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Posted: 8/16/2009 6:43 PM
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Jiruru
She/Her
Joined: 11/29/2006
Posts: 9
I believe the difference in the G-Soldiers' health comes from the way the game determines enemy level. Every enemy (except some bosses) will be randomly 20% above or 20% below the party's average (that's not a range, only those two points), so if your level never changes there, the G-Soldiers will always have 87 or 105 HP, depending on if it's the higher or lower roll. Maybe it's manipulatable to have them all be at 87 HP somehow but I have no idea how manipulation works for this so I dunno.
Posted: 8/16/2009 7:23 PM
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nfq
Player (94)
Joined: 5/10/2005
Posts: 1204
mz wrote:
I haven't tried this one yet, but I think you are correct. Though I don't know why darkwasabi didn't use it...
he didn't know about it back then. his speedrun is a little outdated. he later found several improvements to the run (for example, renaming Squall into S would save some time) and he was going to make another speedrun, but he never finished it.
Youtube channel | Goldeneye and PD TAS times
Posted: 8/16/2009 10:59 PM
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Tub
Joined: 6/25/2005
Posts: 1377
mz wrote:
About the crisis levels: is it possible to even know in what level are you at the moment? I mean, how do you know if you are in level 1, 2, 3 or 4?
That's the thing. It seems generally accepted that there are four different levels for each limit break (and at least for Micro Missiles, there actually are). Some people seem to have concluded that there must be four corresponding danger levels, but I have yet to see any evidence for that. In fact, there are some indications to the opposite:
  • the chance to get "Limit Break" when choosing your action doesn't seem to be limited to four different percentages (although with statistics, it's difficult to tell)
  • you don't even get the same Limit Break Level every time under identical conditions (as you notice for renzokuken and I confirmed for Micro Missiles)
  • there's just a single source on the net for those claims, and everyone else just copied them
Again, I *think* there's an internal bonus that's raised by life lost, aura, bad statuses and KOed suckers, and that influences all the other RNG rolls that determine the chance to do a limit break and it's outcome. If that value is actually stored in memory (and not just temporary kept on the stack in intermediate calculations), it should be easy to find: if you keep a character free of damage and status effects, it won't change for several rounds of combat. Then it'll change when casting aura. (ignore the one that changes from 100 to 99 ;)) (I'd try it myself, but I'm on linux and somewhat stuck with epsxe)
m00
Posted: 8/16/2009 11:13 PM
Quote
Paused
Joined: 5/9/2005
Posts: 752
nfq wrote:
(for example, renaming Squall into S would save some time)
That one is pretty lame.
Posted: 8/16/2009 11:20 PM
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Bag_of_Magic_Food
He/Him
Player (206)
Joined: 5/29/2004
Posts: 5712
What, I thought one-letter nicknames were pretty cool.
put yourself in my rocketpack if that poochie is one outrageous dude
Posted: 8/17/2009 12:41 AM
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nfq
Player (94)
Joined: 5/10/2005
Posts: 1204
Paused wrote:
That one is pretty lame.
maybe, but the purpose of speedruns is to be fast, so it doesn't matter if they are lame or boring. radix from SDA said that they don't make entertainment; they make speedruns. entertainment is just a common side effect of speed. but in tasvideos, we don't only care about speed, we also care if the TASes are entertaining.
Youtube channel | Goldeneye and PD TAS times
Posted: 8/17/2009 1:04 AM
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funnyhair
Player (118)
Joined: 5/13/2009
Posts: 700
Location: suffern, ny
Hey Mz. what is your thought on the seed level? does it matter or not? i think it might give you money, if so, there are errors you made to get a higher one. on another note, i was very impressed with the run. also would it be faster to rent a car form dollet to balamb? if its not then it doesnt matter, but it might be faster using trains or a car to get around, especially because you avoid battles. Not bad, im was impressed, but here a little something to help with the entertainment, i think right before the the battle with biggs and wedge, or right before the cut scene, you character is movable, you can run around and what now.
