So this is looking pretty nice so far! :D Very cool Rick.
I'll see if I can find anything more to add to your TAS. One more thing and this game can be officially considered broken. Well... it already is broken... but hopefully we can break it more.
Super Mario Bros. console speedrunner
- Andrew Gardikis
And finally, we can get to the glitches!
http://dehacked.2y.net/microstorage.php/info/1676688709/gs_tas2.fcm
This WIP is at 5120 frames, or 1:25.33. (One minute, twenty five and one-third seconds.)
The locker room was hell. The showers run on a predetermined pattern, even though it appears they should be random, so slight pauses were necessary. I got the towel which was thankfully, right on the way, otherwise it would've been nearly impossible to kill the weight-lifting eyeball later. The second zombie is just mean as well. I tried everything I could to pull off the double-hit with the towel, but it would just not accept the second hit, no matter what I did. The zombie actually takes four hits, not three as it appears to look in real time. I enjoyed skipping the first zombie though.
I broke the scoreboard in the gym. While the ability to boost off the basketballs was tempting, I found it would be faster if I got rid of them all because the time spent needing to slow down for them is likely not to be matched by the amount of frames saved by boosts. I did have a little fun with the towel here though.
The weight room wasn't that bad. The first weight-lifting eyeball, I had a one-frame window to properly jump and leap off the weight to project myself over the eyeball thing. The reason I don't boost off the eyeballs in the weight room is that they take off six bars of health (yes, that's right, six bars of health), which would have therefore killed me. The second eyeball I had no choice but to kill, but I got to exhibit the double-hit trick that the towel does awesome with. (Edit: I plan on re-doing the "battle" with this thing, I think I have a better strategy to use, but whether or not I can pull it off yet is up in the air.)
After the second eyeball, I get the spring shoes finally. The next time I work on this, I'm going to redo from right before the first pause to where the end of the WIP is now.
So here's the thing about the zipping trick. In order to do this, you have to be right next to the wall with just your sneakers on. This is why I take them off. Then, you have to pause the game, put the Spring Shoes back on, then after unpausing, hold the direction away from the wall. Whether or not you properly zip depends on what frame of animation you perform the glitch at.
There is what I call a "soft" zip, and a "hard" zip. A soft zip is when you go into the wall, but if you hold the opposite direction, you will walk out of the wall as you would walk normally (this will be used once much later in the run for a big shortcut in the air ducts). A "hard" zip is when you zip like Mega Man through a wall.
So I pull off two hard zips. One through the weight equipment, and one through the wall at the end. If it seems like I'm running aimlessly into the wall for a frame or two before zipping, then that means I would have performed a soft zip instead. I perform all zips at the first possible frame.
I zip into the warp zone, go down the stairs, then jump after transporting to the next actual room to get into room 030.
The next part of the run will have me activate the invincibility glitch at the end of room 030, as after this room, boosting off enemies becomes either pointless (due to the amount of damage I'd be taking by the enemy), or would render glitches useless (such as in the room to the right of 030, where I'll be hard zipping through some spikes which, if the Invincibility Glitch isn't on, I would be knocked out of the zip).
The next WIP, after tightening this one up a little, will go from room 030 until the Crawl Space. Stay tuned, this is gonna be a massive glitchfest!
I like how you used the weights to boost over the eyeballs in the Weight Room. I figured you would just have to kill them.
This is pretty inconsequential, but when you're "tightening" the new part of the run, I think you can save a few frames right after you get the Spring Shoes by jumping repeatedly while you're under the weight machine before you switch to the Sneakers. The number of frames gained is small, but after a while it starts to add up, especially in enclosed spaces like the weight machine and the Crawl Space.
I could try it. I tried doing something similar without the shoes in the locker room, and it didn't seem to have much of an effect, but I'll try it anyway. It's definitely worth a shot.
