Post subject: The Great Video Game Character Tournament
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Welcome to The Great NES Video Game Character TAS Battle Tournament (Hopefully arranged by using just one simple Lua script!) The idea is to take the player character sprites from two existing TAS movies and playback them simultaneously against black background. Then watch the TAS heroes battle each other! Hits are registered manually by observing the screen. Collision detection is pixel-perfect. This tournament is the only way to find out who is the best NES game character! Here are some ideas for general rules: - If the character has multiple hit points, the amount of damage taken by a hit is the average damage taken from enemies in the character's own game. - If there is a plausible reason to assume a fixed damage value, then it will be considered, case by case. For example, if the character has secondary attacks dealing twice the damage in his own game, it deals twice the damage from the receiving character's point of view. - The character does not get virtual invulnerability time from hits in a battle. Only the "natural invulnerability periods" of the original TAS are accepted. - If a character dies a "natural death" (in his original TAS during a shortcut), that death is not the same thing as losing the battle. The battle is lost only by getting killed by the opponent. So, fake death might be a good strategy in this tournament! - If the input ends in both TASes before a winner is determined, both TASes will advance to the next round. - If any of the TASes get obsoleted during the tournament, the new challenger will replace the current one and has the permission for a rematch, if the previous version of the TAS lost his battle. - Rules can change during the tournament, when better understanding of inter-game battle mechanics is achieved. Speculation: I bet Mario benefits from his frequent jump attacks. If he and Samus survive long enough to battle each other, Mario might beat Samus easily, unless Samus manages to survive long enough to gain an Energy tank and some missiles. Small Mario might be able to avoid most of the shots, because he is so small. On the other hand, small Mario dies from one hit, so he would need to be careful with the upward shots that Samus makes while running under the bats near the beginning of almost any Metroid TAS. Anyway, Mario would be a good tournament winner candidate, because he jumps a lot, has two hit points some of the time and he also shoots fireballs. Any RPG with early encounter might also do well in the tournament. Lots of damage boosts with long invulnerability periods are good too. One problem we have is that when Bimmy and Jimmy grab their enemies from heads, it might be difficult to tell, when they hit their battle opponent in this vulgar position. Oh, but they use mostly flying knees, so it does not matter. They might do well in the tournament, because there are two of them and they have lots of HP! Hmm, if Megaman shoots a charged shot at the Deja Vu guy's hand cursor, would the hand die or deflect the shot? When the Deja Vu guy looks into the mirror, is his face vulnerable to attacks or is it just a mirror image? Would the Deja Vu guy die only when hit by Foot Soldiers thrown towards the screen as in some Turtles movie? Anyway, I'm sure these potential problems will not ruin the tournament. I'm sure we can find a satisfactory judgment for each battle, even though some guys like the silly off-screen Tetris God with his multi-personal Arkanoid ball-and-paddle friend will surely complain about our rules. In Tetris, I'd say the pieces deliver damage when they drop downwards and receive damage when hit with any weapon. For Arkanoid, I'd say that the ball is the weapon and the paddle is the character who receives damage. Maybe we should just disqualify all games that don't have distinguishable characters and games that behave strangely during the battle? Well, only time will show what we do. Let the tournament begin! The Tournament: The battles are fought in alphabetical order, following the NES game list, so the first battle of the first round is right here: 8 Eyes VS A Boy and His Blob --> Winner advances to the next round! The second battle would be: The Addams Family VS Adventures of Bayou Billy After Zanac and Zen the Intergalactic Ninja have finished their battle, we start the next round. Understood? Good! All the battles of the tournament winner will be compiled into a single AVI file, which shows a series of interesting battles and will possibly receive the innovative "TAS" of 2010 trophy, or maybe not. Oh, I almost forgot! We need a Lua script for easily following the battles! (I tried to watch some battle with AVI files side by side, but it's hard to tell whether Lolo actually hit the opponent with his egg-shot or not!) I guess all the script needs to do is to run two TASes on top of each other simultaneously, displaying OBJ layer only? Who can do this? Also, who can guess the winner? I bet the winner is Mario from some of his many TASes, or the spaceship from Zanac who shoots lots of projectiles in almost any direction! Also, remember that TAS means Take All Seriously! If you didn't already, NOW is the time to take this tournament seriously!
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now if there are multiples of games? like super mario bros 1,2,3 does that count as one game, or three separate games. If they are three games, would the same character battle each other?
[19:16] <scrimpy> silly portuguese [19:16] <scrimpy> it's like spanish, only less cool
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funnyhair wrote:
now if there are multiples of games? like super mario bros 1,2,3 does that count as one game, or three separate games. If they are three games, would the same character battle each other?
