Similarly to the previous movie, this is more a fixup to make use of new glitches than a full re-run. Although Nitsuja was not actively involved in any part of this improvement, I list him as coauthor because his input stil comprises more than 90% of the movie.

Game objectives

  • Emulator used: Gens 9.5c + S3KCamhack + Speedometer + SolidityViewer + (partial)HitboxDisplay
  • Ignores delays caused by bonus effects
  • Aims for fastest (primarily in-game) time
  • Takes Damage to save time
  • Abuses death
  • Abuses programming errors
  • Counts time spent dying
  • One player controls two characters

Comments

Hydrocity zone 2, Launch Base zone 1 and 2, and Hidden Palace Zone are improved. All other levels are untouched, except for correction due to changes in lag, and some quick pauses inserted to correct luck differences.
I PM'ed Nitsuja requesting permission to use the input from his TAS, but I have not heard back, and it appears he has not even read the PM. Since I have no other way to get in contact with him, I've gone ahead and submitted this and credited him as coauthor. I _will_ cancel this submission if he contacts me and tels me that I do not have permission to use his work.

Stage by stage comments

Hydrocity Zone, Act 2

This is the only new trick used that Nitsuja was aware of when he submitted his previous run. He did not use this trick because it requires dying in order to perform. The death takes 9 seconds, but removes the boundary lock which prevents the player from zipping past the left edge of the level and saving 24.
This is also the only level where none of Nitsuja's input survives.

Launch Base Zone, Act 1

The first four seconds of this level are Nitsuja's input.
The first thing you'll notice is that it takes a long time for me to reach the elevator. The reason for this is because the Flybot will unload if it gets too far behind, and the new trick requires taking damage while entering the elevator.
By taking damage while entering the elevator, control is maintained while inside the elevator. By using a spindash or two to pause the camera, the elevator can be made to unload by getting too far ahead of the screen. This leaves sonic in the middle of the floor, with the "Ice Cap" glitch in effect. By zipping left in the floor, Sonic can go past the level boundary, where he will then wait for the camera to bring him to _Knuckles'_ boss area. The fact that Knuckles faces two of these allows a new strategy: by using the insta-shield, Sonic can hit both bosses at once. By hitting both bosses at once, sonic reverses direction twice and ends up heading the same direction he was going before he hit them. This drastically reduces time between hits, by allowing him to jump from tails, hit both bosses, and then be caught again by tails, who is still ascending, and thereby follow the bosses more closely.
Lastly, because this area of the level differs for sonic between the end of Act 1, and the start of Act 2, Sonic can die at the start of the score tally, in order to skip it, and start the Act over at his normal starting location.

Launch Base Zone, Act 1

By starting from a death, the camera is not stuck within the boundaries of the boss fight, and Sonic can immediately spindash right, with no obstructions.
The first 6 seconds, and last 8 seconds are my input. Everything else is Nitsuja's, with minor hex-edits to make it sync despite slightly differing subpixel positions.

Launch Base Zone, Act 2

Wait... what?
(I don't even have control during this.)

Hidden Palace Zone

The first 6 seconds of Tails' input are Nitsuja's, as are the first 16 seconds of Sonic's, the 2 seconds when the camera starts to move after the Knuckles fight, and the 2 or so seconds at the end of the level, when Knuckles wakes up after the Master Emerald has been stolen.
The improvement here comes from the Knuckles boss fight, and requires Tails' assistance. Tails holds Knuckles down while Sonic lays the smack on him. This is incredibly satisfying after the cutscenes in Angel Island, Launch Base, and Mushroom Hill.

Comparison Table

Act New Time Old Time Savings Total Savings Notes
Hydrocity 2 (Pre-death) 0:09 - -0:09 -0:09 Nitsuja doesn't die and restart, so this time is just lost
Hydrocity 2 (Post-death) 0:28 0:52 0:24 0:15 A lot of time saved here by going the wrong way
Launch Base 1 (Pre-death) 0:56 - -0:56 -0:41 Nitsuja doesn't die and restart, so this time is just lost
Launch Base 1 (Post-death) 1:04 1:38 34 -0:07
Launch Base 2 0:18 1:07 0:49 0:42 What's going on here?
Hidden Palace 0:19 0:26 0:07 0:49 Take that, Knuckles.

Comparison Table (for serious this time)

Act New Time Old Time Savings Total Savings Notes
Hydrocity 2 (death) 0:09 - -0:09 -0:09 Nitsuja doesn't die and restart, so this time is just lost
Hydrocity 2 0:28 0:52 0:24 0:15 A lot of time saved here by going the "wrong" way
Launch Base 1 0:56 1:38 0:42 0:57 The "escape the elevator" glitch is really handy
Launch Base 1 1:04 1:07 0:03 1:00 This is really Launch Base 2, you see
Launch Base 2 0:18 - -0:18 0:42 For Nitsuja, the timer doesn't run during this cutscene, though the cutscene is actually shorter in my version
Hidden Palace 0:19 0:26 0:07 0:49 Knuckles is a chump

Other notes

For some reason, when Launch base is glitched this way, the cutscene where it's supposed to show Sonic and Tails watching the Death Egg falling ends 549 frames faster... and also doesn't show Sonic, Tails, or the Death Egg.
The real time savings is 4574 frames, or 1 minute 16 seconds 14 frames
The rerecord count started from the rerecord count of Nitsuja's TAS, rather than 0. This run was accomplished by re-TASing parts or all of each of the improved levels, and splicing it back into Nitsuja's TAS. This game only desyncs due to luck issues and lag differences. Since all luck issues are a result of frame rules on the universal frame timer, I would correct desyncs by adding short pauses during the loading time of the desync'ed level, rather than replaying the desync'ed portion.