I'm kind of hoping that this run remains un-obsoleted for a long while (unless I do it), so any "tightening up" of the run at all is welcome to hear. =)
I could try it. I tried doing something similar without the shoes in the locker room, and it didn't seem to have much of an effect, but I'll try it anyway. It's definitely worth a shot.
It only works with the Spring Shoes. Maybe the Suction Cups, too, but that's irrelevant. I tested it a little bit, and it seems that you gain 2 frames over walking with every jump. It's not much, but it could probably shave off a few seconds altogether.
I could try it. I tried doing something similar without the shoes in the locker room, and it didn't seem to have much of an effect, but I'll try it anyway. It's definitely worth a shot.
It only works with the Spring Shoes. Maybe the Suction Cups, too, but that's irrelevant. I tested it a little bit, and it seems that you gain 2 frames over walking with every jump. It's not much, but it could probably shave off a few seconds altogether.
Yeah, I bet this would save a total of 6-8 seconds maybe. 200 jumps?
Super Mario Bros. console speedrunner
- Andrew Gardikis
http://dehacked.2y.net/microstorage.php/info/1906815571/gs_tas2.fcm
New WIP time!
Starting from the second eyeball, I wasn't able to boost off him because for some reason, the way things worked out, I either got hit and went backwards from the barbell or missed it entirely, properly hitting the barbell didn't present itself as an option without slowing down. Instead, I jump entirely over it and pummel the hell out of it. I jumped up and down with the weight equipment until it was time to walk for the zipping glitch. I tightened up everything I could see. I saved 40 frames from everything here.
Room 030 wasn't that hard. It looks like it's unoptimized, but I played with a few different techniques. One was to jump twice, then get boosted. One was to jump three times, then let myself get boosted. One was to continually jump until the little eyeball could boost me faster. Option 3 was six frames slower than Option 1 for some reason, and Option 2 got nixed when the second little eyeball hit me backwards. I went into the best locker available for setting up the Invincibility Glitch. Normally when you do it, you go into the background, but if you pause quick enough, you won't. This is good, because it seriously helps when I can actually see what I'm doing.
Room 037 was utter zipping glitch spam. I start right about two frames into the room and only stop to change in and out of the shoes, and to leave the room. The first time I did this, I got halfway through and realized I was doing the long-term hard zipping wrong, so I went back, redid it, and saved ten frames.
Room 038 was simple, but I couldn't hit the janitor with the jumps. A shame, which I would've liked to, but it's not important so I won't go back and do it. Left at the soonest frame possible.
The Music Room was just a lot of jump. Again, I wanted to hit the music teacher and set off chaos, but the height I was at didn't allow me to hit him, so I was content in screwing up the sound of his scales and letting him teach his musical note creature thing its lesson.
The Chemistry Room was more jumping. I noticed after replaying that I made a bit of a speed error at the beginning of the room which definitely has cost me some untold amount of frames. When I re-do the movie, I'm gonna start from that point. I get the embalming fluid and quickly zip out of the room. I was amused that I zipped out so fast that after I unpause, the game doesn't even reload until I get to the Warp Zone.
The Warp Zone was just jump, jump, jump until I got to the door in the middle. The next room (which I don't care to look up the number to right now) was quite tricky to get into the door. It's not easy and I can't quite figure out what it is that lets you enter the door in the first place. You're supposed to have the suction cups normally. Even though I was jumping as high as I could, the game wouldn't, by normal circumstances, let me in. However, it seems that if I bump my head on something, it gives me a one frame window to enter, which of course, I take advantage of.
So the final time so far? 8146 frames, or about 2:15.54. Can I save more? You bet I can. Am I utterly impressed at how quickly I've beaten about 2/3 of the game? You bet your ass I am.
(EDIT: Problem fixed, and the movie is now at 8092 frames, 54 frames faster than the last WIP. However, the movie will not be posted here until the game is completed.)
I've got the crawl space taken care of. Actually, when I do the zip through the upper part of the classrooms, I go so fast that the screen can't keep up.