[19:16] <scrimpy> silly portuguese [19:16] <scrimpy> it's like spanish, only less cool
Posted: 8/17/2009 5:34 AM
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Mastania
He/Him
Joined: 5/30/2009
Posts: 135
Location: Top of the pops
Crisis Levels make a big difference to the damage of Quistis' Blue Magic, especially at low Magic ratings, as opposed to everyone else where it mostly just raises the odds of a better outcome/increases length. For example, a CLv1 Laser Eye will hit Ifrit for about 140, while CLv2 hits for about 200, making it far more comeptitive vs Renzokuken. It should be possible to reach level 2 just from low HP ._. Zell's normal physical attack is by far the fastest animation-wise, so it could save time to junction him up when only normal hits are needed. I also suspect that it's faster overall to use Irvine's limit break for battles rather than Squall's as long at there's enough ammo available. Summons should also be slightly more powerful than usual due to magic TAS button-mashing skillz. I don't know if you're getting Diabolos or not, but consider learning Darkside at some point if you do; at 3x base damage it's nearly as strong as a 4-hit Renzo and has a much faster animation.
Waddle Waggle Wattle
Posted: 8/17/2009 7:14 AM
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Tub
Joined: 6/25/2005
Posts: 1377
funnyhair wrote:
Hey Mz. what is your thought on the seed level? does it matter or not?
Seed salary is paid after a fixed number of steps. Since a speedrun/tas doesn't walk around too much, it won't get paid very often.
m00
Posted: 8/17/2009 12:24 PM
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funnyhair
Player (118)
Joined: 5/13/2009
Posts: 700
Location: suffern, ny
thank you tub
[19:16] <scrimpy> silly portuguese [19:16] <scrimpy> it's like spanish, only less cool
Posted: 8/17/2009 2:11 PM
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computerbird
Player (107)
Joined: 1/5/2008
Posts: 84
Location: china
mz wrote:
None yet. :P darkwasabi used Renzokuken for Granaldo and Shiva for the 3 Raldo; I'll see if there is a faster way in a TAS.
So Shiva learned Boost~ Hmm, i think kill a Caterchipillar to got a Spider Web (also have 2AP), let Quistis learn the Ultra Waves. In that battle: Granaldo Lv=7~9 HP=1432~1482 Raldo Lv=7~9 HP=203~243 If Quistis's crisis levels =2, the Ultra Waves's damege to Raldo(LV9) will be 226~257, how about crisis levels =3? The damege will be 324~367! And Renzokuken for Granaldo, if you did a good luck manipulation, you can finished this battle in 3~4 rounds. ( 2rounds to attack Quistis) By the way, Wizard Stone*16 must be get, they will be very useful lol. Maybe in this way will be better than use Shiva, in my opinion, sunmon an GF is the worst way in a TA run, and the GF's AP is very rarer...
mz wrote:
About the crisis levels: is it possible to even know in what level are you at the moment? I mean, how do you know if you are in level 1, 2, 3 or 4?
That's a problem, i can't find any RAM address to show the crisis levels, but i know if you press circle again and again, the crisis levels might be changed.
mz wrote:
I haven't tried this one yet, but I think you are correct. Though I don't know why darkwasabi didn't use it...
Maybe for the Seed Rank? I think that's not a problem, the TEST in Tutorial will solution it perfact- - EDIT: some thing i have fogot- -: Please rent a car form balamb to Garden! Becase you can use it when you leave the Garden!!
I'm coming to here to learn English~
Posted: 8/18/2009 12:12 AM
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Desty
Joined: 12/3/2008
Posts: 15
Location: Dublin
Jiruru wrote:
I believe the difference in the G-Soldiers' health comes from the way the game determines enemy level. Every enemy (except some bosses) will be randomly 20% above or 20% below the party's average (that's not a range, only those two points), so if your level never changes there, the G-Soldiers will always have 87 or 105 HP, depending on if it's the higher or lower roll. Maybe it's manipulatable to have them all be at 87 HP somehow but I have no idea how manipulation works for this so I dunno.
I've been enjoying this thread/run so far, nice to see a more complicated game get TASed, especially on the PSX. WRT the +/-20% of average level thing, that would certainly be worth investigating - if a sacrifice of a few frames could get a fight with two soldiers that are killable in one hit each (and similarly later in the game), that'd be a massive timesaver.
Posted: 8/21/2009 6:47 PM
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Pikachu
Former player
Joined: 4/17/2009
Posts: 88
any updates?