Thanks to Eredani, Orkal (aka GoldS), and Skylights1 for information about the tricks used in Hydrocity, Launch Base, and Hidden Palace, respectively.

Possible improvements

In-game: If one were to aim completely for in-game time, they could die at the end of the Launch Base 1 score tally, and the cutscene would play normally -- full length, but no timer running. If one were to discount time spent during sections that end in death, one could die in Sky Sanctuary after the initial cutscene, to lower the final timer by about 22 seconds. Real-time: If one were to remove the pauses, and instead replay the desynced portions, about 40 frames could be saved. I am not aware of any other improvements.

Suggested Screenshot


NesVideoAgent: Hi! I am a robot. I took a few screenshots of this movie and placed them here. I'm not sure I got the right ROM though. (I tried Sonic and Knuckles & Sonic 3 (W) [!].gen, which was the closest match to what you wrote.) Well, here goes! Feel free to clean up the list.

BoltR Accepting as an improvement to the previous run.

DeHackEd: Encoding to AVI


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Instead of writing a long response I'll just tell you where you went wrong and let you figure out the rest comicalflop: "... because we haven't made a submission for it"
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upthorn
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AKA wrote:
moozooh probably meant "there is only about ~2 players on the site who'd have the motive to do such a run up to site standards."
I think you're wrong. I think what moozooh meant is "there are only about 2 players on the site who have the technical knowledge and TASing proficiency necessary to do a run like that which lives up to current site standards." And I think he's absolutely correct. With SprintGod, Nitsuja, and JXQ out of the TASing scene, I think Quietust and myself are probably the only people left around with the capability to do a really good Sonic TAS. And I'm not totally sure when I say that I can. I tend to be pretty crappy when it comes to issues of style. And besides, I certainly don't have the motivation to do a full length S3K TAS right now.
How fleeting are all human passions compared with the massive continuity of ducks.
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To get back on topic... Can any of these improvements be applied to the Knuckles-All-Emeralds run?
Why, oh, why do I even <i>try</i> to understand my own species?
upthorn
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That's no more on topic for this thread than the other discussion.
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I agree with upthorn. There are about only two people who are qualified to make a S3&K run right now. However, that isn't to say someone couldn't learn how to make one. As with starting all TASes, you have to learn something about the game before you can begin, and it just happens that S3&K has a massively steep learning curve. I fully believe that if I wanted to study the game and it's mechanics and flaws to the fullest extent possible, I could make a kickass run. As could many people here if they wanted to. But as it sits right now, upthorn is right, and will continue to be right until someone pours themselves into the game. However if he meant that no one would ever be able to learn how to TAS the game properly, then you're wrong, upthorn. But I doubt that's what you meant.
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mmbossman wrote:
I fully believe that if I wanted to study the game and it's mechanics and flaws to the fullest extent possible, I could make a kickass run. As could many people here if they wanted to. But as it sits right now, upthorn is right, and will continue to be right until someone pours themselves into the game.
Exactly. If you are inexperienced in (and better yet, totally unrelated to) TASing Sonic 1/2/3, what point is there to complain you aren't listed among those who actually know their stuff and have proven themselves to be able to do it? Yeah sure, let me feel insulted about my own statement as well, then. Waiter! Two hot insults, please.
Warp wrote:
Edit: I think I understand now: It's my avatar, isn't it? It makes me look angry.
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upthorn wrote:
AKA wrote:
moozooh probably meant "there is only about ~2 players on the site who'd have the motive to do such a run up to site standards."
I think you're wrong. I think what moozooh meant is "there are only about 2 players on the site who have the technical knowledge and TASing proficiency necessary to do a run like that which lives up to current site standards." And I think he's absolutely correct. With SprintGod, Nitsuja, and JXQ out of the TASing scene, I think Quietust and myself are probably the only people left around with the capability to do a really good Sonic TAS. And I'm not totally sure when I say that I can. I tend to be pretty crappy when it comes to issues of style. And besides, I certainly don't have the motivation to do a full length S3K TAS right now.
Forgot to mention there is only one person capable of producing a perfect Super Metroid TAS :-D Judging from your last statement my correction of Moozooh's statement is indeed right. Motivation far exceeds abilty or capabilty of making a TAS. I doubt it would take me that long to ajust to this game, only as you just mentioned I have no motivation (or interest) in doing such a run.
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AKA wrote:
Forgot to mention there is only one person capable of producing a perfect Super Metroid TAS :-D
for those of you without super eyesight plus Why is there so much argument in this thread when everybody starts their post with "I agree with X"?
Voted NO for NO reason
upthorn
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AKA wrote:
Judging from your last statement my correction of Moozooh's statement is indeed right.
Nope. It just means that at least half of the TASers who are qualified for it are unmotivated. Perhaps more TASers could become qualified, but there aren't any other qualified ones right now, no matter how much you want to think you are.
