Post subject: Little Nemo - The Dream Master
Former player
Joined: 11/13/2005
Posts: 1587
I couldn't find a topic for this game with the search function, so I decided to create one. Anyways, I've been working on this game for a while (I started it before the latest run was submitted) and now I'm finally done with the second level and I'm currently 401 frames ahead. 45 frames in the first level, which come from optimizations and 356 frames in the second level, which come from optimizations and better strategies. Overall I think the latest run is improvable by, lets say 30 seconds or more, not sure about it, but at least 30 seconds, because of better routes and some short cuts here and there. And here's the WIP. Enjoy and please comment on it. EDIT: Also, Nemo is one extremely violent little boy. First he drugs the animals with sedatives of some kind and then rips their intestines out and wears their skin, or forces them to carry him on their back. Well, it's not easy when you got so annoying parents.
Skilled player (1410)
Joined: 5/31/2004
Posts: 1821
Nice to see you continued this again. It is possible to clear the second level 36 frames faster, by doing this.
Banned User
Joined: 12/5/2007
Posts: 742
Location: Gone
What are the objectives here? Taking damage? Abusing glitches?
Former player
Joined: 11/13/2005
Posts: 1587
symbolic X wrote:
What are the objectives here? Taking damage? Abusing glitches?
Well, my goal is obviously the fastest time and I use any means possible, such as death and damage to achieve that goal.
Former player
Joined: 4/16/2004
Posts: 1286
Location: Finland
I'm really glad to see you decided to pick it up. I'll be looking forward to seeing your run on the bench.
Former player
Joined: 11/13/2005
Posts: 1587
Level 4 done. 498 frames ahead at the moment. This game has probably the most boring autoscrollers ever, so I made adelikat do the 3rd level. He managed to save 4 frames there. 56 frames saved in the 4th level. 27 of those come from optimizations (mostly from better corner cutting) and the rest from a slight strategic change at the end of the level. I hope you enjoy watching the WIP and if you notice anything that seems weird or something that could be done faster, please notify :)
Former player
Joined: 4/16/2004
Posts: 1286
Location: Finland
I'm loving it. The death abuse in level 2 is really great. I'm a bit disappointed that one 1up in level 3 wasn't taken, it's actually pretty hard to get so it would've been nice. But I'm more than satisfied you're improving it, so I'm not complaining :)
Experienced player (828)
Joined: 11/18/2006
Posts: 2426
Location: Back where I belong
Generic looks good compliment
Living Well Is The Best Revenge My Personal Page
Skilled player (1827)
Joined: 4/20/2005
Posts: 2161
Location: Norrköping, Sweden
Topic revival! I've been working on this game some, and so far I've done the first two levels. This current WIP is: *808 frames (13.47sec) faster than the published run. *370 frames (6.17sec) faster than Guybrush's WIP. *550 frames (9.17sec) faster than max's rejected run. *52 frames (8.67sec) faster than my previous WIP (after level 1). Here it is. The biggest improvement is oscillating my movement speed, increasing my average movement speed. This is done by pressing right every fifth frame instead of holding down right when moving. Another way to achieve the same movement speed is by pressing left,right,left,right, wobbling your way forward. this will increase my average movement speed from by an additional 16 subpixels per frame, which adds up to quite a lot at the end. In the example below, if I say that my speed is X it means 16*x subpixels per frame. The reason for this is because you only move in 16 subpixel intervalls. So if I say that my speed is 18, it's actually 18*16 = 288 subpixels per frame. An example: Nemo's normal speed is 18. The game will calculate if it should increase speed by reasoning like this: When right is held down, if your speed is >=18 then set speed to 18, else increase speed by 4. If I release right when moving at top speed in air, my speed will be decrease to 17. Now, if I press right again, my speed will increase to 21. I now release right, which causes my speed to decrease by 1 per frame. The I repeat this procedure, making my movement pattern look like this: 17-21-20-19-18-17-21-20-19-18-17-..., giving me an average speed of 19, 1 higher than your normal top speed. The wobbling movement trick is essentially the same, except that once my speed is 21, I press left, instantly decreasing it to 17. This gives me the movement pattern 17-21-17-21-..., with an average speed of 19. Another new trick, which somewhat connected to the oscillating speed trick, is only possible to perform when in the gorilla or lizard form. When you land on the ground after a jump, you will keep the speed you had the frame before you hit the ground for a few frames. By optimizing my movement speed right before I hit the ground, I can keep a higher speed on these few frames after the jump. Some comments on level 1: *Jumping up the first two mushrooms is faster than running. *After picking up the key above the big mushroom, keeping the frog form is faster than transforming back to Nemo, at least when using the movement trick. (I did some testing and it turns out that it's 4 frames faster to keep the frog) Some comments on level 2: *When climbing up the tree as the gorilla, max climbed the right side of the tree, while I (and Guybrush) climbed the left side. Climbing the left side is actually faster, even if it might not look like it. (I tested this too, and it's at least 35 frames faster than climbing the right side of the tree) Any thoughts or comments? Any interest in this?
