Editor, Emulator Coder, Expert player (2157)
Joined: 5/22/2007
Posts: 1134
Location: Glitchvania
My list (only a few of those I've watched): No doubts: * NES Excitebike * NES Gradius (When you see some boring autoscrollers, watch this instead.) * NES Megaman (zipping) * NES Megaman 2 (zipping) * NES Megaman 3+4+5+6 (I haven't watched Megaman X1+X2 yet.) * NES Nightmare on Elm Street ** 4 players * SNES Rockman & Forte (zipping) ** 100% CD * SNES Super Mario World * SNES Super Metroid ** 100% ** Whichever shorter * GEN King's Bounty (Watch this and learn how you are fooled.) * GEN Sonic 3 & Knuckles (Sonic zipping) * N64 Mario 64 ** 0 star ** 120 stars OK: * Arkanoid (awesome) ** Warpless * NES Battle of Olympus (better than LoZ2 warped in my opinion) * NES Castlevania * NES Legend of Zelda (Can't you believe, huh?) ** Either * NES Legend of Zelda 2 ** Glitched * NES Metroid ** Any% * NES Super Mario Bros 3 (Can't you believe? Simply due to those long autoscrollers.) ** Warped * SNES Biker Mice from Mars ("fastest thing next to Harley's Comet") * SNES Sparkster (with supercharges) * GBA Castlevania: whatsoever ** Glitched ones * GBA Sonic Advance 2 Love can save: * NES Marble Madness * NES Snake Rattle n Roll (human-impossible maneuver in pseudo-3D world) * NES Super Mario Bros (People hate this.) * SNES Mask, The (superspeedy but too obscure) * SNES Umihara Kawase (I don't think it's better than Rockin' Kats "Channel X" for NES.) * GBA Metroid: whatsoever (pale compared to other similar movies) * More skipped-game movies Not suited, no joke: * SNES Donkey Kong Country 3 (considerably boring while so long) Conclusion: Megaman PWNZ LOL! EDIT: Added more comments and promoted Sparkster.
<klmz> it reminds me of that people used to keep quoting adelikat's IRC statements in the old good days <adelikat> no doubt <adelikat> klmz, they still do
Joined: 8/3/2008
Posts: 157
Location: The Land Down Under
klmz wrote:
Not suited, no joke: * SNES Donkey Kong Country 3 (considerably boring while so long)
I for one completely agree with you on that Just because its popular/fun to play will not ensure that it makes for an entertaining TAS And DKC3 is a great example of that
Skilled player (1099)
Joined: 8/26/2006
Posts: 1139
Location: United Kingdom
While I agree with some of the starred movies more than others I think that all of them (including SMB) accomplish what a starred movie should do. I also think having the movies decided by Bisqwit works since the decision seems to be so strongly influenced by the community anyway. Delgating these powers formally amongst others may not be the best idea, but I think the upcoming site transition would be a good time to test some of the ideas outlined above. Anyway, I can think of many runs I really enjoy and would like to see starred, however, the two that really stand out are: Golden Axe by Trazz 007 Goldeneye by Rising Tempest I think both of these are tremendously entertaining, optimal and popular examples of what tool-assistance is all about.
Player (210)
Joined: 7/7/2006
Posts: 798
Location: US
klmz wrote:
No doubts: * NES Megaman 3+4+5+6 (I haven't watched Megaman X1+X2 yet.)
Unfortunately, people I show that video to will often sit and argue with me that it isn't played with one controller. For this reason I think it would be better to keep X1/X2 on the list and perhaps link to Megaman 3-6 in the movie description. I do think X1/X2 is a good candidate for the list because it is an interesting demonstration even 3 years after creation.
adelikat
He/Him
Emulator Coder, Site Developer, Site Owner, Expert player (3573)
Joined: 11/3/2004
Posts: 4754
Location: Tennessee
Mukki wrote:
007 Goldeneye by Rising Tempest
I 2nd the nomination for this one. This is by far one of the most impressive 3D TASes to date.
It's hard to look this good. My TAS projects
Editor, Emulator Coder, Expert player (2157)
Joined: 5/22/2007
Posts: 1134
Location: Glitchvania
Kirkq wrote:
klmz wrote:
No doubts: * NES Megaman 3+4+5+6 (I haven't watched Megaman X1+X2 yet.)
Unfortunately, people I show that video to will often sit and argue with me that it isn't played with one controller. For this reason I think it would be better to keep X1/X2 on the list and perhaps link to Megaman 3-6 in the movie description. I do think X1/X2 is a good candidate for the list because it is an interesting demonstration even 3 years after creation.