This will rock, and be the final hard part of the run.
I also have a few different ideas of beating the final boss, knocking the grate open, and finishing. I'm gonna see which way is possible, the fastest, and most entertaining.
My suggestion for the crawl space was after you zip through the classroom space, zip through the ceiling right after. Take off the shoes at the last block where you'd be ejected and jump twice and then zip a bit farther to the right.
Not sure if it'd save time or not.
Super Mario Bros. console speedrunner
- Andrew Gardikis
If I could combine it with a floor zip for the second and third classrooms, then it definitely would save time for sure. Otherwise, I'd have to walk all the way across the end of the other classrooms.
My suggestion for the crawl space was after you zip through the classroom space, zip through the ceiling right after. Take off the shoes at the last block where you'd be ejected and jump twice and then zip a bit farther to the right.
Not sure if it'd save time or not.
Rick wrote:
If I could combine it with a floor zip for the second and third classrooms, then it definitely would save time for sure. Otherwise, I'd have to walk all the way across the end of the other classrooms.
Unfortunately, that wouldn't work. While it is possible to get into the ceiling, you can only zip five or six tiles in a one-block-high wall before falling through. I don't think even that short zip would save any frames because to get far enough into the ceiling, you'd have to pause the game several times to switch between the Sneakers and Spring Shoes, probably taking up more time than just walking to the right. I haven't checked, though, so you might want to investigate that.
All the glitching you've done so far looks good, though. Watching each new WIP is great fun.
My suggestion for the crawl space was after you zip through the classroom space, zip through the ceiling right after. Take off the shoes at the last block where you'd be ejected and jump twice and then zip a bit farther to the right.
Not sure if it'd save time or not.
Rick wrote:
If I could combine it with a floor zip for the second and third classrooms, then it definitely would save time for sure. Otherwise, I'd have to walk all the way across the end of the other classrooms.
Unfortunately, that wouldn't work. While it is possible to get into the ceiling, you can only zip five or six tiles in a one-block-high wall before falling through. I don't think even that short zip would save any frames because to get far enough into the ceiling, you'd have to pause the game several times to switch between the Sneakers and Spring Shoes, probably taking up more time than just walking to the right. I haven't checked, though, so you might want to investigate that.
All the glitching you've done so far looks good, though. Watching each new WIP is great fun.
I think it would basically be pause - sneakers, zip through ceiling, pause - springs shoes. I wouldn't think it'd take too long to do that, though I could be wrong.
Super Mario Bros. console speedrunner
- Andrew Gardikis
My suggestion for the crawl space was after you zip through the classroom space, zip through the ceiling right after. Take off the shoes at the last block where you'd be ejected and jump twice and then zip a bit farther to the right.
Not sure if it'd save time or not.
Rick wrote:
If I could combine it with a floor zip for the second and third classrooms, then it definitely would save time for sure. Otherwise, I'd have to walk all the way across the end of the other classrooms.
Unfortunately, that wouldn't work. While it is possible to get into the ceiling, you can only zip five or six tiles in a one-block-high wall before falling through. I don't think even that short zip would save any frames because to get far enough into the ceiling, you'd have to pause the game several times to switch between the Sneakers and Spring Shoes, probably taking up more time than just walking to the right. I haven't checked, though, so you might want to investigate that.
All the glitching you've done so far looks good, though. Watching each new WIP is great fun.
I think it would basically be pause - sneakers, zip through ceiling, pause - springs shoes. I wouldn't think it'd take too long to do that, though I could be wrong.
Okay, I tested this. From inside the wall of the classroom, it's possible to switch to the Sneakers, jump twice, and zip four blocks out of the wall in 45 frames. The same distance can be covered in 39 frames by walking, and that's without jumping to save frames. I was wrong about needing to switch to the Spring Shoes for the next junction, though -- you can just barely make it up with the Sneakers, but it's still slower in the end.