Editor, Expert player (2479)
Joined: 4/8/2005
Posts: 1573
Location: Gone for a year, just for varietyyyyyyyyy!!
Randil wrote:
Any interest in this?
Definitely. It all sounds very interesting. I really hope to see a full run with this level of quality. Good luck, Randil!
Banned User
Joined: 12/5/2007
Posts: 742
Location: Gone
Randil! That, my friend, is how a good TAS can be made! Keep going with the remaining levels, don't stick around too long on the slow train level, and I predict you may save at least 3000 frames. Yours should go through once you submit it, but always double-check. =)
Skilled player (1827)
Joined: 4/20/2005
Posts: 2161
Location: Norrköping, Sweden
Thanks for the support. :) Level 3 is done now. Since this is an autoscroller, the only thing I had to worry about (in terms of speed) was lag, which I managed to avoid completely. I also gained some time by getting on the train faster. On this level I gained (mostly thanks to lag reduction): *37 frames over the published run. *23 frames over Guybrush's WIP. *26 frames over max's run. So far I've managed to avoid lag completely, so hopefully I can keep it up. Here's the WIP. Enjoy!
J.Y
Skilled player (1174)
Joined: 5/24/2008
Posts: 81
Ah,26frames faster than max's?? I am glad to hear that,as long as fast is the good
Skilled player (1827)
Joined: 4/20/2005
Posts: 2161
Location: Norrköping, Sweden
This is over 1 year overdue, but I decided to pick this up again and have completed level 4 today. Here's the new WIP. Points of interest: *You'll often see me throwing candy when making a jump out of the water. This is because if you throw a candy at the same time as you jump out of the water, you'll get maximum speed upwards. Sometimes you'll get that speed anyway, but it's not certain if you don't throw a candy at the same time. *Just like in max's rejected run, I enter the snail at the beginning of the level and move under the boat, in the sand. This neat trick saved about 150 frames! *After exiting the second snail, around frame 27200, I use a trick/bug. By exiting the snail right after I make a jump with it, I preserve the snail's Y speed after transforming back to Nemo. This speed is higher than Nemo can obtain, so I swim up here at quite an impressive speed. This, however, made the two enemies above disappear, which isn't very good because I wanted to do a damage boost on them, but it still saves a lot of time. *With the Wobbling movement trick, the route above the water at the end of the level is slightly faster than going under the water. *Damage boosting with the frog under water does not save any time. This game holds a lot of tricks and bugs, it seems. :) Compared to the other runs, this level is: *312 frames faster than the published run. *256 frames faster than brushy's run. *305 frames faster than max's run. This is where brushy's WIP ends, so no more comparing to that one. Hopefully I can be determined enough to finish this, otherwise you'll have to wait yet another year for the next WIP. ;)
Expert player (3643)
Joined: 11/9/2007
Posts: 375
Location: Varberg, Sweden
I did give this game a try this summer, but dropped it quickly and never got my progress posted here so I do that now instead. Thanks for the indirect reminder! http://dehacked.2y.net/microstorage.php/info/116909430/Little%20Nemo%20-%20The%20Dream%20Master%20%28U%29.fcm It only plays through a fraction of the first level but I managed to handle the situation with getting the frog a little faster (10 frames at max). I really hope this game is edit-friendly or else I wouldn't bother adding it, unless you feel like playing through the game once again later:) Nevertheless, good luck with the run! I look forward to see it finished.
feos wrote:
Only Aglar can improve this now.
