Post subject: Definition of a "tool"?
Joined: 8/16/2008
Posts: 23
Do TASs have to be played on an emulator? What about cheat devices for consoles, that allow the player much more control? Take, say, this video. It's on a Gamecube, but used with an Action Replay, thus letting him move so fast and without error. The only problem I see with runs would be this rule, but... I dunno. I think the end result overshadows the possibility of editing. Aren't we cheating in the first place?
Senior Moderator
Joined: 8/4/2005
Posts: 5777
Location: Away
Every external device, substance, or whatever else like that, that enhances or otherwise modifies the gameplay experience beyond what is originally possible or intended, giving player new or advanced abilities, can be counted as a tool. There is grey area involved, though. Hence why both TASVideos (the "tool" side of the spectrum) and SDA (the opposite side) have rules governing it.
Warp wrote:
Edit: I think I understand now: It's my avatar, isn't it? It makes me look angry.
Joined: 2/26/2007
Posts: 1365
Location: Minnesota
I agree with moozooh. Yes, we are rerecording, but we are playing the original, unedited game. There is no invincibility, no editing of hit boxes (making them unable to be hit, for example), nothing that changes the physical game's state. All we do is slow the game waaaay down, and may include some tools that show (but not edit) hit boxes. The reason we require the movie files is to make sure the movie is played legit. When playing with a gamegenie, your movie will not synch unless the codes are enabled on everyone's emulator. Since the ROM does not save codes, let alone keep them enabled, the movie will desynch and we will have a 'cheater' so to speak.
adelikat wrote:
I very much agree with this post.
Bobmario511 wrote:
Forget party hats, Christmas tree hats all the way man.
Editor, Expert player (2330)
Joined: 5/15/2007
Posts: 3933
Location: Germany
but we are playing the original, unedited game. There is no invincibility, no editing of hit boxes (making them unable to be hit, for example)
The Adventure TAS is not cheated that way. It just cannot be verified. That's the main difference between the Adventure TAS and regular TASes.
Joined: 4/25/2004
Posts: 615
Location: The Netherlands
Tools, in this context, refer to any tools that do not change the internal game state. So any visualisation or speed enhancement is ok. Actual cheats like godmode or frozen timer are not permitted. The reason, I think, is partially because there would be no end of movietypes but mostly because the challenge is to finish a game as fast as possible while keeping in mind that it could technically have been done on a real console. Even though that's usually rather improbable, eh Andrew? ;) The reason for condoned consoles, as stated above, is to verifiy that a player indeed only used tools that did not affect the game whatsoever (and also to have an exact framecount, which is rather difficult to do on youtube).
qfox.nl
Active player (328)
Joined: 2/23/2005
Posts: 786
Note that cheats which modify the actual game can sometimes be considered tools as well, as they can give the TASer more information about the game. For example, someone TASing Zelda 2 could poke around in the RAM to give themselves the Candle and the Cross, even though they did not pick up such items in the game. As a result, they could play through the game with increased visibility, and when playing back the movie, they'd perform the same moves but without visibility. Any cheats which help the player but would not cause a desynch to the movie can be considered tools. Also, codes like super-jumping and flying could give you more information about clipping and level boundaries in areas you couldn't otherwise get to. If you can find a weird hole in the wall you can walk through, you could then manipulate the environment to try to take the shortcut in the TAS or speedrun. That, and I know that some speedrunners like to use cheats such as flying to practice difficult jumps.
Senior Moderator
Joined: 8/4/2005
Posts: 5777
Location: Away
The tools are defined by purpose, actually. For instance, it's nothing to do with desynching, if the goal wasn't to record an input movie in the first place. We use tools that aid in speedrunning and other such things. Cheat codes can as well be tools for beating the game. We don't use them because of legitimacy concerns, and not because they aren't tools.
Warp wrote:
Edit: I think I understand now: It's my avatar, isn't it? It makes me look angry.
Banned User
Joined: 3/10/2004
Posts: 7698
Location: Finland
qFox wrote:
The reason for condoned consoles, as stated above, is to verifiy that a player indeed only used tools that did not affect the game whatsoever (and also to have an exact framecount, which is rather difficult to do on youtube).
It's rather ironic that in the regular speedrunning community it's a rule that the speedrun must be made in a real console because if it was made in an emulator there's no way to verify if cheating was done, while in the TAS community it's the exact opposite: TASes must be made with an emulator rather than with a console because it's the only way to make sure that no cheating was done.
