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Lex wrote:
The only game I've bought within the past 3 years was World of Warcraft, and that's because the security for it required me to buy it.
Damn those greedy game companies making money out of their games? They should distribute their games for free, like every other company does?
Lex
Joined: 6/25/2007
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Location: Vancouver, British Columbia, Canada
I didn't say I disliked them for it. I respect Blizzard a lot, and was happily willing to pay for World of Warcraft. If more great games had great security requiring payment, maybe more game companies would make money and not have to complain about piracy. I understand that it's theoretically impossible to make an uncrackable single-player game without having data served from the server, making that option inaccessible for most small game developing companies. I also buy games I REALLY REALLY enjoy, like how I bought EarthBound after playing it on an emulator.
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In other words, "If more games had effective anti-piracy techniques, maybe piracy wouldn't be such a problem"? The problem being that for games where the publisher doesn't have inherent control over an important part of the gameplay (e.g. the remote servers that are a requirement to play an MMO*), anti-piracy techniques tend to be more harmful for the legitimate players than effective at stopping piracy. * Discounting private servers, since as a general rule most of your friends won't be on those.
Pyrel - an open-source rewrite of the Angband roguelike game in Python.
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Derakon wrote:
anti-piracy techniques tend to be more harmful for the legitimate players than effective at stopping piracy.
Actually some anti-piracy measures in single-player games have been surprisingly effective. IIRC, one of the Splinter Cell games had an anti-piracy measure which took over one year for hackers to crack. That's quite impressive, given that the average game gets cracked and distributed even before it hits the shelves. One thing which bothers me is the attitude many people have towards software piracy (moreso because I earn my living as a game programmer myself, so game piracy really hits home in my case). For example the "Pirate Party" in Finland has the opinion that it should be the constitutional and basic human right for people to be able to copy and distribute all the music, movies and software they want free of charge, and that eg. software companies should not have the legal right to demand money for the use of their products (in other words, programmers should not have the right to make their living out of their programming jobs). That's not an exaggeration. I have talked with them, and they have expressed that opinion more or less literally. Guess if that kind of attitude grinds my gears.
Lex
Joined: 6/25/2007
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Location: Vancouver, British Columbia, Canada
That Splinter Cell security story is inspiring. I have always thought there could be very very complex security that could take a very long time to crack. From the sounds of it, the Pirate Party in Finland takes the idea too far. That's absurd.
Joined: 10/20/2006
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I don't think piracy is bad if people act somewhat reasonable. I wouldn't even have bought a quarter of the amount of games and CDs in the past years if I wouldn't have had the chance to try them (or similar games/CDs) for free. Why do I try them first? Because I don't want to waste money by buying a pig in a poke. And re-selling them would be too troublesome. Why do I buy them after trying? Because I can identify myself with them, and I want to have them in my room. So that people get to know me better just by looking around my room. And I don't want to have any garbage that I regret buying lying around. My point is that maybe piracy benefits the industry more than hurting it. It's just difficult to display the positive effect in numbers. But I know the PS1 outsold the N64 for reasons like that. Piracy is free advertisment. :p Shareware doesn't work as well because it never shows the whole picture.
Lex
Joined: 6/25/2007
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Location: Vancouver, British Columbia, Canada
I agree with Kuwaga. To me, it seems piracy has a symbiotic relationship with software and music companies, giving as much as, if not more than, it takes. I've had this conversation a ton of times though, so I'm going to stop here personally.
Joined: 5/13/2006
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I generally buy sequels to games that I've had fun with and promise to be interesting new, if I have the money. Anything I'm iffy about I wait to buy, and see if I can't get it used. That way I already get a discount, and I don't lose so much on a trade-in if I end up not liking it or getting much replay value out of it.
<Zurreco> if so called professional players cant adapt to every playing field, theyre obviously not that great
nesrocks
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Warp: yeah, I've read about that and it's incredible that there is a party that defends such a position. It's insane that they just say "hey, everything should be free" without actually presenting a viable solution for that to happen. Kuwaga: that's kind of what I tend to do too. But I twist it a bit: I spend all my money on games. I spend it on games that I feel that deserve my money. But I want to play more than I can afford, so I try some games first for free. Sometimes I buy games waaaaay after I've played them to exaustion (age of empires 2 for example, I've finally bought it after years of playing), just because I've felt like it deserves it. If only everyone could do this... I've heard people who actually love videogames say "hell no, I will NEVER spend money on games, because they are available for free!" with a lot of pride on saying that, because it would be really stupid to pay for something that is free. That is how piracy is encrusted in our culture.