Skilled player (1827)
Joined: 4/20/2005
Posts: 2161
Location: Norrköping, Sweden
Thanks for the information, unfortunately this game is not edit friendly, due to lag and randomness. The nature of the game is such that no matter how hard you try there's always this feeling that it can be improved further, no matter how hard you try (due to complicated physics, lag, randomness, you know the stuff). Basically, I guess I'll leave those 10 frames for the next version. :) EDIT: Level 5 done now. I saved 1088 frames (18.13 sec) over the published run on this level thanks to: *Picking up the first key with the frog instead of the bee (see around frame 30600). This is because the frog moves slightly faster than the bee, and I'm right next to that corridor anyway with the frog, so it's no detour at all. With the bee, picking up this key is a slight detour. This trick saved about 150 frames or so. *In the cellar, I keep the frog form right until I'm next to the bee (the frog moves faster than Nemo), and then use the bee to take the key instead of using the lizard. This strategy saved around 520 frames. *Around frame 38300, I use a strategy that max used in his run: By manipulating the enemy's position, I can do a damage boost on him, instead of stopping for some time like in the published run. This forced me to conserve one more point of HP, but it still made up for it. *The blue rat has the same feature as the gorilla and the lizard, that it keeps his current speed for a few frames when he lands, so by making sure I have top speed when I land, I gain some time. This is why I jump all the time with the rat. *Optimized movements and flying made up for the rest of the time saved. Movie file. EDIT 2: I don't know if anyone watches these WIPs or even checks the updates, but still: I have finished level 6 now. This level is mostly autoscrolling, so no huge improvements here. I saved 122 frames over the published run on this level. Here's the .fcm.
Joka
He/Him
Player (16)
Joined: 3/19/2013
Posts: 42
Location: Sweden
Does anyone still checks this thread or care about this game? I have some questions :)
Signature
Skilled player (1827)
Joined: 4/20/2005
Posts: 2161
Location: Norrköping, Sweden
I lurk around this forum still, although not as frequently as before. It's been some time since I TASed this game, but perhaps I can help you with your questions?
Joka
He/Him
Player (16)
Joined: 3/19/2013
Posts: 42
Location: Sweden
Yay! :) So basically, I'm working on an RTA for this game, trying to at least improve the run on SDA. I have two main questions: 1. How the ... does the penguin boss work? He seems to take between 5-8 shots to kill, at random, no matter where I aim. Perhaps I'm missing something obvious. 2. Supposedly, there is a zip glitch in the game, which isn't in any TAS. Post here: http://goo.gl/J3o3n. Any idea? This is driving me crazy. Also I wont say no to other general tips&trix that might be useful in an RTA. :) EDIT: And yes, I've been trying to contact the poster on SDA a few weeks ago. So far no answer.