Actually, now that I think about it, taking off the Spring Shoes to zip through the ceiling would save having to switch to the Sneakers to zip through the next classroom, but that could be offset by the advantage of using the Spring Shoes to save 2 frames with each jump. Which method is faster all depends on how many jumps can be made between one classroom and the next.
My suggestion for the crawl space was after you zip through the classroom space, zip through the ceiling right after. Take off the shoes at the last block where you'd be ejected and jump twice and then zip a bit farther to the right.
Not sure if it'd save time or not.
Rick wrote:
If I could combine it with a floor zip for the second and third classrooms, then it definitely would save time for sure. Otherwise, I'd have to walk all the way across the end of the other classrooms.
Unfortunately, that wouldn't work. While it is possible to get into the ceiling, you can only zip five or six tiles in a one-block-high wall before falling through. I don't think even that short zip would save any frames because to get far enough into the ceiling, you'd have to pause the game several times to switch between the Sneakers and Spring Shoes, probably taking up more time than just walking to the right. I haven't checked, though, so you might want to investigate that.
All the glitching you've done so far looks good, though. Watching each new WIP is great fun.
I think it would basically be pause - sneakers, zip through ceiling, pause - springs shoes. I wouldn't think it'd take too long to do that, though I could be wrong.
Okay, I tested this. From inside the wall of the classroom, it's possible to switch to the Sneakers, jump twice, and zip four blocks out of the wall in 45 frames. The same distance can be covered in 39 frames by walking, and that's without jumping to save frames. I was wrong about needing to switch to the Spring Shoes for the next junction, though -- you can just barely make it up with the Sneakers, but it's still slower in the end.
Actually, now that I think about it, taking off the Spring Shoes to zip through the ceiling would save having to switch to the Sneakers to zip through the next classroom, but that could be offset by the advantage of using the Spring Shoes to save 2 frames with each jump. Which method is faster all depends on how many jumps can be made between one classroom and the next.
I'm pretty sure this would mean that zipping is always the slower method, because You can get quite as few jumps off using the spring shoes right? or maybe there's a spot that it would be faster?
Super Mario Bros. console speedrunner
- Andrew Gardikis
My suggestion for the crawl space was after you zip through the classroom space, zip through the ceiling right after. Take off the shoes at the last block where you'd be ejected and jump twice and then zip a bit farther to the right.
Not sure if it'd save time or not.
Rick wrote:
If I could combine it with a floor zip for the second and third classrooms, then it definitely would save time for sure. Otherwise, I'd have to walk all the way across the end of the other classrooms.
Unfortunately, that wouldn't work. While it is possible to get into the ceiling, you can only zip five or six tiles in a one-block-high wall before falling through. I don't think even that short zip would save any frames because to get far enough into the ceiling, you'd have to pause the game several times to switch between the Sneakers and Spring Shoes, probably taking up more time than just walking to the right. I haven't checked, though, so you might want to investigate that.
All the glitching you've done so far looks good, though. Watching each new WIP is great fun.
I think it would basically be pause - sneakers, zip through ceiling, pause - springs shoes. I wouldn't think it'd take too long to do that, though I could be wrong.
Okay, I tested this. From inside the wall of the classroom, it's possible to switch to the Sneakers, jump twice, and zip four blocks out of the wall in 45 frames. The same distance can be covered in 39 frames by walking, and that's without jumping to save frames. I was wrong about needing to switch to the Spring Shoes for the next junction, though -- you can just barely make it up with the Sneakers, but it's still slower in the end.
Actually, now that I think about it, taking off the Spring Shoes to zip through the ceiling would save having to switch to the Sneakers to zip through the next classroom, but that could be offset by the advantage of using the Spring Shoes to save 2 frames with each jump. Which method is faster all depends on how many jumps can be made between one classroom and the next.
I'm pretty sure this would mean that zipping is always the slower method, because You can get quite as few jumps off using the spring shoes right? or maybe there's a spot that it would be faster?
