So, when is someone going to make a video of breaking into the back door of Tourian, triggering the explosion sequence there, and then just returning the way you came for a quicker TAS?

Yes, Yes! Wish I could vote twice. And I didn't expect you guys to break in to Tourian using an x-ray scope! Nice.

14% run (especially the in-game speed route) actually has a good amount of nice tricks not shown, and not even having a chance to be shown, in any other run. The reason it hasn't been updated yet is that working on it is less interesting and gratifying than the any% and 100%, hence why they were updated way more often.

I see. Was assuming the other people knew what they were talking about, as I haven't been into low% for quite some time. If that's the case, I'd say it shouldn't be obsoleted due to this run being radically different.

Everyone else is throwing in their opinions so why not me? I do not feel that this should obsolete the existing 14% movie on the grounds that this one breaks the game in a much more severe manner. Plus the boss fights are so entertaining to watch.

This run indeed is breaking the game. I wouldn't say the current low% run breaks the game, though; it's merely pushing things to the limit through superplay. Sure, there's the odd skip-an-obstacle thing (as the author used Ice Beam, I'm assuming this is used in the room before Botwoon), but there's no messing around with savegames or long sequences of, well, doing strange stuff inside a wall. And, as fate would have it, a low% of Super Metroid isn't awfully slow or boring. Sure, it has more categories than other games, but how many other games would allow for a low% run, let alone an interesting one? For example, consider some game with weapon powerups. You end up collecting none, and play the exact same game, other than that you're spending, say, ten times the amount of time shooting at stuff as the regular game would. In contrast, in Super Metroid, you'd have to resort to creative solutions in order to bypass certain obstacles, which aren't obstacles at all in the any% run. I think. Compare it to SMB's walkathon. How many games would make for an interesting walkathon? Still, that's no reason not to have SMB's one around, as it's entertaining. (At least, I thought it was, and surely I'm not the only one)

The problem with low% is that, once you define the category by a quantifiable factor, you bind the obsoletion chain to this factor. In which case, hypothetically, a lower collection percent will take precedence over a higher collection percent. But on the other hand, the same situation can be said about any% as a category, since this run demolishes both published any% runs in length as it does to the low% in terms of collection percentage. Which is exactly why, as I discussed it way earlier with hero, Cpadolf, adelikat and others, this type of run, codenamed NBMB, should not interfere with other categories, thereby allowing the higher overall quality of content per game stay (instead of just 100% + NBMB). The problem with that is, since Cpadolf's in-game any% has been published, it introduces a somewhat problematic precedent of a category that is not-strictly-following the site's suggested goals (realtime over in-game time), yet mirrors a "proper" one and excels at entertainment at the same time. Which made it effectively an entertainment category, not completely dissimilar to playarounds (at least for the purpose of publishing). So back when it was published, it was suggested that a NBMB run will obsolete it later (check the submission thread), and 14% will be obsoleted by another 14% run (going for in-game time, since that allows a unique route, considerably increasing its entertainment value when compared to the other categories). But with the high rating of the current in-game any%, and with all this discussion, how much of a chance does the 14% category to stay, and the in-game any% be obsoleted? This is the question.

The problem is when you have about 20 catagories for a game, is that its inevitable you'll get a gross inconsistency in technical quality between runs. Often a single discovery made during one run can suddenly make them all obselete this is partly the reason for keeping brances per game minimal.

The problem is when you have about 20 categories for a game, it's inevitable that you'll get a gross inconsistency in technical quality between runs. Often a single discovery made during one run can suddenly make them all obselete. This is partly the reason for keeping branches per game minimal.

And the problem with keeping game branches minimal is that you end up losing what people consider the more entertaining types of runs, in some circumstances. In-game any%? Rated higher than the real-time any%, so probably not the best idea. Low%? People already said they prefer that one in some cases for the boss fights. Hell, we should just make a new category for Super Metroid runs.

The problem is when you have about 20 catagories for a game, is that its inevitable you'll get a gross inconsistency in technical quality between runs. Often a single discovery made during one run can suddenly make them all obselete this is partly the reason for keeping brances per game minimal.

