Having the powers of flight and spindashing, Tails blasts through Sonic 1, leaving Sonic and even the mighty Knuckles eating dust in almost all levels of the game. This movie was made with Pu7o's Tails in Sonic 1 hack, version 2.1.1. [Moderator Edit: Do not link to websites that host copyright protected materials (e.g. game ROMs)]

Game objectives

  • Emulator used: Gens 9Z
  • Aims for fastest time
  • Takes no damage
  • Abuses programming errors
  • Ignores delays caused by bonus effects

Comments

This impressive hack by Pu7o places Tails into Sonic the Hedgehog 1. Being a marked improvement (and complete rewrite) over the earlier version by drx, it underwent two revisions during the making of this movie to make Tails' flight and swimming work exactly like they do in Sonic 3 and Sonic 3 & Knuckles.
This was based on the Sonic and the Knuckles runs of Sonic 1. But differences between Tails and Sonic (spindash, flight and even hitbox size) and between Tails and Knuckles (flight vs. glide/climb) made some routes impossible while enabling others. Overall, the two-tailed game wrecker blasts through the game leaving everyone else far behind.
The biggest time saver was the abuse of the Sonic 3 enforced screen boundary for Tails' flight: whenever you start flight (or boost) at or above the top of the stage, vertical speed is set to zero, preventing horizontal speed loss due to drag. Thus, you can maintain a given altitude and horizontal speed for as long as Tails' can fly. The use of this technique is marked below.

Timetable

LevelTime
Green Hill 10:16:34
Green Hill 20:15:15
Green Hill 30:28:25
Marble 10:13:23
Marble 20:14:19
Marble 30:27:08
Spring Yard 10:18:41
Spring Yard 20:15:38
Spring Yard 30:38:49
Labyrinth 10:24:39
Labyrinth 20:24:08
Labyrinth 30:27:08
Star Light 10:17:19
Star Light 20:10:11
Star Light 30:29:27
Scrap Brain 10:21:22
Scrap Brain 20:19:13
Scrap Brain 30:08:45
Final1:12:58
Total7:23:22
The table shows the in-game timer values. The value after the final colon indicates the in-game frame counter, and is restricted to the [0-59] range. It is updated every frame (except during lag frames), and increments the in-game second when resetting to zero.

Stage by stage comments

Green Hill Zone 1

The flight and subsequent braking at around 0:09 avoid losing some time to jumping, and manipulate the position enough to make the most of the triple-jump boost at the loop and allow a bugged vertical speed drop after the tube which saves me some 4 frames of drag around 0:13:56. That flight is above spindash speed, and that speed is kept until the end.

Green Hill Zone 2

Alas, the ease with which Tails could enter the wall even for casual players at the start of this stage means Pu7o added some extra walls to prevent it. Thus, Tails has to go through by sheer speed. This is one of 3 levels in which Knuckles is faster than Tails, and the only level in which Sonic is faster than Tails.

Green Hill Zone 3

Same route as Knuckles. Some bits of flight here and there make Tails slightly faster.

Marble Zone 1

Same basic route as Knuckles, as using the cave zip from the Sonic run is slower. Using flight at 0:04:48 allows me to reach the slope at 0:06:44 with tremendous horizontal speed, resulting in a very high vertical speed. Pixel/subpixel manipulation allows me to hit the slope at 0:12:28 in very favorable conditions for that last jump.

Marble Zone 2

Same basic route as Knuckles, as the Sonic route is much, much slower. Abusing slope, Tails can fly to the top of the walls with minimal speed loss and without having to bounce on the bees. Letting go of the spindash even a frame before 0:07:35 hits the wall and stops; immediately after, subpixel manipulation allows me to hit the ground at an optimal slope change to fly up the wall.

Marble Zone 3

Same basic route as Knuckles, as using the cave zip from the Sonic run is slower. Delaying flight at the start results in a very large speed gain. I have to jump/brake at the top of the wall for the second spindash to avoid losing time. Some braking after the ground is done allows me to abuse slope when I hit the ground below and set up another optimal slope change at the final slope before the boss. The boss is killed perfectly: Robotnik can't be defeated even a frame earlier.

Spring Yard Zone 1

Starts more or less the same way as Knuckles, but uses the Sonic trick when getting the speed shoes (Knuckles can stop with glide there). I avoid rolling down the slope at around 0:07:00 to retain control when I jump 12 frames later; this allows me to lose less speed due to drag because of the enforced screen boundary abuse.