Links have been added now. :)
<klmz> it reminds me of that people used to keep quoting adelikat's IRC statements in the old good days <adelikat> no doubt <adelikat> klmz, they still do
Banned User
Joined: 3/10/2004
Posts: 7698
Location: Finland
klmz wrote:
* NES Megaman 3+4+5+6
Personally I never grew fond of that one. It's an impressive show of tool-assistence, but entertainmentwise it's way too confusing and chaotic. The X1+X2 run is much, much better in this regard (although I still think that some other game combination could perhaps be more suited for a double run).
Joined: 7/2/2007
Posts: 3960
Idly, would SMB/SMB2J work well for a dual run? Given the simplicity in controls, it becomes harder to pull the tricks that let you "desynchronize" the controls like is frequently done in the other multirun TASes (e.g. pressing L/R while going through a door, hitting down vs. left/right when paused), which would make it more obvious that the player really is controlling two games simultaneously.
Pyrel - an open-source rewrite of the Angband roguelike game in Python.
Skilled player (1410)
Joined: 5/31/2004
Posts: 1821
Kirkq wrote:
I honestly think somewhat popular material is better suited, but that's just me.
Well, there is a lot of popular material suited... but I've heard quite often someone saying they would have never watched a certain movie if it didn't have a star, and they really loved it. It might not be the purpose of a star, but it certainly provides a chance to put some extra attention on some unknown gems. Some of these TASes are very entertaining, even if you aren't familiar with the game.
Skilled player (1410)
Joined: 5/31/2004
Posts: 1821
(Hmm, just to get some debate started...) Before arguing about which runs should or shouldn't have stars, it is important to determine where the final decision lies on which runs have stars. As I see it, there are 3 options for this: 1 person, a select group of people, everyone. I think (although if you disagree, please post) there is only one person who would be suitable for the "1 person" option, and that would be Bisqwit. This is how it was decided, and I think also how it is currently decided. However, after reading this thread, it's probably not an ever lasting option, so one of the two other options is needed for the longterm probably (if I'm wrong about this, please let me know). I'll list here what I think are the pro's can cons for these options: (1) Select group: A select group discusses which TASes should have stars. They listen and actively discuss with the entire community about this matter, but the ultimate dicision lies with the members of that group. Stars that are assigned also get a motivation for why this particular run got a star (maybe this motivation should be in a column at the list of starred movies). This will probably give a pretty good list, but a problem might be people not agreeing with, or on who are the group members. I'd say there are two options for forming such a group. Either, (1a) maybe after a discussion about it at the forum, Bisqwit ultimately decides on it, or, (1b) after some discussion about it there is a poll about which nominees should be on it, going by popular vote. (2) Everyone: This won't give any problems on who gets to have a say in it obviously. And there should obviously be some debate about the stars also... but ultimately deciding it can't really come through debating, since there will always be people who disagree, and not one person (or group) can say in the end "this is gonna be it"... since then it would basically be option (1). The only way to ultimately decide is going it through polls. This does give clear, undebateble results, but it probably would give a very well balanced list (although maybe some selection method for polling can be suggested). If there are any other good options (maybe more exotic), let them know. (Also, I know that this post is very similar to moozooh's post. I suggest to also read that post... but I felt like making another post about it, since this should probably be discussed before debating about actual stars.)
Former player
Joined: 1/17/2006
Posts: 775
Location: Deign
why don't we scrap the star thing and have a TAS of the month or something? like "coolest tas of last 30 days" on front page, chosen by active judges, or chosen by whichever published run got the most positive attention etc. and then you could have an archive of best month movies or something. or something. and if you just reeeeeally must have a star "best of the best/whatever" category, then go ahead and put one person in charge of it. make sure that person cares about stars. make sure that person is level-headed. make sure what a star means is clearly defined, like "This page was determined by so-and-so to be the coolest runs on the site" or something etc. Bisqwit is a bad choice for this person because he is trying to get less involved, and probably doesn't want the responsibility (he can feel free to chime in here). If people want to argue with The Chosen One about which movies they think should have stars, TOO BAD!!!. We don't need that bologna on the forum. committee is a bad idea. everyone is a worse idea. i breathed through my nose while writing this post. happy late 25th birthday mr. buttsout!
Deign Deign Deign Deign Deign Deign Deign Deign Deign Deign Deign Deign Deign Deign Deign Deign Deign Deign Deign Deign Deign Deign Deign Deign Deign Deign aqfaq Deign Deign Deign Deign Deign Deign Deign Deign Deign Deign Deign Deign Deign Deign Deign
Experienced player (828)
Joined: 11/18/2006
Posts: 2426
Location: Back where I belong
:D jimsfriend, you're awesome. And I agree. A committee would work for about two months before complacency sets in, and the list would sit unattended after that. Just make someone in charge of stars, and give them about 25 or 30 to use, and be done with it all (I agree that Bisqwit wouldn't be a good choice, due to his desire to be less involved with the site, and his generalized preference to NES games).