Posted: 8/21/2009 10:23 PM
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mz
Emulator Coder, Player (79)
Joined: 10/26/2007
Posts: 693
This is from a PM I sent to computerbird recently (we're going to work together on a real TAS of this game):
By the way, due to what happened with Metal Gear Solid (it crashes before the final boss) recently, I decided to put this run on hold and just concentrate on rewriting the sound plugin; and maybe keep working on the test TAS once in a while, to see if the game can at least be completed in PCSX.
(MGS crashes due to hacks in the SPU plugin to prevent movie desyncs.)
You're just fucking stupid, everyone hates you, sorry to tell you the truth. no one likes you, you're someone pretentious and TASes only to be on speed game, but don't have any hope, you won't get there.
Posted: 8/22/2009 2:03 AM
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BrutalAl
Joined: 7/9/2008
Posts: 15
You should familiarize yourself some more with the walk-trick (aka repm, aka stuttering). If it is your belief that it is not applicable in a TAS you need to think again. In very Short There is a DangerValue that is incremented with each step you run/walk. Each Step has it's own DangerLimit (the limits are randomly distributed, but set in stone). If your DangerValue surpasses the current step's DangerLimit you'll get a battle, but if your DangerValue is below or equal to the step's DangerLimit you won't. A running step increases the DangerValue by 5. A walking step increases the DangerValue by 2. An example Let's say the very first step's DangerLimit is 3. If you run the first step your DangerValue will be 5, and you will thus get a battle (5>3). But if you walk the first step instead your DangerValue will be only 2, and you will thus not get a battle (2<=3). A step is registered as a running or walking step on the frame the StepID goes from X to X+1, so you will only have to walk for one frame in order to get the entire step registered as a walk.
Posted: 8/22/2009 2:51 AM
Quote
mz
Emulator Coder, Player (79)
Joined: 10/26/2007
Posts: 693
BrutalAl wrote:
A step is registered as a running or walking step on the frame the StepID goes from X to X+1, so you will only have to walk for one frame in order to get the entire step registered as a walk.
Oh... This I didn't know. I guess this is what makes the whole thing useful in a TAS. I will have to find a way to do this automatically with a Lua script, or it will become boring as fuck just trying to find the first frame of each step. Thanks for the information.
You're just fucking stupid, everyone hates you, sorry to tell you the truth. no one likes you, you're someone pretentious and TASes only to be on speed game, but don't have any hope, you won't get there.
Posted: 8/22/2009 3:49 AM
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BrutalAl
Joined: 7/9/2008
Posts: 15
I honestly don't get how that fact would be the one to change your mind on the subject. Walking one (or a few) steps is much faster than having to face and flee from a random battle, and this holds true even if you walk all of the frames during the steps. Also note, you will not want to make every step a walking step because it can not always remove battles. Force instance If the DangerLimit for the 5th step is 1 it will not matter if you walk or run all the steps up to the 5th one, because you will still get a battle on the 5th one no matter what, and since walking is slower than running it would just be a waste of time to walk (The DangerValue is set back to 0 after each random encounter anyway).
Posted: 8/22/2009 4:23 AM
Quote
mz
Emulator Coder, Player (79)
Joined: 10/26/2007
Posts: 693
BrutalAl wrote:
I honestly don't get how that fact would be the one to change your mind on the subject. Walking one (or a few) steps is much faster than having to face and flee from a random battle, and this holds true even if you walk all of the frames during the steps.
Walking "a few" steps didn't look faster than escaping from a battle in my tests, since I needed to walk quite a few steps just to delay most battles. I thought with your trick I could keep the DangerValue relatively low, with minimal speed loss, if I apply it to most steps; but I haven't made any tests yet, so I don't know how that will work, but you seem to be sure it's not a good idea.
You're just fucking stupid, everyone hates you, sorry to tell you the truth. no one likes you, you're someone pretentious and TASes only to be on speed game, but don't have any hope, you won't get there.
