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This run aims for the fastest completion time in 1p very hard mode. I used the characther yoshi, instead of the common choice , fox. I Tas'ed two test runs before this one and i got to the conclusion that yoshi beats the game in a faster time than fox.
stage 1 : link - Not much seen here i used DJC to get him quickly to the edge and finished with FAIR. Couldn't use less DJC's and i had to manipulate link's DI in the right direction or no direction at all.
stage 2 : yoshi - painfull one, but i got an excelent run, the yoshis fell in favorable position's for the DTILTS which is the only technique that is able to 1 hit Ko them without a star finish on very hard mode.
stage 3 : Fox - re did this from the beggining about 7 times and finally managed to manipulate him to do a left roll which saved me from having to use a grab and saved a few frames. As for the DJCs, beautifull combo and got perfectly timed with the spike in the end
stage 4 : Mario bros. - Maybe the best stage in the whole run, got both the brothers in the same position allowing me to combo them exactly at the same time and saved a lot of frames.
stage 5: Pikachu - had a problem with the start. pikachu would come to the left side of the stage no matter what i did, i had to wait for him to do a dash attack so i could start the DJC. Just after the first NAIR pikachu did a roll to the right which helped a lot and saved 1 DJC, the last FAIR had to be delayed 1 frame in order for pikachu to die quicker saving another 7 frames.
stage 6: DK - Much faster than the usual fox strategy. Beating DK with 2 eggs was very quick, fast falling and delaying the last B allowed DK to die while still inside the egg and that was enough to get the time counter from 4:55 to 4:56.
stage 7 :kirby team - Another perfect stage. Killing the first kirby with a spike made the "mario kirby" come to the left platform and allowing me to manipulate the other kirbys in the same position.
stage 8 : samus - the strategy used was the one i found to be fastest but no matter what i changed in the whole run i had to waste 1 frame before starting running or else she would shoot the energy ball, having to jump early to avoid it, parrying it or anything was slower than wasting 1 frame.
stage 9 : metal mario - same as DK. metal mario dies faster because of his super weight.
stage 10 :polygon team - painfull one, manipulation all the polygons in the same position is very hard. Managed to manipulate a snorlax from a pokeball to kill 4 polygons before they could reach the floor.
final stage - Master hand went just as planned without modifications from my test runs. Just used a diferent manipulation using yoshi's second jump to hit the floor instead of falling normally, both takes the same ammount of frames.
bonus stages: the bonus stages are something that made yoshi an "unfavorable characther" but the improvements in the run make up for the time lost here.

mmbossman: In general, fighting games usually do not make good TASes when speed is the primary goal. The problem usually stems from having to use one or two strategies repeated over and over in order to achieve the fastest time. While this may impress people who are knowledgeable about the game, it tends to be monotonous for the average viewer, which I think the voting for this movie, along with the resulting discussion, has demonstrated.
Most of the fighting games with runs currently published focus on showing off, while still aiming to be moderately fast. I believe that this game also fits that mold; it is preferable to show off much of what the game has to offer while sacrificing some time for the benefit of more entertainment. While I acknowledge the fact that this will be an unpopular decision with some people, I believe that this game works better as a TAS when it focuses on entertainment. Therefore, I am rejecting this submission in favor of this submission.

adelikat: Unrejecting this submission for consideration into the Vault tier.
Nahoc: Added YT module.
Nahoc: Judging...
Nahoc: Rejecting this movie since it is clearly un-optimal by today's standards. An already faster TAS by DennisBalow using Kirby has been posted on YouTube in 2009. A new and faster submission using (most likely Kirby) would probably be accepted for the vault tier. Until then, it is meaningless to publish this as it fails to beat known records.


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Hyper Inferno wrote:
I think its ridiculous that people are citing repetitiveness as a reason to not accept this game. Many of the RPG speed runs on this site have much worse cases of repetitiveness that aren't even necessarily seen by the person watching the movie in the luck manipulation that happens behind the scenes.
RPGs often have quite obvious luck manipulation (would you expect a character to get a critical hit every time? No, hence it being unexpected and interesting to see).
Of course, in those games, you can't really sack time for entertainment and thus, they HAVE to end up repetitive, but in that case, shouldn't those runs just not be published at all (since entertainment is one of the key goals of this site)?
Usually RPG runs attempt to minimize the amount of repetition by not fighting any unnecessary battles. Applying that here would roughly equate to doing something different often as opposed to using the same tactics over and over.
If the entertaining part of those runs is supposed to be the amount of time that they're beaten in, then isn't most of the entertainment value found in just looking at the text that says "beaten in x:xx" ?