It might be a good choice overall, but you have to satisfy people who want more of one game if that game allows so. 70-star SM64, SMB3 full amazing run™, SMW small-only, etc., all fall under the "not enough while there could be" type of demand. As for Super Metroid per se, it's known to become obsolete already during the production of a run due to the mad pace of discovering new esoteric tricks, the players have already yielded up to that.

So back when it was published, it was suggested that a NBMB run will obsolete it later (check the submission thread), and 14% will be obsoleted by another 14% run (going for in-game time, since that allows a unique route, considerably increasing its entertainment value when compared to the other categories). But with the high rating of the current in-game any%, and with all this discussion, how much of a chance does the 14% category to stay, and the in-game any% be obsoleted? This is the question.

There's no question in that, if following this site rules, this run should obsolete them all (save the 100% run), because it surpasses the goals of the others. Heavily glitched games also allow full run, but as there are already FOUR of these (three of which are already obsoleted by this one), the obvious step would be to keep this one and the full run. The real question, thus, is how to recategorize the other runs if consensus say that there are interesting enough to keep. Personally, I think "any% real time" and "low%" categories are superfluous and vote for their debatable obsoletion. I also vote against having 5 movies of this game.

What is most inspiring is voting for/against a certain number of publications. That's just beyond bureaucracy.

IMO having four runs of the same game is not too much (although, personally, I still prefer just having wallclock timing instead of the game's internal timing, but whatever). The "collects all items" goal makes perfect sense and makes a very entertaining run. Keeping this one should be rather obvious. The "complete the game as fast as possible, without abusing game-breaking glitches, collection % is irrelevant" also makes a very interesting run and shouldn't be obsoleted for that precise reason. As a goal it's in the same category with "uses no warps" and "does not use death as a shortcut" runs, so it makes sense. The "same as above, but measuring by the internal timer instead of wallclock time" version is an idea I'm personally not very fond of, but since so many people like it, I suppose it could be kept as a special case. The "complete the game as fast as possible, whatever the means" (ie. this run) is also obviously keepworthy because it sets a record and a standard. Personally I don't find the "primary goal: complete as few items as possible, secondary goal: complete the game as fast as possible, restriction: don't abuse the game-breaking glitches" category too logical. IMO it could be dropped. EDIT: Btw, how about this category: "Doesn't use saves." (OTOH, it would be good only for as long as someone doesn't discover a game-breaking glitch which doesn't rely on saving the game... :) )

What is most inspiring is voting for/against a certain number of publications. That's just beyond bureaucracy.

It's not the number per se, it's that this run obsoletes three of them, and would feel wrong keeping three obsoleted movies due to the ratings they got before this movie appeared. I'm for recategorizing some, but not all.

Just thought I'd throw my 2 cents at this. The run is amazing and filled with wtf moments. It deserves massive praise for doing things so differently. That said, I view this much like the zelda 3 or link's awakening runs that finish the game in ungodly time using completely game breaking glitches. It should be a category unto itself and should not obsolete runs that fail to use it.

What is there in the special room under the statue when you use bombs to reach the lift ? I mean, what is there that force you to use bombs ? Isn't it suppose to be the room just under this one ? Why do you have to save and use 2 saves ? A sort of trick to resync with the "real world" to be able to glitch again and reach the room where everything is explosing ? "isoteric" is the word yeah, usually I understand anything but here, wow.

I haven't actually watched this run yet, but I thought I'd give some unsolicited opinions on the question of obsoletion. My first reaction was similar to DrJones -- This run beats the tar out of 3 different runs and should really obsolete them all. However, upon contemplation I think it is appropriate to have all the runs. People like Super Metroid and people claim that each run presents unique entertainment. It's practically getting to the point where there should be a new sub-section of the site: Super Metroid. Like I say that's not necessarily a bad thing as they are considered entertaining, but at the same time sets a new precedent really, namely that number of categories should not be considered when judging a movie's goals. It should be strictly entertainment.

If you need a good technical label for the glitches exploited here, you can say that it makes use of buffer overflows and uninitialized variables, as opposed to other glitches which are just flaws in the game engine or level design.