I doubt it would take me that long to ajust to this game, only as you just mentioned I have no motivation (or interest) in doing such a run.
TASing this game has about a 6 month learning curve. Or at least it did for me, yours might be longer. Of course, all all the trick information to go on then was the stuff in the comments of SprintGod's submissions. Perhaps it is lessened since my creation of that SonicTheHedgehogTricks page. However, two points here to be made: (1) Your only work on any similar game (Sonic 1 all emeralds) did, in fact, fall short of site standards, and site standards have risen since then. (2) TASing Sonic 1, while similar, is not very much the same as TASing Sonic 3 & Knuckles.
How fleeting are all human passions compared with the massive continuity of ducks.
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1. You're talking about a run I submitted (as my first TAS) nearly 2 years ago, which did improve parts of the current published movie. 2. It was rejected for reasons relating to the catagory, not because of its technical quality. 3. Yes, maybe back then your lack of TASing skill and knowledge caused you to take 6 months to get to grips with the game, not that I'm saying there is anything wrong with that. 4. Like you just mentioned you don't think theres resources that I could refer like currently published TASes. 5. Yes there is spindash and having to use tails, that does add to the difficulty but also simplifes certain aspects of the game. Enough of your trash talking I'll wave goodbye to this thread.
upthorn
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AKA wrote:
1. You're talking about a run I submitted (as my first TAS) nearly 2 years ago, which did improve parts of the current published movie.
And you were only able to get through it with the help of nfq, who improved your work at every turn, but decided to let you do the full TAS.
2. It was rejected for reasons relating to the catagory, not because of its technical quality.
Even if that was the case, it surely would have been rejected for technical quality by today's standards.
3. Yes, maybe back then your lack of TASing skill and knowledge caused you to take 6 months to get to grips with the game, not that I'm saying there is anything wrong with that.
At the time I started S3K, I had two published TASes, both of which stood unimproved for over a year. It is not due to lack of TASing skill that S3K has a steep learning curve.
Enough of your trash talking I'll wave goodbye to this thread.
You say that like "JUST BECAUSE I HAVEN'T TRIED DOESN'T MEAN I'M NOT BETTER THAN YOU AT IT!!" isn't a serious fucking insult to people who've actually devoted time and effort to the game.
How fleeting are all human passions compared with the massive continuity of ducks.
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May I suggest this screenshot?
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Pu7o wrote:
May I suggest this screenshot?
This is indeed a hilarious screenshot!
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I hereby {unofficially} promote Pu7o to a vested member for his screen shot finding.
adelikat wrote:
I very much agree with this post.
Bobmario511 wrote:
Forget party hats, Christmas tree hats all the way man.
upthorn
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Pu7o wrote:
May I suggest this screenshot?
Sure.
How fleeting are all human passions compared with the massive continuity of ducks.
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Voting yes. Congrats on kind of breaking Launch Base Zone. One thing I'm confused on: Hydrocity 2. If I'm watching right, after the death, you do EXACTLY what Nitsuja does, except you warp right to the boss. How does the death set this up?
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upthorn
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Solon wrote:
Voting yes. Congrats on kind of breaking Launch Base Zone. One thing I'm confused on: Hydrocity 2. If I'm watching right, after the death, you do EXACTLY what Nitsuja does, except you warp right to the boss. How does the death set this up?
Not quite. Once in the floor, Nitsuja zipped to the right. I zip to the left. The death is required for this, because transitioning normally from Act 1, there's a positional lock that doesn't allow Sonic or the camera to go left past where you fought the boss, but this lock is not present when restarting after death (or entering from level select). Which is why, after dying I can zip left all the way past the left edge of the level (which warps me directly to the right edge). Do you understand now?
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Post subject: One of Those Aqfaq's Trivia Posts
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Trivia: This is one of those movies that has 40 000 more rerecords than all my 11 published movies together.
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Yeah, I get it now, Upthorn. Thanks for explaining.
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http://s230.photobucket.com/albums/ee172/Daggerwolf/tas%20screenshots/ I took some screenshots. Loved the TAS, voted yes.
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Haha. Nitsuja was awesome! I approve the new tricks, but the time spent waiting for the bird monster looks horrible. Even wobbling would have looked better. :(
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Can someone please hurry up and publish this? :(
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DeHackEd did mention that its on his recent to do list.
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I know this is being published, but I have to vote my Yes for it anyway.
<klmz> it reminds me of that people used to keep quoting adelikat's IRC statements in the old good days <adelikat> no doubt <adelikat> klmz, they still do
Post subject: Movie published
TASVideoAgent
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This movie has been published. The posts before this message apply to the submission, and posts after this message apply to the published movie. ---- [1112] Genesis Sonic 3 & Knuckles by nitsuja & upthorn in 33:05.78