Banned User
Joined: 12/23/2004
Posts: 1850
Tool is whatever you want it to be. It could be defined as a controller with turbo features, for example. Pretty much anything outside of "unmodified console, game, controller" would be considered tools. In the context of tasvideos, "Tool" refers to certain ones that only allow time control of games (slowdown, freeze, replay, etc). Other tools are banned. In short, no, other tools cannot be used as per the rules. Though you're more than welcome to make them elsewhere, just not as a TAS for this site.
Perma-banned
Emulator Coder, Site Developer, Former player
Joined: 11/6/2004
Posts: 833
Around here, a 'tool' is anything beyond the experience of playing on a real console with original hardware and no cheat devices. The emulator by itself is not a tool. The emulator with slowdown and/or savestates is a tool. Memory watch is a tool. Lua is my tool. GDB is a tool. Game disassembly is a tool. And so on and so forth. The only rule is that the resulting movie must play back correctly using no tools other than the gamepad reading from the movie rather than your keyboard.
Experienced player (828)
Joined: 11/18/2006
Posts: 2426
Location: Back where I belong
Warp wrote:
It's rather ironic that in the regular speedrunning community it's a rule that the speedrun must be made in a real console because if it was made in an emulator there's no way to verify if cheating was done, while in the TAS community it's the exact opposite: TASes must be made with an emulator rather than with a console because it's the only way to make sure that no cheating was done.
Heh, I never really thought of it like that... interesting idea Warp.
Living Well Is The Best Revenge My Personal Page
arflech
He/Him
Joined: 5/3/2008
Posts: 1120
I'm surprised that the OP found his way to the forums and had enough interest to sign up before making it to these four pages: http://tasvideos.org/About.html http://tasvideos.org/FAQ.html http://tasvideos.org/WhyAndHow.html http://tasvideos.org/Rules.html That last one is most germane to this thread.
i imgur com/QiCaaH8 png
Editor, Expert player (2073)
Joined: 6/15/2005
Posts: 3282
arflech wrote:
I'm surprised that the OP found his way to the forums and had enough interest to sign up before making it to these four pages: http://tasvideos.org/About.html http://tasvideos.org/FAQ.html http://tasvideos.org/WhyAndHow.html http://tasvideos.org/Rules.html That last one is most germane to this thread.
Look at the first post again. There is even a link to rules. The OP was debating about which devices would be considered tools, in the most general case, such as the Gamecube's Action Replay, macro/turbo controllers, electronic controller mods, and even mechanical devices. Any run made with a tool is then considered tool-assisted. How I read it, the OP was never trying to discredit (emulator) TASes. Maybe you saw the last question. It's beyond the point anyway. The level of TASing today, by its very nature, requires a stable medium, something that is (and will be) only satisfied by stable emulators, and something we accept without question.
Joined: 4/25/2004
Posts: 615
Location: The Netherlands
I think the challenge is gone when anyone is allowed to use cheats. There'd be no limit to it. It might produce some amusing video's, but the point (especially the object of the game) would be completely gone.
qfox.nl
Player (68)
Joined: 3/11/2004
Posts: 1058
Location: Reykjaví­k, Ísland
If cheats were allowed, we would take then to their logical conclusion and instantly win all games in zero frames.
Joined: 7/2/2007
Posts: 3960
There's nothing wrong with making an unverifiable video. You just can't a) expect it to get published on this site, or b) expect that anyone will believe that it's legitemate. I mean, Bisqwit made that Chrono Cross TAS as just a straight-up AVI. He could have cheated and we'd have no way of knowing. But it still made for an entertaining video (for some people anyway; I don't have the fortitude to watch a movie that long), and isn't that all that really matters in the end?
Pyrel - an open-source rewrite of the Angband roguelike game in Python.
Banned User
Joined: 12/23/2004
Posts: 1850
qFox wrote:
I think the challenge is gone when anyone is allowed to use cheats. There'd be no limit to it. It might produce some amusing video's, but the point (especially the object of the game) would be completely gone.
Not always. Sometimes cheats can make things more memoriable. For example, I would find it interesting to see one of the more difficult F-Zero courses handled when your vehicle is permanently stuck at the highest speed possible. That'd be some speed. It's all about balance. Using cheats to beat the game in 1 frame isn't entertaining. Using them to create exciting and otherwise impossible situations is fun.
Perma-banned