No flaming here, I completely agree with you on that one, Xkeeper. The longer I put off doing a TAS, the more intimidating it gets, and that bar just keeps floating up and up. Though some of it is my fault for not making more of an effort years ago anyway.
The problem with newbies making TASes is that, well...
Consider how highly you've raised the bar.
Most well-known games are at the point of subpixels/halfframes/whatever optimization. To the point where assembly or extensive knowledge of emulator-external tools is known.
You have basically strived for a level of perfection so high that only the people who got that far in the first place can achieve it.
That is naturally true for already competed games.
Still, for new games, I wish to keep the bar lower. Unfortunately there aren't that many new games anymore...
This is why there should be more playaround TASs (TASes->speedrunes? superplayes?). There's no bar to jump over for that, just some kind of wire mesh to pass through.
I'd say it's either TASes or TAS's depending on your pronunciation. Words ending in s are pluralized with an es. On the other hand, 's is used to pluralize letters, like "How many A's did you get" to distinguish from "How many as did you get"
TASs just looks wrong to me, but I suppose it works.
It's not that there aren't new games. There are lots of them, actually, and even more are going to appear as PS1 and probably even NDS games will pour in somewhere this year. I think it lies elsewhere.
1. Most games that are supposedly good for TASing have been TASed, and they are usually TASed in the first place. Take a look at the current GBA lineup with an average rating of 7.0 and higher. Any familiar titles there? Do they amount to at least a half of GBA TAS library? Most newcomers like games that are popular, and naturally, they'd like to try TASing them in the first place. Then they inevitably find them already TASed and resign their ambitions as soon as they witness the level of optimization involved. Exceptions are rare.
Solution: none. This will happen anyway.
2. Obscure games are obscure. Many of them aren't even accepted on the ground of extreme obscurity that may not appeal to everyone, etc.. Doesn't happen every time, but it does happen. Most people that TAS those are newcomers, btw. The others are named Aqfaq.
Solution: broaden the range of material allowed on the site.
3. The audience is greedy, and is more cruel than the entire judge circle at TASvideos. In a sense that it's the audience that raises the standards too high, not the admins. If a judge can forgive lack of optimization for a first-generation TAS of any new game, the watchers will be annoyed at lack of memory watching, infuriated by lack of frame-advance, but they would praise the insane esoteric frame shaving bullshit to no end, successfully making a point that good TASes should be like this. Of course they should. But in a newcomer's perception, TASes like this are good, and what they can do with their non-existing experience is, well, bad. That opens the gate to every self-depreciating claim out there, like "I won't ever become good at this", and effectively, stop them from TASing due to the insane expertise slope they think they have to climb to make their product appreciated.
Solution: for the audience to be more moderate with their judgements, as well as their expressions.
4. The creative freedom is hindered by the site's current standards for multiple categories. An old, known problem that's been debated to no end.
Solution: adopt one of the gazillion of paradigm shifts in regards to the site's content. Never too late to.
There are probably more of such reasons, and I've listed them once when talking to adelikat and others in out secret tree club for boys™, but I don't remember everything I've said back then.
Warp wrote:
Edit: I think I understand now: It's my avatar, isn't it? It makes me look angry.
Nail on the head. TAS isn't a word. I won't say TAS's any more than I would say speedrun's, either.
Then again I find principles more important than reality, so whatever.
More playarounds! Also I agree with moozooh. Creativity is meant to be rewarded over dilligence, right? Or not right?
this site ought to have a "beginner's" section, with short video tutorials, explaining in clear subtitles how to start with the good bases.
as of now the site is too elitist.
it would help if the tools were less crude : recording a certain section several times over takes multiple steps (play with the read-only, load, save, frame advance buttons, etc.). a "play around" tool like the piano roll would bring fun and lower the wall for newcomers.
how do I know those ? if both existed, I would start TASing right away. I'm quite sure many others would.
I never sleep, 'cause sleep is the cousin of death - NAS
More newbies may come after PSX tasing is more real and stable.