Spring Yard Zone 2

With some (massive) improvements courtesy of Upthorn, this level abuses the enforced screen boundaries only slightly: at the beginning, to keep most of the speed up until that big slope which I roll down. Slope jumping and abuse of changing slope lead to insane speeds for the rest of the level.

Spring Yard Zone 3

Sadly, Tails can't fly above the wall because of the enforced screen boundaries. It is also impossible to reach those moving sprites at 0:05:xx fast enough to not have to wait. Tails isn't fazed, and abuses the enforced screen boundaries to end the level very quickly. Even taking the speed shoes as Knuckles and Sonic do isn't enough to compete with Tails here. Flight saves the day further by allowing Tails to defeat the boss ultra fast. This level has some improvements by Upthorn, and is the only level other than the Final Zone to take more than 30 seconds.

Labyrinth Zone 1

Not much to say. Knuckles can use glide to great effect in this stage, saving about 1.5 seconds over Tails due to not having to wait as long to reach the ground after the several jumps.

Labyrinth Zone 2

A better start, and the shortcut from the Sonic run allow Tails to do this level faster than Sonic or Knuckles. This level has some improvements by Upthorn.

Labyrinth Zone 3

Swimming allows Tails to reproduce the shortcut used by Knuckles. It also allows Tails to enter the shortcut more efficiently, and to improve it markedly by not having to wait for the screen to catch up.

Star Light Zone 1

Flight allows me to touch the bridge a few frames earlier. Subpixel manipulation at the wall at 0:03:24 to 0:03:47 allow me to gain great speed by jumping at 0:06:54 and slope jumping afterward and still clip the edge at 0:07:36, allowing me to reach the ledge without using flight or the spring. Slope jumping and flight give me a high speed at the end.

Star Light Zone 2

Spindash and slope jumping give me some insane speeds to work with. Add in the enforced screen boundary abuse to keep most of the speed. The result: I have to do some braking at the end of the level so that the screen can catch up enough that I hit the end sign.

Star Light Zone 3

Slope jumping, enforced screen boundary abuse and subpixel manipulation (about 0:12:00 to 0:12:20) afford some insane speeds. Flight then allows me to slaughter Robotnik.

Scrap Brain Zone 1

Following the Knuckles route, as the Sonic route ends up being slower. Flight makes this route much more effective.

Scrap Brain Zone 2

Running through the fire at the beginning allow me to hit the gear in a way that I can gain absurd vertical speed in that jump. I use the Sonic shortcut, but improve it with judicious spindashing. At around 0:11:xx, I could brake faster or release the spindash earlier; but I would just bump into the saw and lose a lot more time than I do waiting a little bit. I then abuse the changing slopes and fly until the end. Stage transition is very optimized too.

Scrap Brain Zone 3

Using spindash and flight to improve on the shortcut from the Sonic run gives an insanely short time for this stage.

Final Zone

This is a single frame slower than the Knuckles version of the stage. I can't figure out where this frame is coming...

Other comments

I wish to send a big thanks to Upthorn: not only for several extremely useful suggestions for improvements, but also for actually improving 3 levels and for making a special version of Gens with camera hack for this ROM.
Possible improvements: It might be possible to improve Green Hill Zone 3 by one or two frames up until the boss, and maybe by another frame in the boss fight. Labyrinth Zone 1 might also be improvable by some 2 frames. And I think that it may be possible to gain a couple frames in the boss fight of Star Light Zone 3. I have tried to make these improvements in many different ways, but always ended up failing, though.
Suggested screenshot:

NesVideoAgent: Hi! I am a robot. I took a few screenshots of this movie and placed them here. I'm not sure I got the right ROM though. (I tried Sonic Spinball (U) [p1].gen, which was the closest match to what you wrote.) Well, here goes! Feel free to clean up the list.

mmbossman: I am rejecting this submission because it is extremely similar to the Knuckles hack of Sonic 1 that is already published, with a detailed breakdown here. Although this run is both well done and entertaining, it is lacking in unique content, due to the fact that spin-dashing is identical, and flying is only minimally different than gliding. Best of luck on your next project, marzojr, you have some good TASing skills, so please take this decision as constructive criticism.

mmbossman: This submission has been given another chance at publication. If you feel it should be published, instead of returning to the grue, please post WHY in the thread. Similarly, if you do NOT think this movie should be published, post WHY.

mmbossman: People really like this run, so I'm reverting my previous decision. Accepting as a new run, to be placed in 'Concept/Demos' (at least for now).