Of course not, which is why there's a submission process. You make it sound like speed is the only goal, which is wrong.
Honestly, the way Smash is structured, it really is more an action game then a fighter, and it just has a more obviously seen optimal method of beating each stage in the game. At least in the way the game is structured in the 1p mode.
It is more or less a "brawler" (like RCR) in that you have a few special moves without being a combofest like SF2 or whatever. This argument has almost no relevance. Even in a movie like that, the RCR run could still take some time out and play a game of baseball with items :)
Smash is also different from traditional fighters in the fact that you have a different stage each time, instead of a vanilla flat ground, and even different matchups from the normal 1v1s that occur.
The "it's not a fighter" argument has no relevance. Moving on.
So why is Smash not accepted on grounds of being repetitive and RPGs are OKed?
Smash is rejected because of potential. It has the potential to be immensely entertaining, with the wealth of moves, states, and various ways to KO opponents. This run uses very few and doesn't even complete the bonus stages. A run of SMB3 or SMW that just sat there and ran though the levels without doing interesting things (1up chain, cape glitching, you name it) would be rejected for being unentertaining, even if it was faster. That's the idea here; this run is boring and it could be so much better.
[block of text omitted] Similarly, if you go into this speedrun with the mindset of "oh, he's just doing the same move sequence every time" its not going to be interesting either. The problem is that Smash is seen by many as a shallow game that doesn't require much planning/manipulation. The amount of technical skill that is actually displayed in the video is incredible but is lost at the people who never really got down and dirty with the more indepth mechanics of the game.
Most people don't appreciate Megaman's subpixel either. It's just optimized because of the "fastest time" goal, really. But also consider that the audience of TASvideos -- the majority that would see this -- probably don't care. They see the same thing over and over. "Anybody could do that, he just sits in one spot and uses that move over and over." It's boring. It's uninteresting. It's repetitive in a game that has more moves than I can count, and it should not be this way. Personally, I am all for a 4-player TAS in the spirit of River City Ransom. Just 3-stock it, go nuts, have fun, whatever. Demonstrate incredible things that can't be done normally. Find new ways to break the game -- just something other than this.
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Xkeeper wrote:
So why is Smash not accepted on grounds of being repetitive and RPGs are OKed?
Smash is rejected because of potential. It has the potential to be immensely entertaining, with the wealth of moves, states, and various ways to KO opponents. This run uses very few and doesn't even complete the bonus stages. A run of SMB3 or SMW that just sat there and ran though the levels without doing interesting things (1up chain, cape glitching, you name it) would be rejected for being unentertaining, even if it was faster. That's the idea here; this run is boring and it could be so much better.
Took the words right out of my mouth. I for one would be in favor of having two published runs for this game, with neither having speed be a primary focus. The other run on the workbench does a decent job of entertainment throughout the 1p mode, but I think another game that starts from a dirty SRAM so that the unlockable characters are present would provide three very entertaining 2 on 2 matches (timed or otherwise), that could aim at showing off all the characters. So with one run showing off the story mode, and one run showing off all the characters, we wouldn't get into the re-cock-ulous problem of having 12 runs of 1p, just because "(insert character name here) doesn't have a run yet".
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Xkeeper wrote:
It is more or less a "brawler" (like RCR) in that you have a few special moves without being a combofest like SF2 or whatever... Even in a movie like that, the RCR run could still take some time out and play a game of baseball with items :)
Yeah, and RCR has two published runs, a time attack and the previously mentioned awesomely funny baseball-involving playaround. Even though "no one" likes the time attack and it probably wouldn't have been published if there hadn't been the legacy movie published back in the days before everyone started getting so picky ;) Even if this is not the one because it is "too unoptimized" there should be a time attack category for this game.
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Hyper Inferno wrote:
Honestly, the way Smash is structured, it really is more an action game then a fighter, and it just has a more obviously seen optimal method of beating each stage in the game. At least in the way the game is structured in the 1p mode.
Would someone fill me in as to how this is not a fighting game? I've never played it, and from a totally outsider perspective, it looks like a typical fighting game (you don't need to have a dedicated combo system to be called a fighting game).
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It's a fighting game. But as pointed out it offers more variety in level design, plus the strategy for quickness is more interesting (well, to me at least) -- instead of trying to do max damage you can cheap your opponent off the stage. It's clearly a fighting game though, just not in the traditional SFII sense.