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FODA wrote:
I've heard people who actually love videogames say "hell no, I will NEVER spend money on games, because they are available for free!" with a lot of pride on saying that, because it would be really stupid to pay for something that is free. That is how piracy is encrusted in our culture.
What these people do not realize (or refuse to think about, or outright just don't care) is that they are pirating the software at the expense of honest, paying customers. In other words, the "fools" who pay for the software are also paying for those pirated copies. It's the paying customers who are keeping the software company alive, and the software company has to price their products according to how well they sell. More piracy means that they sell less, meaning that prices go higher, which means that the paying customers are paying for the pirated copies. Then there's the moral issue (which most people don't seem to give a rat's ass about): By using a pirated software you are using someone else's hard work without giving him the money he deserves. You are directly benefiting from someone else without giving anything back. That's really selfish. But of course people don't care. And I just can't stand all the tired excuses that most people make. It would even be better if all people were just direct and honest, and directly admitted that "yes, I'm abusing someone's hard work, I'm using it for my own benefit and not giving anything back, I'm being selfish, and I don't give a damn" rather than come up with all the old, tired excuses. At least it would be honest.
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Joined: 12/1/2007
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I do not want to support companies who use DRM and other anti-piracy methods at the expense of honest, paying customers. When I buy a product, I demand the freedom to do what I want with it. If copying a legally obtained game for my neighbor to enjoy is against the law, I have no sympathy for this industry.
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Johannes wrote:
If copying a legally obtained game for my neighbor to enjoy is against the law, I have no sympathy for this industry.
I fail to follow your logic here. Exactly why should you be able to copy a commercial product for your neighbor without the proper payment? How does the fact that you obtained the game legally affect this in any way? I don't understand. Is your logic that if you buy something legally you should be able to distribute it for free for others? I don't follow. Also I don't understand why you "have no sympathy for this industry" if it's illegal to distribute commercial products to others. I fail to follow your logic here as well.
nesrocks
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Imagine if people could copy cars, televisions... They already "can" copy some other stuff.
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Warp wrote:
Exactly why should you be able to copy a commercial product for your neighbor without the proper payment? How does the fact that you obtained the game legally affect this in any way? I don't understand. Is your logic that if you buy something legally you should be able to distribute it for free for others? I don't follow.
Yeah, see, when you're a kid and you're given some candy or whatever, you're told that sharing is good and you should give some to your friends, while hogging it up all for yourself is seen as social offense. When you grow up you're told sharing is bad, and in fact is a criminal offense. Follow this one.
Warp wrote:
Edit: I think I understand now: It's my avatar, isn't it? It makes me look angry.
nesrocks
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If by sharing you could give say levels 2 and 3 to a friend, and keep levels 1, 4 and 5 to yourself then it would be the same analogy :)
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FODA wrote:
If by sharing you could give say levels 2 and 3 to a friend, and keep levels 1, 4 and 5 to yourself then it would be the same analogy :)
What if I'm willing to be generous and thus give all my candy to a friend?
Warp wrote:
Edit: I think I understand now: It's my avatar, isn't it? It makes me look angry.
nesrocks
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But if I do the same with software (share with somebody else and remove it entirely from my possession), I'm still a criminal. What's the deal?
Warp wrote:
Edit: I think I understand now: It's my avatar, isn't it? It makes me look angry.
nesrocks
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Oh, that. Yeah, that's crazy. I put it on the same bag as "if you're watching this movie outside of [put country name here] you're involved in a crime".
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Either way the whole idea of sharing that was paramount to group survival and such has been corrupted by capitalistic approach of concentrating material goods as opposed to distributing them. No wonder people generally grow more selfish in countries where it happens to be the dominant line of behavior.
Warp wrote:
Edit: I think I understand now: It's my avatar, isn't it? It makes me look angry.
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If only the companies would try to adapt to the new times instead of restlessly fighting "piracy"..