Since the ceiling is so low in the Crawl Space, yeah, my money'd be on the former. It takes about 30 frames to change shoes, so you would need to make some 15 jumps between zippable classrooms to break even. Since all of the classrooms on the upper floor are separated by at least one unzippable classroom on the lower floor (if I recall correctly -- I'm not looking at a map), there should be enough room for at least that many jumps, making walking faster in all cases.
What about doing a mini-zip on that two to three block space right after the classrooms on the lower sections?
the blocks on the bottom that stick up. I'm guessing it would take too long to zip, but if you were switching back to the spring shoes at that point after doing the ceiling zip, then it might be worth it?
Super Mario Bros. console speedrunner
- Andrew Gardikis
What about doing a mini-zip on that two to three block space right after the classrooms on the lower sections?
I don't know, but my guess would be that it's too small a zip to save any frames. Besides, you'd have to go a little out of the way to use it.
I'm pretty sure it's right on the way... but if it saved 6 frames wouldn't that make up for the time because then you'd have the spring shoes again? Heh, it's probably just faster to walk, but I'm just curious now.
Super Mario Bros. console speedrunner
- Andrew Gardikis
What about doing a mini-zip on that two to three block space right after the classrooms on the lower sections?
I don't know, but my guess would be that it's too small a zip to save any frames. Besides, you'd have to go a little out of the way to use it.
I'm pretty sure it's right on the way... but if it saved 6 frames wouldn't that make up for the time because then you'd have the spring shoes again? Heh, it's probably just faster to walk, but I'm just curious now.
Oh, I see. I misunderstood your original post. You meant doing a mini-zip after zipping from the ceiling of the classroom.
Still, I don't think it'll gain any frames because then you'll actually have to pause two extra times over just walking.
Walking: walk out of wall, walk to next wall, change to sneakers, change to spring shoes, zip though next classroom...
Mini-zipping: get to end of wall, switch to sneakers, zip out, walk to small block, switch to spring shoes, zip, change to sneakers, change to spring shoes, zip through next classroom...
This is even without taking into account the frames gained from jumping with the spring shoes on. I'm about as certain as I can be without testing. Now that I think about it, it would probably have been faster to just try it by now. Oh well.
What about doing a mini-zip on that two to three block space right after the classrooms on the lower sections?
I don't know, but my guess would be that it's too small a zip to save any frames. Besides, you'd have to go a little out of the way to use it.
I'm pretty sure it's right on the way... but if it saved 6 frames wouldn't that make up for the time because then you'd have the spring shoes again? Heh, it's probably just faster to walk, but I'm just curious now.
Oh, I see. I misunderstood your original post. You meant doing a mini-zip after zipping from the ceiling of the classroom.
Still, I don't think it'll gain any frames because then you'll actually have to pause two extra times over just walking.
Walking: walk out of wall, walk to next wall, change to sneakers, change to spring shoes, zip though next classroom...
Mini-zipping: get to end of wall, switch to sneakers, zip out, walk to small block, switch to spring shoes, zip, change to sneakers, change to spring shoes, zip through next classroom...
This is even without taking into account the frames gained from jumping with the spring shoes on. I'm about as certain as I can be without testing. Now that I think about it, it would probably have been faster to just try it by now. Oh well.
Well I figure you'd have the spring shoes on again for the long hallway after zipping for the last time, the mini-zip.
Heh, it's just confusing. I bet it's slower, I'm just speculating. :D
EDIT: I should test this out myself later on actually too. I have a few ideas for doing zips like this... pausing takes so long though!
Super Mario Bros. console speedrunner
- Andrew Gardikis
What about doing a mini-zip on that two to three block space right after the classrooms on the lower sections?
I don't know, but my guess would be that it's too small a zip to save any frames. Besides, you'd have to go a little out of the way to use it.