Lets face it- most all popular games have already been done, and been done extremely well, for all TAS-abled systems. Its no where NEAR as much fun doing a game you didn't grow up with, and popular games are the ones most people grew up with.
Makes it difficult to get involved, excited, and fully into TASing.
OoT is a good example: Popular game, no published TAS exists utilizing all the new tricks, so 2 new inexperienced people submit runs. Both get ripped to shreads by the level of perfection required for a run on this site. As far as I know, those 2 haven't returned to this site.
Who can blame them? And who can blame others for not trying?
Not saying that this is bad or good, just saying this is the way TASes go these days. Perhaps with relaxed standards on PSX, new people will carry the torch.
Sage advice from a friend of Jim: So put your tinfoil hat back in the closet, open your eyes to the truth, and realize that the government is in fact causing austismal cancer with it's 9/11 fluoride vaccinations of your water supply.
Joined: 2/13/2007
Posts: 448
Location: Calgary, Alberta
I hope so. It may have happened accidentaly, but the attitude in posts even a year ago were with much less elitism than they are now.
Perhaps in our search for perfection, we've become too perfect?
If you didn't jump on in 06 and beyond, there is very little left to actually TAS and hope to get published.
I know that i'm considered to be ....something here. I'm not sure what. But, because of the opinion of me, I think that it might get shot down just because i'm me.
Because of this, I think it doesn't matter how fast, it also matters who made the TAS.
Let the discussion commence on the fixing of this.
On the actual topic front:
I am slowing trying to put together Wario Land 3, which I think is one of the last really large games non-tased. (Its mine!)
...My 2 cents.
Renting this space for rent.
Trying to fix image on this site. Please cut slack.
As of April 6th, 2012:
After a long absence, here we go again?
OoT is a good example: Popular game, no published TAS exists utilizing all the new tricks, so 2 new inexperienced people submit runs. Both get ripped to shreads by the level of perfection required for a run on this site. As far as I know, those 2 haven't returned to this site.
Who can blame them? And who can blame others for not trying?
Actually, the others (i.e. me and AKA at the time) WERE working on it, but were experiencing major manipulation problems in the field. We were also waiting for Mupenplus to be ready so that we could use resets in the run. We made it clear in the topic that we were working on it. That shouldn't stop others from trying, but not only is it rude to do and submit a run when one is actively being worked on, but some people actually wanted those runs published just because they were faster than Guano's run, despite the time saved coming purely from new routes, as they were MUCH worse in terms of optimisation.
OoT is a good example: Popular game, no published TAS exists utilizing all the new tricks, so 2 new inexperienced people submit runs. Both get ripped to shreads by the level of perfection required for a run on this site. As far as I know, those 2 haven't returned to this site.
Who can blame them? And who can blame others for not trying?
Actually, the others (i.e. me and AKA at the time) WERE working on it, but were experiencing major manipulation problems in the field. We were also waiting for Mupenplus to be ready so that we could use resets in the run. We made it clear in the topic that we were working on it. That shouldn't stop others from trying, but not only is it rude to do and submit a run when one is actively being worked on, but some people actually wanted those runs published just because they were faster than Guano's run, despite the time saved coming purely from new routes, as they were MUCH worse in terms of optimisation.
Oh boo fucking hoo. If yours is better, then FINISH IT AND BLOW IT OUT OF THE WATER INSTEAD OF WHINING.
God, the whole "I'm working on RUN X, don't you goddamn DARE work on RUN X while I am or ELSE" mentality has RUINED so much.
Totally unrelated note: The first thing that comes to mind for "the big PUSH" involves the toilet :(
OoT is a good example: Popular game, no published TAS exists utilizing all the new tricks, so 2 new inexperienced people submit runs. Both get ripped to shreads by the level of perfection required for a run on this site. As far as I know, those 2 haven't returned to this site.
Who can blame them? And who can blame others for not trying?
Actually, the others (i.e. me and AKA at the time) WERE working on it, but were experiencing major manipulation problems in the field. We were also waiting for Mupenplus to be ready so that we could use resets in the run. We made it clear in the topic that we were working on it. That shouldn't stop others from trying, but not only is it rude to do and submit a run when one is actively being worked on, but some people actually wanted those runs published just because they were faster than Guano's run, despite the time saved coming purely from new routes, as they were MUCH worse in terms of optimisation.