Signature
Skilled player (1827)
Joined: 4/20/2005
Posts: 2161
Location: Norrköping, Sweden
1. The Penguin boss has 23 HP. Depending on how much your staff is charged, you'll deal between 1 and 5 damage to him. The only way to hurt him is to hit him on the head. In practice, this means that you have to stand far enough to the left for your shot to hit him on the head. I've made a picture showing the rightmost position you can have and still hit him, so never stand more to the right than in this picture when shooting him: Perhaps you can use those spikes in the background as rules of thumbs on where to stand? Perhaps the rule "Never stand to the right of the third spike" could be a good rule of thumb. 2. I'm afraid I can't help you much here, though the glitch does sound promising. Maybe (a big maybe!) I can look into this sometime soon and try to find out how it works. Hmm, as for other suggestions... you should read my submission comments carefully, http://tasvideos.org/2408S.html, as there are some tricks explained there that can probably be used in a RTA. I can't think if anything in particular right now, but feel free to ask specific questions. Lycka till! :)
Joka
He/Him
Player (16)
Joined: 3/19/2013
Posts: 42
Location: Sweden
Wow, thanks a lot! :) I figured you did more damage to him when you hit his head, but I didn't think you did 0 if you hit him in the belly. Regarding the zip glitch; yeah, it almost sound to good to be true. The only thing I've found that can be related to this, is that if you climb into a corner as high as you can with the lizard (as the post said) and you switch back to Nemo - he will zip about a "Nemo-length" to the left. But this isn't very useful :P It also works with the frog if you jump into a ceiling and switch to Nemo at the highest point. I have read your submission comment very carefully. But a lot of the big or seemingly easier time savers doesn't seem to work in real time. Like going under the boat in stage 4, grabbing the first key with the frog and skipping the lizard in the basement in stage 5. But some of them works and saves a lot of time. Like skipping the frog and keeping the lizard in stage 8-2 (I love that one! :D) Thanks again for the help!
Signature
Joined: 4/11/2013
Posts: 8
Hi, I found a glitch while playing Little Nemo on the NES years ago, but when I tried to find any information about it, I came up empty. Here's basically what happened: I started a game of Little Nemo on the NES for nostalgia's sake, and since I had played it so many times, I had blazed through the first three levels without dying, or maybe I died once, I can't remember. Anyway, on the fourth level, I was almost at the end, specifically on the surface of the water attempting to get onto the right island as seen at http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sET6zXHiavQ&t=7m37s . Now, as everyone who's ever tried to get out of the water has experienced, Nemo only hopped up half way, causing him to fall back into the water. Since I didn't know what exactly allowed him to jump all the way onto the island, and I didn't want to swim around, I attempted to jump up for a few minutes, falling short every time. What had happened after that few minutes was the "Nemo dying" tune played and the music went silent, but Nemo was still alive and I could control him. After what I think was thirty seconds, the game faded to black and the level reset, as if Nemo had died. I finished the level (and the game) as normal, but I still don't know what exactly triggered it. Essentially, what I'd like to know is: 1. What exactly determines how high Nemo jumps out of the water (without throwing the candy)? Is it based on an RNG? Did I need to submerge a bit and get some speed before I jumped out? Direction presses? 2. Why did this glitch even happen? Thanks.
Joined: 3/16/2013
Posts: 43
Well, if I were to guess, I'd say the bug is lag-related. Maybe the water also comes into play. You might want to ask Randil, max, or someone else with a bit more experience with this game for a more in-depth answer.
Joka
He/Him
Player (16)
Joined: 3/19/2013
Posts: 42
Location: Sweden
Hi again! I'm posting partially as a bit of an update, incase anyone was wondering if I ever did an actual run. My current best RTA time is 26:04 23:50 (japanese version), which afaik currently is the fastest RTA in existence. Much thanks to stealing some tricks from Randil's TAS. It could still improve it by quite a bit, as there are a lot of execution mistakes in it. But the main problem I have is still the penguin boss :( ..which is the second reason I'm posting... I found the memory position of the boss's HP (I'm a complete newbie at using emulators to anything other than playing, so it took a while), so I can look and see when I actually damage him. The strange thing with this boss, however, seems to be that sometimes my shots just.. misses.. even though I'm actually hitting him, in the head, as instructed by Randil's response. Someone has to have noticed this while doing a TAS for this game and why it is? It's killing me that I can't figure it out :P Thanks again! EDIT: Ok, so we figured out how it works :) Here's my post explaining it, in case anyone is interested.
Signature
Joka
He/Him
Player (16)
Joined: 3/19/2013
Posts: 42
Location: Sweden
So there are zips... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vhYs0btSIlg http://imgur.com/a/fZ77a Haven't found any use for them yet though (in real time). You guys might figure something out?
Signature