It's possible that Islam is going to be pretty big in the future. I once read that Islam and Christianity might unite into one single religion: Chrislam. According to Muslims, they have the same God as Christians. I think the Quran also predicts that Islam will become the biggest religion in the future.
It's going to be wonderful. All religions will unite into One World Religion. Finally, all the barriers of religion and countries will disappear, and there will be no war anymore.
The biggest delusion of them all.
So many people will be deceived.
Allah has no son.
Yes, but it is still the same god (even Christians and Jews in the Arab world who primarily speak Arabic refer to their god as "Allah"); Christians are the only ones who believe that Yeshua was the son of God, while Muslims regard him ("Isa" in Arabic) as not God's son but still the fourth of the five most important prophets: Nuh (Noach, Noah), Ibrahim (Avraham, Abraham), Musa (Moshe, Moses), Isa (Yeshua, Jesus), and Muhammad.
Also Chrislam is just a tiny sect centered in Lagos, not a future synthesis of the two most widespread religions; I'm sure the vast theological differences will keep Christianity and Islam from converging, and if anything the trend has been toward increasing doctrinal division within religious organizations (even though political and social unity among them may increase).
Finally (once again, directed more at nfq than at Bisqwit), Islam is pretty big now, although not in the Western world (then again in the UK and probably other European nations there are now more Muslims than Jews, unlike the US); India, Russia, and China have huge numbers of Muslims, for example, and about 1/5 of the global population identifies as Muslim, although given where most of them live, their global influence is still disproportionately low.
Yes, but it is still the same god (even Christians and Jews in the Arab world who primarily speak Arabic refer to their god as "Allah"); Christians are the only ones who believe that Yeshua was the son of God, while Muslims regard him ("Isa" in Arabic) as not God's son but still the fourth of the five most important prophets: Nuh (Noach, Noah), Ibrahim (Avraham, Abraham), Musa (Moshe, Moses), Isa (Yeshua, Jesus), and Muhammad.
Finally (once again, directed more at nfq than at Bisqwit), Islam is pretty big now, although not in the Western world (then again in the UK and probably other European nations there are now more Muslims than Jews, unlike the US); India, Russia, and China have huge numbers of Muslims, for example, and about 1/5 of the global population identifies as Muslim, although given where most of them live, their global influence is still disproportionately low.
Wow, what a coincidence. I was just reading your question from an early page of this thread.
Ramzi wrote:
Can drugs bring about a religious experience? If so, what is the likelihood religions were inspired with drugs?
Yes. Drug use can bring all kinds of experiences, religious and otherwise, considering what kind of malfunctions they cause in the brain.
But there is also a spiritual side of drugs: Like heavy alcohol usage, it also damages one's self-control, making one more suspect for control by demons.
As for your question about likelihoods, no matter which number I said in my reply, it would have no practical meaning whatsoever. I will ignore this question.
ShadowWraith wrote:
Do you think Hellfire is regular fire that burns using Oxygen, or some kind of continuous nuclear fission/fusion generated fire, similar to that which keeps stars burning?
Do you think Hell will eventually extinguish itself much like stars do?
No way of knowing and hardly relevant. However, it is described as eternal torment, so I don't think it's a wise idea to rely on it extinguishing eventually.
To me it's funny how Islam and Christianity both believe they are right. And I've heard the argument that Allah/God gives a chance to everyone to join the right religion at one point in there lives. Both Christians and Muslims think converting them to their religion is the only thing that can save them from hell. Both pray and receive answers and directions. There's the Quran and there's the Bible.
What is it that convinces you that only Christianity is right?
How would you convince an alternate Muslim version of yourself? (f.e. a twin brother who you really care for - assuming you wanted to convince him)
How would you react to his tries of convincing you / to him giving you the chance to refute your opinion? He'd use similar arguments to yours, citing the Quran.
Slightly unrelated:
Isn't it a valid way to get closer to YHWH if all women dressed up in veils (because they'd decide by themselves to do so) even from a Christian point of view? It makes it easier to follow the 10 amendments for our whole society.
About the last 10 minutes of that video (didn't watch more because he's talking so slowly): I'm sure lots of comparable material exists, only that it's pro-Islamic. Of course there is no proof for the resurrection of Jesus except if you count the Bible - only evidence. There's also evidence that he wasn't resurrected at the same time, so what makes you believe version A true?