Ironic, seeing as you introduced me to the word butthurt.
Sage advice from a friend of Jim: So put your tinfoil hat back in the closet, open your eyes to the truth, and realize that the government is in fact causing austismal cancer with it's 9/11 fluoride vaccinations of your water supply.
Stop being a bunch of dickholes. This topic is for discussing how to get new people involved with TASing. This topic is not for pissing into the wind and hoping some of it lands on <person you hate>. This topic is not for using some stupid BBCode markup. This topic is not for not using some stupid BBCode markup.
[Moderator comment: Removed some of the said off-topic, bbcode abusing posts.]
I don't really think a lower-tier TAS competition group for newbies would be very helpful, because then it's just like a 'halfway' publish or something. Seriously, why would I care that you made this cool video of xyz game when that other guy over there has the same game done a whole lot better? RE: Playarounds. What? Don't do the whole game then, please. Just show me the parts where you play around. Basically, show me a glitch video. Don't show me everything else.
I think a lot of you think the majority of the runs are way more optimized than they actually are. I have no evidence or examples, but I would guess that many games with only one or two times submitted could probably be improved by a new person. Just use the already published movie as a guide to make sure you are at least as fast on all parts, and then see if you can find anything faster. Frame advance and savestates are all you need, finding memory addresses can help.
Rridgway, I think you're a dummy. Here are some reasons. You are friends with Chamale (or at least were when you showed up), and Chamale is a dummy. Things you say like found [url=http://tasvideos.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=5270&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=40[/url]here[/url] and [url=http://tasvideos.org/forum/viewtopic.php?p=124263&highlight=#124263[/url]this entire topic[/url] make me think you are a stupid person. There are also other things you have said that make me think you are stupid if you would like me to go find them. Your name starts with two r's, and looks like a typo of Ridgeway (whatever that is, if anything), and somehow ended up getting associated with Rrrrridge Raceerrr~~~!!! which is dumb, and makes you dumb by association. Also, and this is REALLY REALLY important (REALLY), you are Canadian. That's like, -500 points right there. I can't say why other people think you are ...something, but that's some of the reasons that come to mind for me. And yes, because I think little of you, I will think little of your runs by association. This is unfortunate, but I don't really see an easy solution.
I think a lot of you think the majority of the runs are way more optimized than they actually are. I have no evidence or examples, but I would guess that many games with only one or two times submitted could probably be improved by a new person. Just use the already published movie as a guide to make sure you are at least as fast on all parts, and then see if you can find anything faster. Frame advance and savestates are all you need, finding memory addresses can help.
Most of the main games (Mario, Metroid, Zelda, Megaman) are already extremely optimized. Unsurprisingly, what are the most popular games? Those. Sure, the less well-known games would probably be easier to do, but... why are they not so well known? Right, because nobody cares.
Sure, nobody but Alden cares about Backwater Game #7, but as I understood it, the main complaint was that it's too hard for a new person to make a publishable TAS. And I was saying no it's not, they're just choosing the wrong game. After they have done a few less optimized games, they will be able to better understand why they are 20 frames behind this superoptimized one, and fix it.
Joined: 2/13/2007
Posts: 448
Location: Calgary, Alberta
jimsfriend wrote:
Rridgway, I think you're a dummy. Here are some reasons. You are friends with Chamale (or at least were when you showed up), and Chamale is a dummy. Things you say like found [url=http://tasvideos.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=5270&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=40[/url]here[/url] and [url=http://tasvideos.org/forum/viewtopic.php?p=124263&highlight=#124263[/url]this entire topic[/url] make me think you are a stupid person. There are also other things you have said that make me think you are stupid if you would like me to go find them. Your name starts with two r's, and looks like a typo of Ridgeway (whatever that is, if anything), and somehow ended up getting associated with Rrrrridge Raceerrr~~~!!! which is dumb, and makes you dumb by association. Also, and this is REALLY REALLY important (REALLY), you are Canadian. That's like, -500 points right there. I can't say why other people think you are ...something, but that's some of the reasons that come to mind for me. And yes, because I think little of you, I will think little of your runs by association. This is unfortunate, but I don't really see an easy solution.