Posted: 8/22/2009 11:55 AM
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BrutalAl
Joined: 7/9/2008
Posts: 15
Well, as I said in my previous post, walking will just be a waste of time at some times since the dangevalue is set back to 0 after a random battle anyway. If step 50 has a dangerlimit of 0 (and there is no battle on step 1-49) it is obviously not possible to dodge the battle on this step, so walking any steps prior to it is just a waste of time. Just because a battle can be dodge by walking doesn't mean you have to walk all the steps up to it. Yet another example Let's say step 5 has a dangerlimit of 19. If you run all steps up to it your dangervalue will be 25, and you'll thus get a battle. If you instead walk all the steps your dangervalue will be 10, and you'll thus dodge the battle. But, you don't have to walk all the steps prior to the 5th one. If you walk 2 steps, but run 3, your dangervalue will be (2*2)+(3*5)=19, and battle will be dodged. So, walking wont always work, and for when it does you don't have to walk all the steps up to the battle you want skipped. Here's a list of each StepID's DangerLimit (can be found @ address 800C3520 to 800C361F)
Stp	DngLmt
00	7
01	182
02	240
03	31
04	85
05	91
06	55
07	227
08	174
09	79
10	178
11	94
12	153
13	246
14	119
15	203
16	96
17	143
18	67
19	62
20	167
21	76
22	45
23	136
24	199
25	104
26	215
27	209
28	194
29	242
30	193
31	221
32	170
33	147
34	22
35	247
36	38
37	4
38	54
39	161
40	70
41	78
42	86
43	190
44	108
45	110
46	128
47	213
48	181
49	142
50	164
51	158
52	231
53	202
54	206
55	33
56	255
57	15
58	212
59	140
60	230
61	211
62	152
63	71
64	244
65	13
66	21
67	237
68	196
69	228
70	53
71	120
72	186
73	218
74	39
75	97
76	171
77	185
78	195
79	125
80	133
81	252
82	149
83	107
84	48
85	173
86	134
87	0
88	141
89	205
90	126
91	159
92	229
93	239
94	219
95	89
96	235
97	5
98	20
99	201
100	36
101	44
102	160
103	60
104	68
105	105
106	64
107	113
108	100
109	58
110	116
111	124
112	132
113	19
114	148
115	156
116	150
117	172
118	180
119	188
120	3
121	222
122	84
123	220
124	197
125	216
126	12
127	183
128	37
129	11
130	1
131	28
132	35
133	43
134	51
135	59
136	151
137	27
138	98
139	47
140	176
141	224
142	115
143	204
144	2
145	74
146	254
147	155
148	163
149	109
150	25
151	56
152	117
153	189
154	102
155	135
156	63
157	175
158	243
159	251
160	131
161	10
162	18
163	26
164	34
165	83
166	144
167	207
168	122
169	139
170	82
171	90
172	73
173	106
174	114
175	40
176	88
177	138
178	191
179	14
180	6
181	162
182	253
183	250
184	65
185	101
186	210
187	77
188	226
189	92
190	29
191	69
192	30
193	9
194	17
195	179
196	95
197	41
198	121
199	57
200	46
201	42
202	81
203	217
204	93
205	166
206	234
207	49
208	129
209	137
210	16
211	103
212	245
213	169
214	66
215	130
216	112
217	157
218	146
219	87
220	225
221	61
222	241
223	249
224	238
225	8
226	145
227	24
228	32
229	177
230	165
231	187
232	198
233	72
234	80
235	154
236	214
237	127
238	123
239	233
240	118
241	223
242	50
243	111
244	52
245	168
246	208
247	184
248	99
249	200
250	192
251	236
252	75
253	232
254	23
255	248
Posted: 8/22/2009 3:05 PM
Quote
funnyhair
Player (118)
Joined: 5/13/2009
Posts: 700
Location: suffern, ny
walking everywhere= bad idea. Driving in a car and taking trains to avoid battles= good idea. How come so many people have forgotten about the cars? Walk in the fields if you need to level up but if your not wouldn't it be shorter and less time consuming to take a car or a train, because there are no battles, and you move faster? Has everypone forgotten about the cars?
[19:16] <scrimpy> silly portuguese [19:16] <scrimpy> it's like spanish, only less cool
Posted: 8/22/2009 5:04 PM
Quote
mz
Emulator Coder, Player (79)
Joined: 10/26/2007
Posts: 693
BrutalAl wrote:
[...] Just because a battle can be dodge by walking doesn't mean you have to walk all the steps up to it. [...]
