have dates, surely the user can decide that they are aged with a bit of help from mathmatics.
EDIT:
And for the record I am VERY much opposed to tagging these "bad" movies. The goal of this publication grue was to tuck them away from view of an average viewer, tagging them accomplished the opposite. Tagging puts them in the view of the audience then shouts at them "this is a bad TAS!". That's hardly image I want standing out on the site.
have a thread or page with the list of games that are up for a new pass, like was done with famtasia, unless you dont want "tagging" to happen even on the forums.
As for the special cases I dont know the drama behind them, but if they were accepted legit or if the runs arent of really bad quality and they can be obsoleted through "legit" means nowadays I would personally prefer that path to be sought instead of taking the easy route, wouldnt most of you?
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We've all agreed several times now that obsoletion is preferred where applicable.
However, that still leaves situations where it isn't applicable. Just as bad categories/goals which is what mmbossman is concerned with in the case of top gear & f-zero.
I'm opposed to removing publications because they are old or that improvements have been found.
Me too. But that's oversimplifying the issue.
The question was not whether runs with known improvements should be removed. The question was whether runs which have been bested by a regular speedrun should be removed. That's a considerably more pressing issue than a simple "it has known improvements". (Note: I'm not saying they should be removed, I'm just clarifying what I understand is being discussed.)
Also the other issue was about published runs which break the rules, but that's a bit different. It feels a bit inconsistent that rule-breaking runs are protected from removal for the simple reason that many years ago they got past the radar, for whatever reason. Why do they deserve such protection? Is getting published some kind of merit that must not be removed, ever?
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Warp wrote:
The question was whether runs which have been bested by a regular speedrun should be removed.
It may be helpful to assemble a list of known movies that fit this criteria, if for no other reason that to give people more incentive to attempt an obsoletion. AFAIK, Ocarina of Time any% and Actraiser are the only two movies that have been mentioned thus far. Does anyone know of any other TASes that have been bested by real-time speedruns?
Does anyone really want to see a full run of top-gear?
I was working on Top Gear a bit before this all came up. I never tested, but several resources claim that you can go much much faster if you use manual rather than automatic transmission in the red car (the current movie uses automatic). There's 8 countries/regions with 4 tracks each, somewhat increasing in difficulty, but they have to be unlocked through normal play or passwords. There is also a glitch that theoretically allows you to get both 1st and 2nd place. Other than that it's however many minutes of cornering well.
I was working on simply beating the existing movie, using the same savestate. TASing racing games is tedious in case anyone is curious.
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alden wrote:
adelikat wrote:
Does anyone really want to see a full run of top-gear?
I was working on Top Gear a bit before this all came up. I never tested, but several resources claim that you can go much much faster if you use manual rather than automatic transmission in the red car (the current movie uses automatic). There's 8 countries/regions with 4 tracks each, somewhat increasing in difficulty, but they have to be unlocked through normal play or passwords. There is also a glitch that theoretically allows you to get both 1st and 2nd place. Other than that it's however many minutes of cornering well.
I was working on simply beating the existing movie, using the same savestate. TASing racing games is tedious in case anyone is curious.
With enough information about the game's mechanics and level layout, I don't think it would be too hard to make a lua bot that TASes the game for you. Tedious and repetitive TASing is exactly what bots are for!
Publications have dates, surely the user can decide that they are aged with a bit of help from mathmatics.
Yeah, about that. Everytime I look for the date, I search several seconds till I realise its right next to the movie-file. I find this quite irritating, since I dont know if thats the date the movie was finished, it was submitted OR it was published? I think it would be alot more comfortable if there were 2 or 3 more lines listing these dates. Also I think the date it got published should be mentioned in the title of the movie