Table / lookup overflow would be the main glitch - technically, no buffers are overflowed. There's no uninitialized variables - the variables used for the glitch are set up in the title screen and in Brinstar. I guess you could call it uncleared variables that are carried over. The data under the statue room is actually BTS data, followed by background data (which is typically nothing but air). BTS data is used to further define stuff like crumble blocks, slopes, shootable blocks, doors, items, etc. For solid blocks and air it's generally 00, which is just air. 2 saves are used to load that firefly room in Brinstar, which is a necessary part of the setup for skipping Mother Brain. isoteric is not a word. You're looking for esoteric. :P

isoteric is not a word. You're looking for esoteric. :P

Oups, indeed. Thanks for the answers.

Can someone explain to me how this publication discussion is different from the 16-star and 0-star runs for SM64?

I'm sure the issue of obsoletion has been discussed to death already, but I'm not going to read 6 pages to find out. To me, there are three obvious reasons why this should be listed as a "glitched" run like SNES "glitched" Zelda: A Link to the Past, and should not obsolete non-glitched runs. 1. Like the stair glitch in Zelda: ALttP, Samus glitches the game so that her position doesn't match the picture on the screen, allowing her to be out of phase with reality. She jumps on things that aren't there, but do exist in the room that her location is at. This game is glitched at a very low level. 2. This glitch is even more extreme than the simple opposite direction glitch that allowed Link to walk through walls in ALttP. In order to screw things up enough, it requires a saved game to be created, switches between saved games, and even dies in the alternate game in order to get garbage data that looks like a door loaded into memory. This is way fucked upper than ALttP. If reason 1 is good enough for SNES Zelda, than reason 2 is even more compelling for Super Metroid. 3. X-Ray glitching up 11 rooms for the better part of 5 minutes is boring!!! We always talk about pure frames vs. entertainment, and no matter which side of that you're on, you have to agree that a huge entertainment sacrifice is made in order to show off this amazing discovery. To obsolete the accomplishments of the existing non-glitched runs, which are jawdroppingly entertaining, and leave only this in its place would be a tragedy. This run does something amazing and deserves to be published. But you can't use a 22 minute run (of which at least 5 minutes are glitching or messing around with saved games) to obsolete movies that are nothing but entertainment for 40 minutes. The incredible accomplishments that made those runs possible deserve to be published. This is the opinion of someone who understands very little about how this run was actually accomplished. Rather than invalidate my opinion, I think it represents the opinion of the average viewer. It's obvious to anyone that Samus is screwing with the game map by glitching off the screen on both occasions, because it causes the tiles to be all screwed up. There is a vertical door floating in mid-air! Obviously Samus is out of sync with the game map, and that's all a layman needs to know. This run obviously messes with the game in a way that the other runs don't.

As for Super Metroid per se, it's known to become obsolete already during the production of a run due to the mad pace of discovering new esoteric tricks, the players have already yielded up to that.

So is that the reason why you don't work on your low% despite sitting around here every day doing nothing for years? I mean going by your logic, it's not even necessary to wait for other TASer to find stuff for you to copy into your run, since there will always be further improvements found, right? And since you do "only" a testrun, super optimization isn't necessary anyway, but rather just beating the game to find out what problems you have to be prepared to for the final version. Why don't you just clear everybody up whether you will ever finish your run at all (low chance as it seems), and if so, when should we expect to see it? It would avoid alot of unnecessary confusion about it after all. And hopper, very good points. I couldn't have said it better.

Cpadolf, basically, the only criterion you need here is that no other runs go out-of-bounds. Every single glitch in normal runs is performed within the level space, conforming to the room bounds. Glitched Zeldas are all OOB. Same goes to several NES Megaman games, although it's notable that the non-OOB versions of their TASes just didn't exist.

So is that the reason why you don't work on your low% despite sitting around here every day doing nothing for years?

No. The previous time I explained my reasons was the previous time, go find it yourself if you want.

Glitched Zeldas are all OOB. Same goes to several NES Megaman games, although it's notable that the non-OOB versions of their TASes just didn't exist.

So what are these then?

Didn't those glitch through shit, too?

I don't think so, no. Well in RM2 there was the thing in the Bubble Man level and there might've been some other minor stuff, but I think at least Morimoto's RM1 movie didn't use any other glitches than the pause glitch.