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Yes, the Crash Bombs will even blast Wily's ship in hard mode if you use the explosion to hit his window, but as you said, Final Fighter does have the advantage of already having Metal Blades selected due to the prior battles, so in a frame-by-frame game, the time for the weapon switch may very well take longer, plus the time it takes for Wily's ship to move to the left. In a standard playing session, the first round of the ship moves fast enough that this won't take long, and you can already have the second explosion starting just before his lifeline finishes refilling, so you blast the ship the second time before it even goes anywhere, but Final Fighter is likely already using Metal Blades so they hit the moment his ship can take more hits. As for your suggestion about using FCE on these lab computers, I'll try that in a little bit once I get some things done. About the crash bomb glitch in Level 4, this is the only time I've seen this occur, so I doubt you can use it in any other battles. Another neat thing about the level 4 battle-if you're on your last hit and have a crash bomb placed near the final gun, and you take your fatal hit just as the explosion starts, you may notice that after the gunlet disappears, one more frame of your dying animation will play out before it gets frozen. If you're on the 16th frame of the dying animation, this delay will leave you exploding while the screen flashes. Then your hear the victory fanfare and the teleportation sound, but since you're dead, the game freezes here. This is the only battle I've encountered this lag, so for whatever reason it's occuring, maybe this is why so many strange things are happening in this room. About Famtasia, I think I tried it a few months ago, and it didn't work for some reason. Of course, my computer is so screwed, losing my emulator videos and all, so who knows why that happens. Now that I think of that, I'll try to find those error screens I got from FCE and post them.
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http://www.yuko2ch.net/rockman/m2scrollup.mpg If there is lag The scroll up in a usually impossible place seems to be also possible. there is a ladder there. 1:It is not possible to scroll-up though it tries first time. 2:However, it is understood to succeed by luck in the second times. In a word, this might be also possible if there is lag and ladder. http://www.yuko2ch.net/rockman/aaa.jpg http://www.yuko2ch.net/rockman/bbb.jpg Because scroll right and the scroll up are possible, scroll under might be possible.
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Rag? Maybe you meant lag? Also, since you've likely seen my video of that, if you tried pausing during running around after that screen scroll in level 4, the background becomes glitched, loading one of the other rooms. Why does this happen? Also, you've likely made it to the end standing at the right edge of the screen, so you may have noticed that the gate acts like a wall until you've finished scrolling the screen to the right. Why does this happen? It seems like all the gates in the Wily stages act like walls. Why are they designed different that the ones in the RM stages? Oh, BTW, have you experienced any of the crashes yet doing this trick? If you do find a way to create this effect in the Wood Man stage and others, I don't know if there is a risk of crashing or not.
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kolechovski : i think FinalFighter uses some translator.. he is japanese guy :) Rag = Lag.. but translaton translates it to "Rag" i think im not sure heh :>
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Hmm, I'm not sure about scroll under. When you get too low on a screen, if there is a screen below you, it scrolls down before you can grab a ladder at the top. If there is no screen below you, you disappear and die before you can do this, so i doubt a scroll-under is possible.
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Yes, Finalfighter seems to use excite.co.jp. It erroneously converts "ラグ" into "Rag", should be "lag". also it converts "ディレイ" into "DeLay", should be "delay".