Living Well Is The Best Revenge My Personal Page
Skilled player (1410)
Joined: 5/31/2004
Posts: 1821
jimsfriend wrote:
committee is a bad idea. everyone is a worse idea.
Hmm, it's too bad... but I think you are right.
jimsfriend wrote:
why don't we scrap the star thing and have a TAS of the month or something? like "coolest tas of last 30 days" on front page, chosen by active judges, or chosen by whichever published run got the most positive attention etc. and then you could have an archive of best month movies or something. or something.
That's something quite different than stars. While I think it might be a nice idea, I think stars have their own merit. I could see it being implemented alongside stars, but not replace it. I think of stars as just something fun, something that makes the site more interesting (it can also be useful) and think it's therefore nice to have them.
Banned User
Joined: 3/10/2004
Posts: 7698
Location: Finland
jimsfriend wrote:
why don't we scrap the star thing and have a TAS of the month or something?
I don't see how those would be mutually exclusive.
Former player
Joined: 6/15/2005
Posts: 1711
jimsfriend, Have you considered the possibility of having both a TAS of the month type thing and conventional stars alongside each other?
Zoey Ridin' High <Fabian_> I prett much never drunk
Post subject: still a nosebreather
Former player
Joined: 1/17/2006
Posts: 775
Location: Deign
Hey guys, I just got this great idea. Why don't we have a TAS of the month as well as stars? I think this could be really cool. boss, actually my big problem with committee is that you would have to find 10 level-headed people (my favorite is moozooh btw (no that's not a nomination for him as The Chosen One)). glhf Fabian, No I hadn't considered that. I was too busy drooling out my nose :^~~~O It's good advice though. Snot doesn't taste good btw, I guess it doesn't really taste bad either though. It's just kind of this slimy gooshy goo in your mouth like "spit or swallow?" *swirl swirl swirl*. hmmmm
Deign Deign Deign Deign Deign Deign Deign Deign Deign Deign Deign Deign Deign Deign Deign Deign Deign Deign Deign Deign Deign Deign Deign Deign Deign Deign aqfaq Deign Deign Deign Deign Deign Deign Deign Deign Deign Deign Deign Deign Deign Deign Deign
Skilled player (1410)
Joined: 5/31/2004
Posts: 1821
mmbossman wrote:
Just make someone in charge of stars, and give them about 25 or 30 to use, and be done with it all (I agree that Bisqwit wouldn't be a good choice, due to his desire to be less involved with the site, and his generalized preference to NES games).
This might indeed be the best option. (Although I don't know if I agree on a set number of stars.)
Joined: 7/2/2007
Posts: 3960
Well, it's pretty clear that there should be a maximum, to avoid dilution of what a star "means". Obviously there's no point if every movie gets starred (or, less extreme, if every good movie gets starred; then it just becomes a marker of what movies one person thinks are worth watching, and we have other better ways to do that). I don't think we need to set in stone what the maximum is, though. If whoever gets appointed is handing out too many, there's plenty of ways to deal with it.
Pyrel - an open-source rewrite of the Angband roguelike game in Python.
Skilled player (1410)
Joined: 5/31/2004
Posts: 1821
Derakon wrote:
Well, it's pretty clear that there should be a maximum, to avoid dilution of what a star "means". Obviously there's no point if every movie gets starred (or, less extreme, if every good movie gets starred; then it just becomes a marker of what movies one person thinks are worth watching, and we have other better ways to do that). I don't think we need to set in stone what the maximum is, though. If whoever gets appointed is handing out too many, there's plenty of ways to deal with it.
I think we agree here, just phrased it differently. I meant that I don't think that it should be restricted to a certain number as in "now no star can be added before another one is removed". Of course the number of stars shouldn't get too big, or the entire concept is lost.
Skilled player (1605)
Joined: 6/11/2006
Posts: 818
Location: Arboga, Sweden
Stars <3
Warp wrote:
omg lol this is so fake!!!1 the nes cant produce music like this!
Skilled player (1410)
Joined: 5/31/2004
Posts: 1821
The thread doesn't seem to be really moving anymore. Let me post a more concrete idea, lets see how it floats.
mmbossman wrote:
Just make someone in charge of stars
I wouldn't mind being in charge of them. I'm interested in the concept of stars, and care about the list. I can weigh arguments against each other, and think I'll be able to be pretty objective. This is about what I would have in mind doing: - State some general guidelines, somewhat like Bisqwit did here. These would just be some guidelines, and shouldn't be taken too strict and do not determine which movies can and can't have stars. The guidelines would be there just to have a general idea what stars/starred movies are. It might be good to have some suggestions or discussion about these guidelines. - I think it would be a good idea that each star gets a motivation why this movie has a star. This could be either here at the forum, or at a page on the site. It would be an up to date list of all stars with their motivations. Objections to the motivations/arguments for a particular star, or arguments for giving other movies stars can be discussed at the forum. (Maybe we should also list why some movies lost their stars, or why it was decided they they didn't get one.) I think this will create some transparency, and encourage discussion. - I think it's probably best to start off with the current list (maybe plus Super Metroid 100%, as I think it previously had a star), and list the arguments why these have stars. ====================================== Any thoughts on this?