Thanks for all the help so far, but I already know very well how the mechanics work. The problem is, if, for example, you only walk 3 or 4 steps to skip a battle, you've not only wasted time by walking, but you're also still left with a rather high DangerValue, and you most probably won't be able to skip a battle in the next few steps...
funnyhair wrote:
walking everywhere= bad idea. Driving in a car and taking trains to avoid battles= good idea. How come so many people have forgotten about the cars? Walk in the fields if you need to level up but if your not wouldn't it be shorter and less time consuming to take a car or a train, because there are no battles, and you move faster? Has everypone forgotten about the cars?
You can always avoid random battles in the world map, without the need of cars, trains or the walking trick. Also, higher levels are a bad thing in this game. :P
You're just fucking stupid, everyone hates you, sorry to tell you the truth. no one likes you, you're someone pretentious and TASes only to be on speed game, but don't have any hope, you won't get there.
Posted: 8/22/2009 5:14 PM
Quote
funnyhair
Player (118)
Joined: 5/13/2009
Posts: 700
Location: suffern, ny
how do you avoid battles? I suggested the car not because it avoids battles, but it moves faster than you do, and many trains warp you to locations. This maybe useful for far distances you may have to move. Instead of watching your character run slowly for far away locations, you can move faster with a car, or just practically warp with a train. so instead of 15 minutes of you running to another location, you can spend 5. You see?
[19:16] <scrimpy> silly portuguese [19:16] <scrimpy> it's like spanish, only less cool
Posted: 8/22/2009 5:50 PM
Quote
mz
Emulator Coder, Player (79)
Joined: 10/26/2007
Posts: 693
funnyhair wrote:
I suggested the car not because it avoids battles, but it moves faster than you do
funnyhair wrote:
Driving in a car and taking trains to avoid battles= good idea.
:P
funnyhair wrote:
how do you avoid battles?
You only need to change your input. That is: instead of pressing left, press up, or right, etc.
You're just fucking stupid, everyone hates you, sorry to tell you the truth. no one likes you, you're someone pretentious and TASes only to be on speed game, but don't have any hope, you won't get there.
Posted: 8/22/2009 6:12 PM
Quote
funnyhair
Player (118)
Joined: 5/13/2009
Posts: 700
Location: suffern, ny
i think i should jsut shut up for a bit. you kinda got me there. i would love to see future progress. Im just a little Pumped cause this is one of my favorite fames for the PSX.
[19:16] <scrimpy> silly portuguese [19:16] <scrimpy> it's like spanish, only less cool
Posted: 8/22/2009 6:25 PM
Quote
BrutalAl
Joined: 7/9/2008
Posts: 15
mz wrote:
Thanks for all the help so far, but I already know very well how the mechanics work. The problem is, if, for example, you only walk 3 or 4 steps to skip a battle, you've not only wasted time by walking, but you're also still left with a rather high DangerValue, and you most probably won't be able to skip a battle in the next few steps...
In most (or at the very least many) cases that 2nd battle wouldn't have been avoidable by walking anyways. And again, the idea is not to always walk, the idea is to simply do it only when it's beneficial. Example Let's say step 10 has got a dangerlimit of 36. And let's say step 20 has got a dangerlimit of 9. You can avoid the battle at step 10 by walking 5 steps and running 5 steps (35<36), this will however make it impossible to dodge the battle at step 20. But, the battle at step 20 would have been unavoidable anyways, since if you had gotten the battle at step 10 and from there walk all the way to step 20 your dangervalue would have been above 9 anyways. Simply put The time save (from a skipped battle) is just as great in a TAS as in a regular speed run. While the time loss however is smaller in a TAS than in a regular run (due to the possibility to walk only at the very exact frame needed). So the overall time gain from the walk-trick should be greater in a TAS than in a regular run, and the walk-trick is worth it in a regular run... Oh, Btw, on a side note (but on the same subject) In FF7 a random battle (that is escaped instantly) is only slightly faster than saving, resetting, and then loading. The situation could be the opposite in FF8 (saving, resetting, loading < random battle) this should be tested (if it hasn't already been that is) seeing how saving (under the right circumstances) can remove the next random battle.
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