I'm pretty sure it's right on the way... but if it saved 6 frames wouldn't that make up for the time because then you'd have the spring shoes again? Heh, it's probably just faster to walk, but I'm just curious now.
Oh, I see. I misunderstood your original post. You meant doing a mini-zip after zipping from the ceiling of the classroom.
Still, I don't think it'll gain any frames because then you'll actually have to pause two extra times over just walking.
Walking: walk out of wall, walk to next wall, change to sneakers, change to spring shoes, zip though next classroom...
Mini-zipping: get to end of wall, switch to sneakers, zip out, walk to small block, switch to spring shoes, zip, change to sneakers, change to spring shoes, zip through next classroom...
This is even without taking into account the frames gained from jumping with the spring shoes on. I'm about as certain as I can be without testing. Now that I think about it, it would probably have been faster to just try it by now. Oh well.
Well I figure you'd have the spring shoes on again for the long hallway after zipping for the last time, the mini-zip.
Heh, it's just confusing. I bet it's slower, I'm just speculating. :D
EDIT: I should test this out myself later on actually too. I have a few ideas for doing zips like this... pausing takes so long though!
Yeah, but you'd have the Spring Shoes available for jumping from the start by just walking, saving you even more frames over the mini-zip. That should more than compensate for any difference in frames, even if the mini-zip saves at least 6 (though I don't think it does anyway). This is all if my tired brain is correctly understanding you, which I'm not sure it is.
As for more mini-zips -- well, I'm not sure there's much left in the game to go through. With the route as shortened as it is, the only barriers I can think of that this glitch has been useful for are the boxes and spikes on the way to the Music Room. I once tried experimenting with zipping into the side of the Music Room, jumping into the ceiling, and zipping through it -- which works because the ceiling is 2 blocks high -- but then I realized that there's no way to get down at the end of the room.
What would be really cool would be some way to zip into the floor when coming into a room from below on solid brick stairs, something that seems possible but I wasn't able to find a way to do. What sort of ideas did you have in mind?
No, I think I was just a little mixed up on what the method was. I was thinking something entirely different.
Zipping is always faster for anything that would normally take over 30 frames, whenever the opportunity can arise for such an occasion. Hence, I take it.
Zipping through the raised part at the breaks in the crawl space won't work. I won't have enough momentum to get to the upper parts where I need to be.
OK, so my ideas about zipping WERE slower. I think I wasted around 30 frames. Well, at least we know know, walking is the fastest method instead of doing those additional zips.
Supper, I actually had the same ideas as you and zipped through the ceiling in the same spot you did. I also tried to zip through the floor horizontally with no success.
One thing I guess I could show you pertaining to the stairs:
Look at my position at frame 4012.
http://dehacked.2y.net/microstorage.php/info/68381034/weird-stairs.fcm
EDIT: If I could walk like that on the TOP step, I think I would zip through the floor.
Super Mario Bros. console speedrunner
- Andrew Gardikis
OK, so my ideas about zipping WERE slower. I think I wasted around 30 frames. Well, at least we know know, walking is the fastest method instead of doing those additional zips.
Supper, I actually had the same ideas as you and zipped through the ceiling in the same spot you did. I also tried to zip through the floor horizontally with no success.
One thing I guess I could show you pertaining to the stairs:
Look at my position at frame 4012.
http://dehacked.2y.net/microstorage.php/info/68381034/weird-stairs.fcm
EDIT: If I could walk like that on the TOP step, I think I would zip through the floor.
Agh, so close! There has to be a way...
I think the game is either zipping you through the wall but immediately detecting you're next to stairs and automatically putting you back on them, or (more maddeningly) interpreting the fact that you're pushing right to zip so you can zip to the left as a command to go down the stairs. Either way, this is just so frustratingly close to being another gigantic time-saver. I'll have to play around with this a little myself tomorrow.
Very nice trick figuring out how to run on the step, though. This game has some pretty wacky stair physics. Just try pressing up/down or left/right on them.