Editor, Experienced player (734)
Joined: 6/13/2006
Posts: 3300
Location: Massachussetts, USA
Baxter wrote:
In his first post at this topic,
Comicalflop wrote:
Movies that can be improved shouldn't have star
I really disagree with this.
No no, I meant runs that are currently being improved shouldn't be on the list. Also, Goldeneye 007 should be on the list.... except for the fact that it has a fair share of emulation errors. Not only is the sky wrong, and other graphic problems, but the published AVI is missing music track sections for every stage. If the improvement gets made, with glide 64 napalm, and it's emulated perfectly... it should get on the list pronto.
Homepage ☣ Retired
Skilled player (1099)
Joined: 8/26/2006
Posts: 1139
Location: United Kingdom
Comicalflop wrote:
I meant runs that are currently being improved shouldn't be on the list.
I disagree with this for a few reasons: 1) If the original movie is starred the star will eventually make its way to the new run by inheritance anyway. If a run is being improved I don't personally believe that this should undermine the quality of the original as it may well still have the traits of a presentable, well-done TAS. 2) Not all projects are public, in fact I'd argue that very few of them are. Theoretically, we could find ourselves in situations in which a user simply states they are working on a starred run, backing it up with some improvements and WIPs, and this would justify removing said star. Conversely, this could be done, minus the public WIPs, and the star would be allowed to remain. I feel this is unfair as it would be impossible to apply consistently. Runs would lose or keep stars based entirely on how public an author chooses to make his project. 3) If someone announces they are working on a project, this doesn't necessarily mean they will finish it. We all know how volatile some projects can be. I'd say this is especially true of starred runs due to the high level of precision and luck manipulation involved in improving so many of these TASes. Most authors wouldn't continue a project if they couldn't match or impove these factors and sometimes such things (especially randomness and hypothetical frames) can prove too difficult / or impossible. The best example illustrating this that I can think of was when nitsuja attempted to improve Genisto's SMB3 run. He released a WIP improving his run and discussed ways he intended to further improve it later on. This WIP was ultimately discontinued. At which point should we have removed the star? When he released the WIP and confirmed further improvements? Clearly too early as the WIP was discontinued. There would have been a point where SMB3 had no star and there was no improvement being worked on, which is counter-intuitive to the entire system as the SMB3 TAS is one of the most recognisable TASes on the site. Would it have it have been better to remove it later, when it could be assumed the run would be finished? Firstly, there's a lot of ambiguity as to when this point is. Secondly, a project will always be subject to the factors and hinderances I've listed above. Thirdly, I don't think it makes sense to remove a star for a short period just to reaward it to a run that is pending submission / publication. ...but that's just my opinion. I'd be interested in your retort to these points :-)
Baxter wrote:
This is about what I would have in mind doing...
I like this idea. I said before that which movies are starred seems to be heavily influenced by the community, but I think having this as formal influence backed up with objective discussion would better achieve these goals. What you are suggesting doesn't differ greatly from the current situation as the ultimate decision would still be made by one person (and whether it is exactly the same depends on how much authority that person affords to the formal star discussions), but I have no problem with you taking that role. I think it would work well.
Mitjitsu
He/Him
Banned User
Joined: 4/24/2006
Posts: 2997
Baxter wrote:
I wouldn't mind being in charge of them?
Not that I object to it, but does this mean a 1/3 of the list will contain Mega Man games?
adelikat
He/Him
Emulator Coder, Site Developer, Site Owner, Expert player (3573)
Joined: 11/3/2004
Posts: 4754
Location: Tennessee
AKA wrote:
Baxter wrote:
I wouldn't mind being in charge of them?
Not that I object to it, but does this mean a 1/3 of the list will contain Mega Man games?
I think Baxter is capable of a bit more objectivity than that. Also, for the record, I think it would be a good idea to put Baxter in charge of stars. He seems to have a lot of enthusiasm for them (something Bisqwit never really had), and I think he could be impartial enough to take a more objective approach. Also, if we have put a limit to the number of stars, I think it should be a percentage of the total published movies, say 5%. The total publications is around 500 at the moment, so that would give us about 25 stars to work with. It also helps define the star categories. The top 5% (as decided by Baxter)
It's hard to look this good. My TAS projects