Good question! Maybe they should fight with themselves, so that each published TAS is a separate competitor. They can still be treated as one character, who just happens to have an advantage of many TASes. After the final round, only one character should remain anyway.
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How are we going to deal with RPG characters? Do they only cause damage when in battle, but hit every time? What about sport game characters? That said, I think platformer characters will be at a disadvantage since they stay in the middle of the screen. Any character who spends most of their time going right will probably lose against the characters with more maneuverability. For example, if Mario were to go against the ship from Gradius, he would most likely lose horribly. That said, I think a character from an overhead game or a shooter would most likely do best. I'm going to cast my bet on the Bub and Bob from Bubble Bobble.
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arkiandruski wrote:
How are we going to deal with RPG characters? Do they only cause damage when in battle, but hit every time?
Oh, more good questions! Well, most RPGs have some attack animation, so we could see where the character hits. Maybe even outside battles, if the character has visible weapon and he uses it during a cutscene, it could cause damage. Hmm, maybe if a character has a visible shield, it offers some protection.
arkiandruski wrote:
What about sport game characters?
Well, we could let the Excitebike guy die. Some guys just can't fight. On the other hand, if he crashes his bike against the opponent and it looks funny enough, we might give him enough style points to go to the next round. Anyway, I believe most battles will have a clear winner early in the fight.
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I used transparent window on top of another to see the first battle between 8 Eyes and A Boy and His Blob. It was a bit difficult, because the screen flickered a lot. Anyway, the winner was easily determined within the first few seconds... This was supposed to be an interesting battle, because both teams had two fighters. The boy had his blob and the guy from 8 Eyes had his hawk. The boy had obviously planned to ram the rocket through his opponent from behind, but when the fight begun, the hawk immediately killed both the boy and his blob. The boy barely had the time to raise his hand for throwing the first jelly bean, when his arm was ripped off by the hawk. Then the blob died as the hawk made a furious dive through its soft body. Winner: 8 Eyes Style points: 7.6 for the fast double kill Hmm, is it possible to run two roms simultaneously via Lua scripting or does it require more advanced programming? This would be easier that way. :)
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Very confused by this whole concept. Are you taking inputs from each game or something? And how? I mean wouldn't both just be pushing against the right side of this black box?
Super Mario Bros. console speedrunner - Andrew Gardikis
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Vids please. Especially once you really figure this out.
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andrewg wrote:
Are you taking inputs from each game or something?
Yes, it's basically just two TASes overlapping each other, showing the sprite graphics from both games.
andrewg wrote:
I mean wouldn't both just be pushing against the right side of this black box?
Well, sometimes yes, but every game has it's own mechanism for moving the character and scrolling the screen. The result will be a completely random fight, but it can be fun to watch anyway. I just ran Dragon Warrior IV VS Duck Tales. Scrooge kills Ragnar during the intro cutscene by stomping on him with his stick. Running two different Adventures of Lolo games looks nice too and clearly shows how similar the games are. It might look even cooler, if more than two games were run simultaneously. You could have all the famous characters running together and fighting enemies. Oh, I guess the screenshot I posted might be a bit confusing. It is only a portion of the screen with the boy copy-pasted into it, because I can't capture real screenshots with my current method. Try it yourself: 1. Start two emulators and load a ROM for both. 2. Disable BG layer for both emulators. 3. Enable background input for both emulators. 4. Pause both emulators. 5. Playback a separate TAS in both. 6. Get a program that can make windows transparent. Put 50% transparency on the top window. 7. Unpause emulators. (When the background input is enabled, they should both unpause at the same time.) This is a bad method for many reasons, but shows the idea.
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arkiandruski wrote:
Vids please. Especially once you really figure this out.
Well... I tried to make a short demo by merging two AVIs, but I lack good tools for AVI editing, so the result does not look nice: http://aqfaq.webs.com/GodsVSGhouls-demo.wmv (It's a short segment of "Gods VS Ghouls 'n Ghosts", but the games are not in perfect synch with each other, the transparency got messy and there is no sound... so it's bad.) If any TASVideos encoders are around, they might be able to demonstrate the concept with better quality and less transparency problems. Ideally, there would be no transparency. (Metal Storm versus Metroid looked like a promising fight, so if somebody wants to make a better quality AVI demo, maybe try those games.)
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What if a character uses an elemental-strong-or-weak-against-something/ill-status-causing/energy-or-item-stealing/full-screen/high-frequency-multiple-hits/one-hit-KO attack as it does in the original TAS?