A Muslim might say "Thank Allah, the resurrection of Jesus wasn't put in the Quran." The guy in the video says it's good that rubbish like Jesus forming birds out of clay (sorry if I'm misquoting) that then would fly away.
Also, being resurrected from the death, making birds appear and all other miracles is stuff that you see many magicians perform.
Is there any proof Jesus wasn't just doing that?
Don't you pick what you believe and what you don't believe in based on a kind of arbitrary basis?
Kuwanga
A Muslim doesn't have to cite Quran or quote his Prophet to tell people about his creed. Muslims accept Islam over other belief systems becase Islam is the only religion which relies on logic, aswell as revelation. You might think it sounds snide, but it is the case.
Not all belief systems are offshoots of christianity, nor are they all "giving the same claims, but in different flavors" Christianity and Islam differ on the very fundamental things about the Creator of the Universe.
Muslims believe that the Creator created all things, defined them, directed them in everything they do, good or bad, and He does not resemble the creations in any way. He doesn't change or exist in a location or direction. Or have a form. Or have a mode or process. [I could go on and on about the differences]
When a muslim tells someone about the creed, he isn't hopeing that his words convince that person. He is hoping the Creator willed for that person to be guided. And if the person still refuses, than as they say, "That is that"
[00:31:12] <stickie> by the way, thanks for the sig sixofour
[00:31:23] <sixofour> dejavu
[00:31:25] <sixofour> what sig?
[00:31:55] <stickie> you will just have to find out *insert mystical music*
Kuwanga
A Muslim doesn't have to cite Quran or quote his Prophet to tell people about his creed. Muslims accept Islam over other belief systems becase Islam is the only religion which relies on logic, aswell as revelation. You might think it sounds snide, but it is the case.
Not all belief systems are offshoots of christianity, nor are they all "giving the same claims, but in different flavors" Christianity and Islam differ on the very fundamental things about the Creator of the Universe.
Muslims believe that the Creator created all things, defined them, directed them in everything they do, good or bad, and He does not resemble the creations in any way. He doesn't change or exist in a location or direction. Or have a form. Or have a mode or process. [I could go on and on about the differences]
When a muslim tells someone about the creed, he isn't hopeing that his words convince that person. He is hoping the Creator willed for that person to be guided. And if the person still refuses, than as they say, "That is that"
Christians also don't have to cite a thing.. A Muslim who wants to save a Christian friend from the torments of hell probably would though. And he'd pray to Allah for that friend's sake.
Islam believes that Allah picked a destiny for every human being, but they are still able to act against it. They'll get punished for it during their lives and burn in hell afterwards. Christians believe it's people's free choice to believe or not to and they will also be sort of punished by feeling an emptiness inside through all their lives and the gates to paradise will remain closed.
The concept of Christianity sounds much nicer, as a Muslim I'd probably call them undisciplined and deceived non-believers. As a Christian I'd maybe call Muslims violent, misguided victims of Satan.
I don't see how any of their differences makes the religions uncomparable. Both claim to be the absolute truth on questionable bases.
Those very differences you've listed are what I'd indeed call different flavours of the same thing. One of those religions might be right, all of them might be wrong. And I count evolutionists as a religion. No way to tell for a human being. I think I'll stop caring now..
A person can't go aginst their destiny. And I don't mean its "sinful" to do it. I mean its an objective impossiblity. It cannot happen. Because 1..no human knows their destiny, and 2, what ever a person does. Every thought, ever belief, every feeling every intention, is created and put in place by the Creator. Everything that happens is created by the Creator, and every attribute of those things is defined by the Creator. What ever a person does, good or bad, was willed by the Creator to happen. The creations are the property of the Creator, and He does with them what ever he wills. And he is just in all that he does. Because being Just means that one does what one is entitled to do. Injustice is doing what one is not entitled to do. The Creator of everything is entitled to do what ever he wills.
Second, those things I described are not talking about the same thing. If a person thinks God had a son, than that person doesn't know who God is, simple enough. If a person thinks the Creator changes, or is located somewhere, then they don't know who the Creator is, they are thinking about something else.
The reality is, christians are more in tune with hindus, they draw images and carve statues and worship those statues. They have a picture in thierminds that they pray to. They , like the pagans, have to have something tangible, something created to look at and say "That is God" And Islam doesn't have this.