Post subject: my take on the speed/entertainment debate
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Well, this is an interesting issue, and I tend to see both sides of the argument. As Warp (for example) mentions, games take real resources (time, money) to produce, and so those who expend those resources deserve to be compensated for their investment. On the other hand (as many have stated), games are expensive and I do not have an excess of money to spend on them. I like to think that my enjoyment of a game is at least a bit of repayment to those who have developed it, somewhat like the satisfaction I and others get by investing time to make TAS movies. Of course it doesn't take money to do that etc but I think the point stands. That said, let's look at the recent games I have purchased (or at least those I remember purchasing): World of Goo ($20) -- I have always enjoyed bridge building games, and there was a lot of positive press on this being both very well done and also being independent and not protected. I played through it once and my partner also enjoyed a couple of levels, which is of note as she is not much one for video games. Braid ($15) -- I decided to buy this for PC when it came out after playing the demo on a friend's Xbox (and perhaps also because like World of Goo it had positive press relating to gameplay and being independent). I still have not beaten it, due to a combination of not being smart and also it not running terribly well on my sort of old PC (I do have vague plans of beating it someday; I have done about 75% of the levels and enjoyed them). Audiosurf ($10) -- I got this after it was mentioned on these very forums. It was fun and the price point was right. I don't play it any more, but maybe I will someday. But, I have probably played it at least as much as the games above. Portal ($5) -- Got this on sale on Steam at the same time as Audiosurf. Great price! Unfortunately it does not run well on my computer and also I am not good at first person shooters (even if this isn't much of one, it still is). So, I have not played it except for maybe an hour or less when I first got it. Again, good press on this (and word of mouth from friends too actually), though this time mostly on it being a very cool game. The Fool and His Money ($50) -- I paid $50 for this and I still don't have it. However -- I am very excited to be getting it when it is done, hopefully this year. It is a puzzle game by Cliff Johnson who made two of my favorite games, 3 in Three and Fool's Errand. They all feature interesting puzzles plus a lot of "meta puzzles" where clues from all over the game help. These earlier games are available for free (!) at thefoolandhismoney.com (The appropriateness of the title of this game in juxtaposition with my current situation vis a vis payment and game-having has not escaped me.) So I guess what makes me buy a game/not buy a game is knowing about a game, the game's politics, and the price point, all weighed by my irrational mind.
I make a comic with no image files and you should read it. While there is a lower class, I am in it, and while there is a criminal element I am of it, and while there is a soul in prison, I am not free. -Eugene Debs
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moozooh wrote:
Warp wrote:
Exactly why should you be able to copy a commercial product for your neighbor without the proper payment? How does the fact that you obtained the game legally affect this in any way? I don't understand. Is your logic that if you buy something legally you should be able to distribute it for free for others? I don't follow.
Yeah, see, when you're a kid and you're given some candy or whatever, you're told that sharing is good and you should give some to your friends, while hogging it up all for yourself is seen as social offense. When you grow up you're told sharing is bad, and in fact is a criminal offense. Follow this one.
The analogy is flawed. You don't "share" candy. You give candy. You physically stop owning a piece of candy by giving it to somebody else, so you can't use it anymore yourself. That's not sharing. An equivalent would be if you buy a game disc and then give it to someone else, so that you can't play it yourself anymore. That's quite different from copying the game.
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And yet many game publishers are doing everything they can to shut down secondhand sales of games, too. Orthogonal to the piracy stuff, I know, but I do find it interesting.
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Warp wrote:
An equivalent would be if you buy a game disc and then give it to someone else, so that you can't play it yourself anymore. That's quite different from copying the game.
See my response to FODA above. Assume I've bought a game disc. I'm now going to give it to my friend for him to play. Common situation, right? But in certain European countries I would be transgressing the law — nevermind that I bought the disc and can do whatever I want with it. Should I also prohibit myself from playing while my friend does? That would be hilarious… but that's what your statement implies. I still own the right to play the game because I paid money for it, otherwise I could safely claim that every piece of your property I can lay my hand upon is mine because I now "physically own" it. But I would still be a criminal in either case! Back when analog media was popular, it was common sense to make copies of CC and VHS tapes. We can't legally do that now with digital media. Why? Because now that right-holders (the labels, not the artists) can interfere they are going to interfere — just because they can get more money off of it. Did it help the artists any? Yeah, right. What about pay per view services? Most ridiculous shit ever. Yet that limited installation DRM scheme mentioned in the first few posts is largely the same thing, and that kind of "protection" is going to be made more and more popular if publishers get their way with it.
Johannes wrote:
When I buy a product, I demand the freedom to do what I want with it. If copying a legally obtained game for my neighbor to enjoy is against the law, I have no sympathy for this industry.
That.
Warp wrote:
Edit: I think I understand now: It's my avatar, isn't it? It makes me look angry.