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mmbossman wrote:
Would someone fill me in as to how this is not a fighting game?
this
mmbossman wrote:
it looks like a typical fighting game
Characters have a bit more move variety than a typical fighting game, and the extra high jumping adds something as well (especially adapting to other characters' jumps like yoshi's invincible double jump, and ness's loopiness, or link's complete lack of a good jump which is a cruel joke). Levels differ in more ways than a themed background what with tornadoes on link's castle, pokemon in saffron city, wind in kirby's level, pow blocks and moving platforms and blah blah. Also no such thing as a KO, only ring-outs (which means damage is only a means to an end, not the goal or even necessary, as alden touched on). Also more than just 1v1. I still think it's more a fighting game than an action game, but it's its own unique brand of it. Later iterations single-player modes are adventures. this version, no so much.
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I don't think there's going to be any clear consensus on its categorization without there first being an agreement on what defines a "fighting game." The Smash Bros. series is very different from your traditional 2D side-view fighting game (Street Fighter, etc.), so it can't be lumped in that category, but it does involve various characters beating the stuffing out of each other. Of course, there's lots of ranged attacks, items, aerial fighting plays a bigger part, field positioning is the primary goal (stay on the level, get your enemy off of it)... I guess we could call this genre Action/Fighting, but that doesn't really feel complete either. It would seem more like a typical fighting game if you had, say, a Mario vs. DK fight (more standard fare beat-'em-up characters) and more like something completely different if you were to watch two Links go at it or had items on (situations where being close to your enemy is less important). I still don't understand the fascination with Smash Bros. speedruns due to their repetitive nature (one or two combos will almost always be the fastest way to win any fight in this game). Not sure how to resolve that since it's just a matter of conflict caused by personal taste. I wouldn't see any harm in separate categories for "pure speed" and "entertainment" runs, though having one for each of the 12 characters would be a mess. Then again I bet there's a lot of people who'd watch all of those too. Tough call.
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In my opinion, the closest relative of this series is Power Stone, for Dreamcast- both have mild platforming elements, environment interaction, randomly spawning items, and a simple move/controlset not varying in input across the characters, none of which are very common in fighting games.
IST
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I voted yes. Basically, it entertained me, and Yoshi being the fastest one(So far) was a surprise, to say the least. I thought it'd be Falcon, Fox or Pikachu. I spotted a few bits here and there that I thought could have gone faster, but SSB is not really a game I'm very good at...
IST
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Hate to double post, buuuuuuuuuuuuut. So, no way a speed run only of this game will ever be accepted here? :( Edit: Forgot a few words.... Damn you medicine induced tiredness!
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This is far from the first speed-oriented run of SSB to be rejected, so yeah, I doubt you'll ever see one get published.
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If someone can make a speed-based run that doesn't repeat the same 2 or 3 moves (since that has been the main complaint with speed-based runs), it's still a possibility. However, Derakon seems to be pretty on point with his answer.
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If the poll is to be trusted, it seemed to entertain quite a lot of people. Since the technical accuracy of the run doesn't seem to be in much question, I still see no good reason to have rejected this run.
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61% seems like a frighteningly low requirement of "Yes" to warrant publishing. I'm sure it's happened before, but does that mean it should ever happen at all?
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If the poll is to be trusted, it seemed to entertain quite a lot of people. Since the technical accuracy of the run doesn't seem to be in much question, I still see no good reason to have rejected this run. Quiet, peasant! You are not a judge! Your opinion is worthless! Worthless!
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petrie911 wrote:
If the poll is to be trusted, it seemed to entertain quite a lot of people. Since the technical accuracy of the run doesn't seem to be in much question, I still see no good reason to have rejected this run.
Because it is boring. We try not to have boring runs on this site. Mostly we succeed, and rejecting this was a step in the right direction.
Warp wrote:
omg lol this is so fake!!!1 the nes cant produce music like this!
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Cardboard wrote:
petrie911 wrote:
If the poll is to be trusted, it seemed to entertain quite a lot of people. Since the technical accuracy of the run doesn't seem to be in much question, I still see no good reason to have rejected this run.
Because it is boring. We try not to have boring runs on this site. Mostly we succeed, and rejecting this was a step in the right direction.
You think its boring, but the majority thinks otherwise.
Nitrogenesis wrote:
Guys I come from the DidyKnogRacist communite, and you are all wrong, tihs is the run of the mileniun and everyone who says otherwise dosnt know any bater! I found this run vary ease to masturbate too!!!! Don't fuck with me, I know this game so that mean I'm always right!StupedfackincommunityTASVideoz!!!!!!