ShinyDoofy: Will publish "soon".


adelikat
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Well, at least for me, there is quite a difference between glitching up a game, and hacking a game in order to make such glitching possible.
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I thought the hacking was part of porting Tails just the way he is in Sonic 3? (I have actually never played a Sonic game except the first one on SMS).
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Yes. Tails' flying mechanism is a perfect replica of the one used in Sonic 3. Technically a Tails TAS of Sonic 3 (& Knuckles) could take advantage of these very same techniques.
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adelikat
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ShinyDoofy wrote:
I thought the hacking was part of porting Tails just the way he is in Sonic 3? (I have actually never played a Sonic game except the first one on SMS).
Yes, and the consequence of this is the above discussion.
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K, sounded somewhat like you accused the hack(er) of adding an extra feature to encourage major game breakage. My bad. What would be if this run hadn't made such excessive use of the flying "feature"? Would this then have been rejected for not completing the game as fast as possible? Reminds me of Super Smash Brothers on N64.
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ShinyDoofy wrote:
What would be if this run hadn't made such excessive use of the flying "feature"? Would this then have been rejected for not completing the game as fast as possible?
I'd personally think that it wouldn't add much to the existing plain Sonic 1 run, to be honest. By the way, I just quickly viewed this run again, and most of the levels aren't that glitched. Let's see: GHZ1-2: looks good GHZ3: almost the same as the Sonic run MZ1-3: uses a shortcut like the Knuckles run SYZ1: glitched SYZ2: mostly glitched SYZ3: somehow glitched LZ1: good example of non-glitched usage of Tails' flying LZ2: same as the Sonic run LZ3: similar to the Knuckles run SLZ1: looks good SLZ2: somehow glitched SLZ3: looks good SBZ1-3: looks good and/or similar to the Sonic/Knuckles runs. Basically except for Spring Yard, most of this movie doesn't look glitched. And honestly I don't mind Spring Yard, too. With the old system, this would still be an easy yes vote for me. edit: yeah I know, it's not "glitched", it's "takes advantage of Tails' flying in an unconventional way". But "glitched" is shorter and goes straight to the point.
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I have been tossing around my thoughts on this submission, and I figured that the best way I could get an idea for publication appropriateness was to compare it to its (spiritual) predecessor, the knuckles hack of sonic 1. I decided to compare the two runs on an act by act basis, and came up with the following observations. *Green Hill Zone is largely identical to the knuckles hack, except for the artificial limitation that this hack implements in GH2 (the invisible wall preventing the zipping trick) *Marble Zone is also largely identical to the knuckles run, with some minor changes due to the differences between flying and gliding. *Spring Yard Zone has several parts that are different from the knuckles run, however they all involve flying over the level, and very little 'actual playing'. This, to me, is much less entertaining in a hack than in a clean game. *Labyrinth Zone has one zipping trick swapped out for another zipping trick in the second act, but otherwise the levels are nearly identical. *Star Light Zone is also practically identical, with slightly more flying over the level in act 2. More gameplay is evident in the tails version of act 3, but the knuckles version has a very short and unexpected clipping glitch. Scrap Brain Zone exhibits a nice zipping glitch in the tails version in act 2 and 3, although I *think* that the one in act 3 could be implemented in an updated knuckles run (not sure). Overall, this run provides very little new material to the site. It is certainly of high enough quality to warrant publication, but I think it's way too similar to an already published run.
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What I'd like to see is a run that follows the "normal" paths through the game instead of just flying over everything. The Knuckles run already goes over most of the levels and is fairly uninteresting as a result... but what if we could see the spindash/flight applied to the actual levels themselves instead of the tops of them? The run is well made from a technical standpoint, but in retrospect I think it would be a lot better to create a run that follows the normal level paths. Then you'd have 3 different runs: - Sonic, which is the vanilla game in fast mode - Knuckles, which is mostly flying-over-the-top but fast - Tails, which could be the standard levels in XTREEM speed Short: For once I'm not disagreeing with one of adelikat's rejections. It's well made, but it's extremely boring. :\ A normal level route would be better.
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adelikat wrote:
What if someone made a SMB3 hack that put in the SMW cape and proceeded to fly over all the levels?
You can do that in Super Mario Advance 4, heh heh...
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Bag of Magic Food wrote:
adelikat wrote:
What if someone made a SMB3 hack that put in the SMW cape and proceeded to fly over all the levels?
You can do that in Super Mario Advance 4, heh heh...
You can already do it to a certain degree with the raccoon suit(s), but the severe dip in speed after you start usually is enough to prevent people from using it. :P