Allow me to address this.
My last name is ridgway, and my first name starts with a R. Get the connection?
I was 11 when I wrote those. I'm 15 now. Major difference in maturity levels.
Chamale is a friend, but I shouldn't be looked down upon because of who I know.
Who started that Riiiidge Racer thing anyway?
Well, we'll see about that. I just need to submit a good run. A really good run. Would that work?
Renting this space for rent.
Trying to fix image on this site. Please cut slack.
As of April 6th, 2012:
After a long absence, here we go again?
So this thread is about getting people to TAS?
Well I think, either you are interested in TASing and want it to be your hobby or not.
A friend of mine was TASing for a short while (some game I can't remember the name of and Yoshi's tupsy turvy) but only to figure out how it is like.
He says it's not really his cup of tea, but he has still fun watching TAS videos...
Someone else asked me to teach him about TASing as well, recently.
But he lost interest quickly, as he couldn't handle the need for patience which you need when you are TASing.
Joined: 11/18/2006
Posts: 2426
Location: Back where I belong
alden wrote:
I would posit that generally there is an inverse relationship between post count and number of movies published.
Wait, that would mean that as a persons post count goes up, the number of movies published goes down. Perhaps you meant a direct relationship between posts and movies published?
Sure, nobody but Alden cares about Backwater Game #7, but as I understood it, the main complaint was that it's too hard for a new person to make a publishable TAS. And I was saying no it's not, they're just choosing the wrong game. After they have done a few less optimized games, they will be able to better understand why they are 20 frames behind this superoptimized one, and fix it.
Nobody likes doing a lot of work without actually getting any benefit out of it. And if they try to submit anything here, the audience will tear them apart (as per earlier posts in this thread). Your solution doesn't work.
Also, good to see you confirming the hate for unknown games.
I would posit that generally there is an inverse relationship between post count and number of movies published.
Wait, that would mean that as a persons post count goes up, the number of movies published goes down. Perhaps you meant a direct relationship between posts and movies published?
Nope, I mean there are many people with high post counts and low movie counts, and a few with high movie counts and low post counts. I give myself as an example, and you mmbossman as an exception. Look at the other posters in this thread for more examples.
Joined: 11/30/2008
Posts: 650
Location: a little city in the middle of nowhere
Problems and solutions
Rick wrote:
This forum is enough motivation for some...
Xkeeper wrote:
You have basically strived for a level of perfection so high that only the people who got that far in the first place can achieve it.
>Bisquit wrote:
That is naturally true for already competed games.
Still, for new games, I wish to keep the bar lower. Unfortunately there aren't that many new games anymore...
LagDotCom wrote:
More playarounds!
Moozooh wrote:
1. (newcomers) resign their ambitions as soon as they witness the level of optimization involved. Exceptions are rare.
Solution: none.
2. Obscure games are obscure. Many of them aren't even accepted on the ground of extreme obscurity that may not appeal to everyone.
Solution: broaden the range of material allowed on the site.
3. In a sense that it's the audience that raises the standards too high, not the admins.
Solution: for the audience to be more moderate with their judgements, as well as their expressions.
4. More Playarounds! (never actually said this)
SXL wrote:
this site ought to have a "beginner's" section...
It would help if the tools were less crude
DarkKobald wrote:
More newbies may come after PSX tasing is more real and stable.
Xkeeper wrote:
God, the whole "I'm working on RUN X, don't you goddamn DARE work on RUN X while I am or ELSE" mentality has RUINED so much.
Jimsfriend wrote:
[verbose]Chopper wrote:
Harden the fuck up[/verbose]
I hate ridgeway because he was once an immature kid
Joke (just nothing helpful there)
alden wrote:
Those who can't do, teach (I would posit that generally there is an inverse relationship between post count and number of movies published.)