Arc wrote:
I enjoyed this movie in which hands firmly gripping a shaft lead to balls deep in multiple holes.
natt wrote:
I don't want to get involved in this discussion, but as a point of fact C# is literally the first goddamn thing on that fucking page you linked did you even fucking read it
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Mayor Haggar and Cody are such nice people for the community. Metro City's hospitals reached an all time new record of incoming patients due to their great efforts :P
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AngerFist wrote:
Cardboard wrote:
petrie911 wrote:
If the poll is to be trusted, it seemed to entertain quite a lot of people. Since the technical accuracy of the run doesn't seem to be in much question, I still see no good reason to have rejected this run.
Because it is boring. We try not to have boring runs on this site. Mostly we succeed, and rejecting this was a step in the right direction.
You think its boring, but the majority thinks otherwise.
So if we're going by majority vote nowadays, lets go ahead and just set up an automated system of accepting anything with over 50% yes votes. I'm sure we won't publish a whole bunch of shit that way.
Swordless Link wrote:
If the poll is to be trusted, it seemed to entertain quite a lot of people. Since the technical accuracy of the run doesn't seem to be in much question, I still see no good reason to have rejected this run. Quiet, peasant! You are not a judge! Your opinion is worthless! Worthless!
It's interesting that whenever someone doesn't get their way, immaturity sets in and they start bitching about how their opinion was never listened to. I read through this discussion thread just like everyone else, and I understand that some people find this a good movie. But I also understand that nearly 40% of the viewers were either indifferent, or thought that it was horrible in terms of entertainment. So until you become a little less egocentric and start to be able to analyze things from both sides of a situation, I guess I really don't have anything else to say.
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mmbossman wrote:
So if we're going by majority vote nowadays, lets go ahead and just set up an automated system of accepting anything with over 50% yes votes. I'm sure we won't publish a whole bunch of shit that way.
Don't put words in my mouth. I stated what the majority voted and what he thought about the run.
Nitrogenesis wrote:
Guys I come from the DidyKnogRacist communite, and you are all wrong, tihs is the run of the mileniun and everyone who says otherwise dosnt know any bater! I found this run vary ease to masturbate too!!!! Don't fuck with me, I know this game so that mean I'm always right!StupedfackincommunityTASVideoz!!!!!!
Arc wrote:
I enjoyed this movie in which hands firmly gripping a shaft lead to balls deep in multiple holes.
natt wrote:
I don't want to get involved in this discussion, but as a point of fact C# is literally the first goddamn thing on that fucking page you linked did you even fucking read it
Cooljay wrote:
Mayor Haggar and Cody are such nice people for the community. Metro City's hospitals reached an all time new record of incoming patients due to their great efforts :P
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I don't see what's the problem here. The voting results aren't as good as they might appear. It's known for some time that people give away yes votes much easier than no or meh votes. There are quite a few runs with better voting results than this that also got rejected. I do think the judges take voting results into account... it's just that the voting results for this run weren't good enough.
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AngerFist wrote:
Cardboard wrote:
petrie911 wrote:
If the poll is to be trusted, it seemed to entertain quite a lot of people. Since the technical accuracy of the run doesn't seem to be in much question, I still see no good reason to have rejected this run.
Because it is boring. We try not to have boring runs on this site. Mostly we succeed, and rejecting this was a step in the right direction.
You think its boring, but the majority thinks otherwise.
And because the majority finds it the best shit ever, I'm not allowed to state my opinion? Also I expect a handful of these posts being removed in a not too distant future. And no, 60% is not good votes at TASvideos. Also like Baxter said, no and meh-voters often have more ground for their votes than yes voters. But hey, don't mind me, I'm just a guy not agreeing with the majority, an enemy to the society etc. Y'all.
Warp wrote:
omg lol this is so fake!!!1 the nes cant produce music like this!
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Cardboard wrote:
But hey, don't mind me, I'm just a guy not agreeing with the majority, an enemy to the society etc. Y'all.
I was actually hired to kill you, due to the disagreement you have over this run's publish-worthiness. Just so you know.
adelikat wrote:
I very much agree with this post.
Bobmario511 wrote:
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Nothing personal, I can accept that then.
Warp wrote:
omg lol this is so fake!!!1 the nes cant produce music like this!
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I enjoyed this run more than the published run. The time the other run wastes by doing pointless combos is not offset by the entertainment value of these combos. Also, the minigames are not especially interesting, particularly for Yoshi.
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The published movie is slower, but for the sake of entertainment. Well, the entertainment rating doesn't particularly suggest much success in that area. So this is the fastest version of this game, so it is eligible for the vault. However, should we have this fast movie, and the "more entertaining" movie in the moon tier? Or this movie could obsolete the published movie, and be published in the vault. Or it could obsolete and be published in the moon tier! Afterall, it is a popular game with a lot of entertainment value for a number of people.
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