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Well, I've got more info that should help your speed run video. Since many of my old videos disappeared somehow, I wanted to point out some more tips, though you guys may already know these. First, about the water stages, it's best to stay out of the water as much as possible since water creates lag by inserting 1-frame pauses every several frames, so do whatever you can about this. In the Bubble Man stage, if you don't see the splash after exiting the ceiling, then you are considered underwater the whole time. Simply jumping off the screen will fix that. In the 3rd Wily stage, Item 2 can be used out of water to avoid the whole first part and save good time, and since you likely won't need Item 2 anywhere else, this is a good place to finish it up. Also, in the Bubble Man stage, not only can you take the famous ceiling shortcut midway through, but you can also take another, more dangerous one just shortly after that one. After you get past the second big fish to the screen where a giant frog spits three smaller ones, use Item 1 near the spikes, then jump as the frogs are jumping and take a hit just before you touch the spikes. You will be able to enter the ceiling without dying, and by quickly facing left, you'll get zipped through to the end of the water. Unfortunately, my videos of this trick were among those lost, so just look at that area yourself and try to see where I mean to do this at. I also have tips about beating the bosses and saving a few frames during teleportation. Although the frame count info was among the stuff lost, I do remember that it is beneficial to beat a boss standing at the highest platform in a room. This will save time during the teleportation animation, because he won’t have so far up to travel. Especially in Bubble Man’s room, you may want to get stuck in the upper part of his ceiling and blast him with Metal Blades, or if you’re fighting in the normal room, try to jump into the spikes just before you give him the fatal hit, assuming you can do so without wasting time doing it. You’ll get stuck on the spikes and have less of a distance between the top of the screen and you. Of course, these will only be helpful if you can implement them while still killing the bosses as fast as possible. I’ll try to remake videos showing this if you need more info. That's it for the hints so far. I think you already know to use Item 1 in level 6 to quickly get to Alien Wily, so I don't really have anything else to offer. Now for some more questions I have myself...let's start with the weird beginning on any screen after you lose a life. You may have noticed through FADV that after 9 frames of blackness, the 10th frame shows the background being reset to the last save point, though it is often off center and screwed up, and sprites of images on the screen will be scrambled during this frame before they disappear. I'm curious if anybody knows why this "junk" frame always shows up. My next question is a minor one about the dragon in level 1. Actually I've got a few. If you've ever used Time Freeze at the beginning of the scrolling and jumped to where the dragon should appear at, you'll die upon touching the small area where it teleports to. Why does this happen? Also, if you've ever frozen it while it's coming up from the pit, you may have noticed that during the freeze, it's teleportation picture always changes sideways. Why does that happen? The next question is about the beginning of Wood Man's stage. I've already seen in a video that you guys know about the tree ceiling there. Why does this ceiling exist? Now for a few videos to demonstrate some more questions I have. In the zip file I just linked to are nsm2 and nsm3 videos that show a small portion of the Wily ship battle. What I am wondering is why Mega Man gets shoved down a good bit during one frame of entering the windshield. In the nsm3 video, he even makes it through completely unharmed! In the nsmhit video, it shows mega Man zipping through the ceiling midway, then has him taking a mysterious hit when he moves. Why does this happen? I notice that during the first frame of movement, the image of one of the shrimp displays, though it isn't touching him. From the loss of life he takes though, it seems he gets hit by a phantom shrimp, even though none are in the area. It seems that they somehow came from the beginning of the scrolling near the lantern fish and stayed with you. This may also explain the mysterious hits I took during some of the videos in Quick Man's stage during that midway ceiling zipping, like it came from one of the flames those tiki torch enemies throw. how do these enemies tag along? And one final question is about why animations continue when a collision occurs during a time freeze. An example of this is the nsmscrewed video that screws up the picture of the frogs. Why does this happen? Well, I doubt you read all that, but if you guys have any thoughts on those, drop me a line. Thanks for your help. Link to the zip file: http://www.geocities.com/kolechovski/mm2/morebugs.zip.zip edit-apparently just clicking the link works this time.
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kolechovski wrote:
in the Bubble Man stage, not only can you take the famous ceiling shortcut midway through, but you can also take another, more dangerous one just shortly after that one. After you get past the second big fish to the screen where a giant frog spits three smaller ones, use Item 1 near the spikes, then jump as the frogs are jumping and take a hit just before you touch the spikes.
This, and probably many other of your tricks, are already utilized either in existing speedruns of this website or in the MPG demonstrations on Finalfighter's website. Please study the existing material to avoid rerunning old news. http://www.yuko2ch.net/rockman/rock2movie.htm (In case you already were aware of this site, it would have been nice if you actually indicated the source of your information instead of claiming it as your own findings.) (Also, I recommend that you try inserting some "air" or other formatting (such as lists) in your messages. Lengthy paragraphs of text jumping from topic to topic are very difficult to read.)
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Here are the FCE errors I kept getting: http://www.imagedump.com/index.cgi?pick=get&tp=371199 http://www.imagedump.com/index.cgi?pick=get&tp=371200 http://www.imagedump.com/index.cgi?pick=get&tp=371201 Oh, Bisqwit himself is here, cool. Hey, I still don't quite get your reply about the scanlines and its cause of the glitched appearance when shooting a fireball/taking a hit. From the fireball video I made, it showed the usual screw up, and even one of the teleportation picture appearing. edit-no, actually, I found out this stuff myself...I've been working on it for months, and have made numerous posts about it on the gamefaqs.com boards. Then somebody referred me to this site, and I found out from bisqwit that there are already other people working on these bugs. I do see though that just about all my discoveries are known from viewing the videos on that site you sent me to, as well as a few others, so I doubt that I will have any more useful input, but the stuff I mentioned I did find on my own, even though others may have found it before me.