If 1 person described a horse, and another person described a chiken, you cannot say that they are both talking about the same thing.
If one group described a material being who had to be murdered, had kids, and looks like your average joe, and another group described one who is not similar to anything that exists. Then thsoe two groups are not talking about the same thing.
Saying they are the same, is just like saying atheism and buddahism are the same thing. Clearly they are not.
[00:31:12] <stickie> by the way, thanks for the sig sixofour
[00:31:23] <sixofour> dejavu
[00:31:25] <sixofour> what sig?
[00:31:55] <stickie> you will just have to find out *insert mystical music*
Oh I didn't mean to say they're the same. There's similarity and there's difference.
The Muslim girls who don't marry their destined partner (i.e. the guy their fathers pick), but choose some love marriage are f.e. defying Allah's will and their punishment is an unhappy life and hell. So I've heard. They aren't disciplined enough and that's why Allah doesn't approve them, they are not worthy. At the same time their parents might be wondering why Allah punishes them with such stupidly unobedient daughters.
sixofour wrote:
If 1 person described a horse, and another person described a chiken, you cannot say that they are both talking about the same thing.
If they argue on which of these two animals' meat tastes better to a generic human being and one "knows" it's definitely the chicken because (insert obscure reason / evidence / logic) and the other claims it's clearly the horse, I'd say the talk about the same thing. And that thing is claiming absolute truth of a certain belief related to meat.
I don't mean to compare preference to choice of religion, it's just for pointing out how I can say they're talking about the same thing when it's evident they don't. >_>
If they don't marry the guy their father wants them to. Then Allah didn't will/destine for her to marry him. Also, she doesn't have to marry who her father wants. And the father cannot deny a guy to marry her if the guy is a reasonable person.
The father of someone is not God, so if someone defies their father, they are not defing God.
If a person curses the creator on purpose and kills people and does all these things, they are only doing what the Creator willed for them to do...what they did IS their destiny.
When we say a person is damned, that IS what it means, it means that since before birth this persons fate was already made that they would end up in hell. They are just living out the life given to them. Like wise if a person is destined for heaven, than that is what they get and they are just lviing it out. The thing is, however, is no one knows where they will end up untill the very end.
[00:31:12] <stickie> by the way, thanks for the sig sixofour
[00:31:23] <sixofour> dejavu
[00:31:25] <sixofour> what sig?
[00:31:55] <stickie> you will just have to find out *insert mystical music*
It seems we've encountered different forms of Islam. I wonder which sticks more to the Quran.
Edit: Do you know? Can you quote a passage? Would be nice. :X
There isn't different forums, but there are many groups who call themselves muslims while they aren't.
Just because a group calls themself muslim, doesn't mean they are, nor does it mean what they are on, is part of islam.
In short, a Muslim is one who believes the Creator of everything is not like anything, and that Muhammad was the last prophet. If they don't believe that, they are not a muslim.
[00:31:12] <stickie> by the way, thanks for the sig sixofour
[00:31:23] <sixofour> dejavu
[00:31:25] <sixofour> what sig?
[00:31:55] <stickie> you will just have to find out *insert mystical music*
In short, a Muslim is one who believes the Creator of everything is not like anything, and that Muhammad was the last prophet. If they don't believe that, they are not a muslim.
This definition doesn't contradict the existence of a free will that has an impact on your fate though. Also, the wikipedia article on Islam says there exist both groups of Muslims we talked about. There's even a third view, called the Sunni view, which I think is particularly interesting. Of course you can claim that only one of them is truly Islamic all the way you want.
Its not "my claim". There is no mystery as to who is muslim and who is not, however, wikipedia is forced to consider all possbilities on an equal level. And the fact that the site is maintained by people who don't know what they are talking about, makes it very suspect.
There are as I said many people who call themselves muslim, but aren't. In Islam, things aren't about "interpertation" or "views" A thing simply is or it isn't, as iot pertains to the creed. There are clear and defined lines, if someone crosses those lines, they leave islam. Its not up for debate. And this is how it has always been in Islam.
You have many groups of misguided people, Ismailis, Ekwan, NOI, Whahabies, Qadariyya, Mushebihah, Mutezzila, etc etc... all of them have differing beleives, and all of them do not have the Creed brought my Muhammad, the Creed of Islam. So even though they can call themselves what ever they want, they aren't muslims, and they never will be.