<klmz> it reminds me of that people used to keep quoting adelikat's IRC statements in the old good days <adelikat> no doubt <adelikat> klmz, they still do
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First, let's forget the previous damage-rule that I mentioned in the first post (that "the amount of damage taken by a hit is the average damage taken from enemies in the character's own game"). The best way to estimate damage is to compare the appearances of the characters and observe what their weapons do in their games. Something like this: Scrooge can defeat gorillas with his stick, so it is reasonable to assume that when he stomps on Ragnar, who is at low exp-level, chatting with the king, wearing weak armor, Ragnar is severely damaged. It can be observed that Scrooge hits him multiple times, so my judgment is that Ragnar dies on his imaginary throne room carpet, never knowing what hit him. (It makes perfect sense, because Ragnar's weakness is that he pays too much attention to the king and likes to prepare for each of his endeavors with care. Scrooge on the other hand, acts immediately, dollars in his eyes, not hesitating to use foul play.) If somebody disagrees with the judgment in favor of Ragnar, then we will listen to the objections. In a difficult case, we could consult the authors of the TASes (for detailed estimations on how much damage Scrooge delivered to Ragnar etc.) After a reasonable consensus is achieved, the battle winner is truly declared.
klmz wrote:
What if a character uses an elemental-strong-or-weak-against-something/ill-status-causing/energy-or-item-stealing/full-screen/high-frequency-multiple-hits/one-hit-KO attack as it does in the original TAS?
- Strengths/Weaknesses will be estimated with common sense and with available facts about the characters: If Megaman uses snake shots against Indiana Jones, the result is obviously devastating. - Ill-status causing attacks might be deadly or have no effect at all, depending on the situation. These are rare events. However, if Tetris blocks or the marble ball from Marble Madness are poisoned, then we will ask Dr. Mario what he thinks about it. - Energy or item-stealing attacks are unlikely, but using something like that on someone who has no energy or no items would probably have no effect. If the Gradius ship is hit with item stealing attack, then we will observe every detail closely and decide, whether the attack disabled some of the ship's weapons or not. - Full-screen attacks are a very good weapon in this tournament, but not many competitors have them and survive long enough to use them. - High-frequency-multiple-hits will probably cause death immediately, but they are often used at short distances, so the chance to hit the opponent is small. Slow shots that travel long distances are better, but if a projectile travels through somebody, it is considered a single hit, unless it's something like a metal blade that rotates in the air or fire that burns over a period of time. - A one-hit-KO is a one-hit-KO, unless good arguments arise concerning the receiving character's possible counter-abilities. Everyone can be a judge in this tournament and this is a good opportunity to show your knowledge about game characters. When watching a battle, I would personally think that an object can be considered part of the arena equipment, even if it's not a player character, but acts in good style or looks otherwise effectively involved in the fight. Anyway, the primary attention is in the player characters and their weapons only.
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Well, here we have a short demo of Metroid (any%) VS Metal Storm. I think the winner can be judged from the first minute. The first hit is delivered when Samus receives small burns on the back of her helmet, but soon after that, M-308 Gunner got hit with one or two well-aimed upwards shots by Samus. However, M-308 Gunner was in flame form while getting hit, which might provide enough protection for him to survive. If that is the case, then M-308 Gunner wins while chasing Samus and roasting her in the elevator shaft. However, in normal conditions, M-308 Gunner dies from ANY hit instantly, so if Samus managed to deliver a hit during M-308 Gunner's flame dive, then M-308 Gunner died first. Unfortunately, M-308 Gunner was very close to Samus at that moment, so even if M-308 Gunner was destroyed, Samus might have died in the process too. M-308 Gunner has one of the BIGGEST explosive deaths I've ever seen in NES games, so the flames would have engulfed Samus completely. I think it's either both of them died or M-308 Gunner won. In either case, Samus loses. Winner: M-308 Gunner from Metal Storm Best moment: Samus trying to shoot M-308 Gunner, but not reaching the target due to short-range beam weapon, M-308 Gunner then making a fast backwards charge towards Samus, Samus dodging it, then M-308 Gunner getting stuck into a blue door.
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The laziest way is to overlay the existing published AVIs (with VirtualDub or similar program). This was the longest battle I've watched so far. After 5 minutes of avoiding each other, the guy from Faxanadu attacked from behind with his knife. I think Felix the Cat did not survive that one.
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arkiandruski wrote:
Vids please. Especially once you really figure this out.
Seconded because I'm really desperate for videos(and I'm lazy so I quoted).
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This whole concept is baffling.