I've seen probably dozens of threads in which someone new says "Hey, I'm looking into TASing <game nobody's ever heard of>!" And the response is invariably one of "Well, that game looks like crap; you're welcome to give it a shot but I don't think it'll be published" or "Someone submitted a run for that game five years ago and it got rejected."
In other words, the vast majority of games that newcomers consider TASing end up being bad game choices using our current definitions (and I think they're pretty good definitions for the most part). Which, to me, says that we have very few good games left to TAS; everything worthwhile's been gone over in minute detail already by a TASing veteran. Oh sure, there's obscure but worthwhile games, but they're obscure, i.e. nobody's heard of them to know that they're worth TASing.
I don't know what the solution to this problem is. But it does exist.
Pyrel - an open-source rewrite of the Angband roguelike game in Python.
I've seen probably dozens of threads in which someone new says "Hey, I'm looking into TASing <game nobody's ever heard of>!" And the response is invariably one of "Well, that game looks like crap; you're welcome to give it a shot but I don't think it'll be published" or "Someone submitted a run for that game five years ago and it got rejected."
I don't think we should be rejecting these people. Oftentimes there is still an audience for these kinds of games...
Eh. The game pool is already extremely limited. I don't see why we can't relax the "bad game" rule a bit.
First off, let me mention that my personal choice of saying "tass" like "ass" with a T at the start comes from a local company called TAS electronics, which pronounces their name likewise in advertisements on TV, and has done so for years.
Now, for the meat. I completely understand how TASing is done. I know my way around an emulator, have experience with programming, and have used hex editing to varying degrees to analyze computer games, make trainers, or just give my gf infinite money when she's playing the Sims. I am totally capable of making a TAS, and I love watching them. TASing has me aspiring to attempt practically impossible things like 1 star SM64 on console. I come from the SDA community but appreciate both types of runs as seperate and different works.
But I just don't see the point of even trying. It seems impossible to just sit down and decide that with a relatively small amount of trial and error (100 -500 rerecords per second of finished product) I can find the absolute optimal route through a game. This especially sucks with 3d games. The other thing is that, particularly with games that have been worked on before or have existing movies, finding the fastest route or a clever improvement requires incredibly out-there and counterintuitive methods. I could look at the speed variable in SMW2:YI all day long and probably never figure out the proper left right presses to accelerate optimally... they would just never occur to me... why press left to go right? that sort of thing. Wario Land 1 is a game I've loved since I was a kid and greenalink is rapidly and incredibly both discovering glitches and pulling off tricks I would have never guessed in a year of work to attempt.
That and the type of standards + criteria for acceptance here makes the prospect of creating a TAS one of those "fuck it" kind of things. I'm more qualified than the average visitor to create a monster TAS and I have yet to read an encouraging argument, useful bit of tutorial, simple explaination of the basic process (as though I was about to sit down and start grinding it out, not just an overview), helpful encouragement and suggestions for a beginner... this place is not noob friendly. You can look on youtube for simple videos about how to get a sideways stair blj going in SM64 but at the end he doesn't go back and give pointers for how it could have been optimized to start in fewer frames. I know how to hex edit but I would imagine I'd still have to learn both the interface of the emu's particular editor, and what I'm looking for and how to find it in a console's RAM instead of a windows process.
Some might argue that the best way to learn would be to attempt to replicate a simple TAS of a solved game (throwing in a game/math theory term here... I think we should use it, even if it's improper, for a game that's generally agreed to have a 100% optimal TAS using all current known methods, strats, and glitches... and it remains in that community-limited solved state until a significant new method is found). I don't want to reinvent the wheel, though. I can watch a movie with the inputs on screen (I actually prefer this) and understand almost exactly what the author's doing and why he's doing it, but that doesn't bring me a single step closer to feeling I could begin my own... it only reaffirms my conviction that it would be a waste of my time to just copy his movie and see if i can arrive at the same efficiency on my own.
If I can get an answer or even just a little followup to all that, well, that's the tip of the 'iceberg', but it'd be a wonderful start.