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Poor Tails will never get his own run as it seems. :( Even [URL=http://tasvideos.org/1042M.html]Luigi[/URL] has his own. xD
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Luigi > Tailz pwnage imo.
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Yeah, every other sonic run is like, a totally unique and special snowflake. oh well more movies for GRUEFOOD DELIGHT om nom nom nom
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alden wrote:
Yeah, every other sonic run is like, a totally unique and special snowflake. oh well more movies for GRUEFOOD DELIGHT om nom nom nom
So your argument is that we need more of the same stuff?
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My argument is that a lot of the sonic runs look similar... I do realize that this is more similar to the Knuckles run and understand (but don't really agree with) the rationale for rejecting it. Like I said, just more movies for purveyors of gruefood.
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Question: If two movies look similar, and for that reason the newer submission gets rejected, why is it that the older one gets favored over the newer one? Isn't this a bias towards who gets to submit first? Why should that affect judgment in any way?
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If this were a normal game, I wouldn't have a very good answer for you. As this is a hack, as is the run I compared it to, I can easily say yes, the one that was submitted first holds a distinct advantage over subsequent submissions. There are an infinite number of hacks available for submission, and accepting a run of each hack would be ridiculous. So because this run is 80% like a run already published, I saw no need to add it to the collection.
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mmbossman wrote:
There are an infinite number of hacks available for submission, and accepting a run of each hack would be ridiculous.
This one preeventively received a green light from Bisqwit himself, though: http://tasvideos.org/forum/viewtopic.php?p=180816#180816.
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nineko wrote:
mmbossman wrote:
There are an infinite number of hacks available for submission, and accepting a run of each hack would be ridiculous.
This one preeventively received a green light from Bisqwit himself, though: http://tasvideos.org/forum/viewtopic.php?p=180816#180816.
Meaning that this hack met his requirements to avoid automatic rejection, not that a run using the hack would necessarily need to be accepted.
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I've been thinking about this - Not so much the reject decision, but the category basis. Since the Knuckles run is equal to the Tails run, and the Tails run is faster, should the Tails run obsolete the Knuckles run? Should the 2 hacks be in the same competitive category?
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That would probably fall under the entertainment problem.
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Xkeeper wrote:
That would probably fall under the entertainment problem.
This mirrors my decision making. There was arguably more entertainment in the knuckles run (yes, yes, I know it's subjective, but whatever), because less time was spent flying over the levels.
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This is blatant specism against flying foxes :P
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a few random points I'd like to throw out. 1) Hacks of this nature are definately a different consideration when it comes to game similarity. Because the share the SAME levels. You can argue all sonic games look alike, but come on. In this case it is further compounded by the fact that the two hacks both involve an over-powered character showing clearly that the game was not intended for their super powers. I agree with mmbossman's decision here. 2) If two hacks are similar like this, I am not opposed to the idea of the faster one having an advantage. However, the entertainment value needs to be considered, as subjective as that it. (I obviously found knuckles more entertaining, btw) 3) In the case where they might be arguably the same entertainment value and/or speed, then the one published first does get "home field advantage" just by the nature of the way things are done. If the publication > submission, publication wins If submission > publication, submission wins If no clear verdict can be made, then no decision, things stay the same = publication wins I don't think that is an intentional outcome but it is the case nonetheless.
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That's reasonable, and pretty much what I took away from mmbossman's comments as well. I guess the main difference between that attitude and my own is the idea of "too many" Yes, they're similar. But would that take anyone by surprise? I came into it assuming it would be similar. I still liked it a lot, maybe because I like Sonic 1 and I like Tails. It's not as if the Hacks section is busting at the seams with movies. And it's not like we don't have 3+ copies of runs of the same game. I don't like the GBA Castlevania movies that much because I never played the games, so I only watch the short ones usually (which I enjoy). It doesn't hurt me that there's a bunch of them though. I'm not suggesting you should publish this movie; it's too late and I'm over it. But I wanted to flesh out my dissenting opinion beyond a few sarcastic one-liners :)
I make a comic with no image files and you should read it. While there is a lower class, I am in it, and while there is a criminal element I am of it, and while there is a soul in prison, I am not free. -Eugene Debs