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kolechovski wrote:
Hey, I still don't quite get [...] the scanlines and it's cause of the glitched appearance when shooting a fireball/taking a hit
The feeling is mutual. I have no idea what you're talking about...
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Yep, I see you've alerady found those. I'm not surprised, but I wanted to make sure nobody missed any of them. Sorry for the long paragraphs...I'm not used to posting such large posts, so I need a little more experience spacing them out. edit-I see finalfighter has been using that Crash Man screen wrap bug. That's always funny to look at. edit-okay, here are the pics of that fireball bug. Unfortunately, I don't have the software to convert the format, so they're in the PCX format for now. Here is the link: http://www.geocities.com/kolechovski/mm2/fireballbug.zip
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kolechovski wrote:
http://www.geocities.com/kolechovski/mm2/fireballbug.zip
Okay, I still don't know what it is about. Never seen it before. Maybe you meant some other "you" when you said "your reply" right after "Bisqwit"... Edit: Maybe you mean the thing we discussed by e-mail. I was mentioning that when there are lots of sprites on the screen, parts of objects may disappear because of hardware limitations. This seems to be different however.
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Yeah, I knew about the sprite disappearing thing and the hardware limits that you replied in my email...that's why I posted the pictures to show you what I meant was happening. His feet didn't just disappear, they changed into weird stuff. And thanks for the png conversions, omega!
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First off, scroll-up looks like the next big technique. And now that finalfighter has spoken, I think we might stop using the misnomer "shuttertech" and call it a "scroll-right" glitch as he just did. Okay, questions galore. I'll try answering these a few at a time. - The scroll-under he's talking about isn't restricted only to ladders. There is the possibility of jumping into a pit and hoping it gets mis-detected as a down-scroller, as finalfighter mentioned in an earlier post. - Let's just say you did want to attempt it by grabbing ladders below the screen. See Shinryuu's pit trick on the Wily2 boss or crashman_pit.fcm for a couple examples of how to do that. - Two out of three of your errors mention DirectX. It's possible that Windows Update messed things up for you at one point, so try downloading and installing the latest version of DirectX. - Hmm, are you sure about the teleportation animation being time-dependent on height? If you jump into a pit after defeating the boss you'll hear the teleport sound without seeing any teleporting yet somehow make it to the got-weapon screen. - Programming a game to properly output graphics while shuffling around limited resources isn't trivial, and the task of eliminating all graphics glitches is secondary to debugging out the mechanics glitches. Sprites are painted onto a backbuffer before the visible screen and backbuffer are swapped, so you could catch a frame of really glitched graphics if the swap happens too early. This and the other issues I mentioned lead to graphics glitches being plenty more common than true mechanics glitches.
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There is new "beta WIP" im not sure about the battle but im sure it's really "near" the perfection.. i wasn't able to get it any faster now http://dehacked.2y.net/microstorage.php/info/711/
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Well, in all my trials, teleporting higher was slightly faster, frame-wise. I'll look into it more and provide numbers and examples. As for the pit thing, remember that the top and bottom are connected, so jumping in a pit after beating a boss might leave you teleporting from the top of the screen. In fact, in some of my videos, when the pit wraps occur during boss intros and exits, you'll usually see MM's feet flash at the top of the screen while falling in a pit. Anyway, I likely won't be here for the next couple days, so I'll have lots of time to check on those and get back to you about them.
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"There is the possibility of jumping into a pit and hoping it gets mis-detected as a down-scroller, as finalfighter mentioned in an earlier post. " -This likely won't work, as if the screen is even slighty off where it should scroll down, and will treat the bottom as a pit, and since this is done when the screen is likely between 2 rooms, the only chance it may work is if you get only 1 room itself to display, without even showing a portion of the next. As for jumping into a real pit, and having it scroll down to the next screen, if you can get the screen to finish scrolling to the edge, this will work. Once a screen below is detected, it doesn't matter how you reach the bottom-it always scrolls down. "Two out of three of your errors mention DirectX. It's possible that Windows Update messed things up for you at one point, so try downloading and installing the latest version of DirectX. " -Well, I've never used Windows update, as my home compy has no Internet access...probably happened from the countless crashes. and the last thing you said may explain that fireball bug, but an example of a mechanics glitch with it is falling into a pit while having it charged, then releasing your charge while in the pit to quickly end your death and restart your next life. It seems they just did overall lousy programming with the fire.
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I tested the height thing as you described, and you're right it does make a difference. I also timed the teleport sequence when a pit death is used, and surprisingly this seems to give the minimum, rather than the maximum. Combining the height advantage with death-at-boss-kill glitches on heatman, the mechadragon, and possibly bubbleman, this could save a few frames off the run. Thanks again for your contribution.
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This is improvement for my older AirmanTechnique (what i didn't publish ?). hanzou posted PM to me and there was a link.. and this is faster than it. http://dehacked.2y.net/microstorage.php/info/714/
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kolechovski wrote:
Rag? Maybe you meant lag? Also, since you've likely seen my video
Actually, not likely. Not to sound mean, but I'd like you to realize that I might be one of the only people here who has had the patience to filter through your posts for the important things, dig through your zip file for the relevant movie, and play it in Nesticle. We don't have a serious problem with Nesticle per se (Famtasia can cause worse problems on some computers), but it's the low signal-to-noise ratio in your posts that makes it hard to see the important things. If I hadn't singled out and posted crashbomb_glitch.fcm, finalfighter and Bisqwit could easily have missed it.
actually, I found out this stuff myself...I've been working on it for months... but the stuff I mentioned I did find on my own, even though others may have found it before me.
It is impressive that you managed to rediscover many of the old ideas on your own, but this is certainly much less interesting to us compared to finding and exploring new tricks. If you familiarize yourself with some of the older material, not only will you be in a better position to communicate ideas to us, you'll also come to have better Rockman knowledge to increase your potential for discovering new techniques. Btw everyone, Bisqbot managed to reproduce the scroll-up technique in crashman stage: scrollup_crashman.avi. I'm posting it as avi because I had to use a few cheat codes in order to sustain all those item drops on the screen. One problem, the animation scrolls up but the physical location scrolls down! If this is always the case, unfortunately the proposed routes by finalfighter just won't work. edit: This gives me an idea! What if the reverse is true? You could take a ladder down, have the screen scroll down, and end up at the top of the room above. I think this is likely possible... at least more likely than turning pits into scrollers. Hey Shinryuu that looks good, but last week I realized that you can probably scroll-right above the top of the screen and end up at the bottom-left corner. I mean like combining the trick used to jump in the pit at boss fights (e.g. crashman_pit.fcm). Probably the true optimal crossing would involve just jumping down and doing the scroll-right near the bottom (to maintain high downward velocity), but I think it might be hard for even Bisqbot to find a good run that accomplishes that. edit: Fixed dyslexic right/left mixup above.
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hanzou wrote:
One problem, the animation scrolls up but the physical location scrolls down! If this is always the case, unfortunately the proposed routes by finalfighter just won't work.
So now we just need to find scroll-down. And actually, upon closer inspection, you just edited your post to agree with me :P Anyway, I think the problem is that you were doing this trick at the _first_ screen of the strip. There is no way from that screen except the previous room (since the next room needs no special exit). Next time, try the _last_ screen of a strip. In the case of Crashman, that would be the room with the entrance to Crashman's tunnel (still outdoors).
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Bisqwit wrote:
Anyway, I think the problem is that you were doing this trick at the _first_ screen of the strip. There is no way from that screen except the previous room (since the next room needs no special exit). Next time, try the _last_ screen of a strip.
Bisqbot found this in Wily2 and it substantiates your explanation: scrollup_wily2.avi As before, this was done using lag-generating cheats to create a proof of concept. Although it may not actually be possible in normal gameplay to perform scroll-up at that Wily2 corner, this does indicate that finalfighter's proposed Woodman stage path is practical.
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I think that there is delay in the near the end of the crashbomb even if the object doesn't exist excluding Rockman. Though I do not understand be correct because it is only externals. Moreover,The method of using the scroll after one screen is devised like "m2scrollup" if there is no Rag.
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I totally lost track of this topic. :) Just make sure that you guys who still know what's going on figure it all out.