There is no mystery or grey area in this.
Also, people don't have free will. They have will.
[00:31:12] <stickie> by the way, thanks for the sig sixofour
[00:31:23] <sixofour> dejavu
[00:31:25] <sixofour> what sig?
[00:31:55] <stickie> you will just have to find out *insert mystical music*
What's the difference between people who call themselves Muslim and are and the ones who call themselves Muslim and aren't then? It's like being montheistic (=religious) or being a heath or the difference between being a civilized country or a barbaric tribe. The ones in power get to decide.
One group has the correct creed, and their creed fits with what was taught by the prophets and revealed to them. And the other group has a creed that contradicts what the prophets tasught and what was revealed to them.
That is how you know you are a muslim.
And you know you have the correct creed also, because it is logical. But many people don't know what logic is.
[00:31:12] <stickie> by the way, thanks for the sig sixofour
[00:31:23] <sixofour> dejavu
[00:31:25] <sixofour> what sig?
[00:31:55] <stickie> you will just have to find out *insert mystical music*
He does not resemble the creations in any way. He doesn't change or exist in a location or direction. Or have a form. Or have a mode or process
This god that you're describing sounds very much like nothingness (the absence of anything). You say that god is formless, but what would prevent the allmighty creator to temporarily take on a form and become a human being for example?
Because being Just means that one does what one is entitled to do. Injustice is doing what one is not entitled to do.
Incorrect. Being Just means to be kind and loving.
When we say a person is damned, that IS what it means, it means that since before birth this persons fate was already made that they would end up in hell. They are just living out the life given to them. Like wise if a person is destined for heaven, than that is what they get and they are just lviing it out.
It's wrong of god to send people to eternal torment just because he wants to. You say that god can do whatever he wants because he is the creator and we are the creations. But what gave god the right to do whatever he wants?
If a person thinks God had a son, than that person doesn't know who God is,
The fact that god has a "son" probabaly shouldn't be taken so literally. god is also called "father", but that doesn't mean that god is a man. It's metaphorical.
The reality is, christians are more in tune with hindus, they draw images and carve statues and worship those statues.
Christians and hindus don't pray to the statues themselves; they pray to what the statues symbolize.
The Creator is perfect, having to morph into a human would be a weakness. Humans are imperfect beings. And when something changes, it gets better or worse. And when something changes, it is dependant on something else to define its new status. The Creator is not dependant on anything.
---
Being Just, is doing what ever you are entitled to do. Being unjust is doing something you are not entitled to do.
If a man steals something, he is being unjust. Because he is taking something that is not his, and thus he isn't able to do with it what ever he wants.
When a man has a property and he says he doesn't want any white people or mexicans on it, and he forbids them to enter, he is being just, because its his property and he can decide who is and who is not allowed on it.
The Creator created us, that means he has the right to do with us what ever he wills. We are his property. There is no barganing with the Creator, we as humans have utterly no ability or power to do anything to the Creator, and the Creator has the power to do with us what ever he wills. And he isn't not questioned about it. That is what gives him the right. He owns us.
----
In Christianity, the notion that the Creator had a son, is taken literally. So I am refering to it as such.
The christians and hindus worship an image of something, when they think about what they worship, and image, a picture comes into their head, they call this picture God, and they direct their prayer to it.
[00:31:12] <stickie> by the way, thanks for the sig sixofour
[00:31:23] <sixofour> dejavu
[00:31:25] <sixofour> what sig?
[00:31:55] <stickie> you will just have to find out *insert mystical music*
I admit this character fault of mine. I can say quite cold-hearted things in a laconic tone.
That does not mean that I don't care, or that I am not saddened by the circumstances, though.
(Heh, an example of a sentence where removing a double negation doesn't make a sentence of equivalent meaning.)
Joined: 5/1/2004
Posts: 4096
Location: Rio, Brazil
Bisqwit, do you think God prefers you to spend your time learning to adore him or that He prefers you to spend your time working to help build a better society?
The Creator is perfect, having to morph into a human would be a weakness.
Are you a Muslim?
When a man has a property and he says he doesn't want any white people or mexicans on it, and he forbids them to enter, he is being just, because its his property and he can decide who is and who is not allowed on it.
I don't think humans can't be compared to a piece of land because we have feelings, which give us special rights. If we create a cyborg which has no feelings, we can do whatever we want with it, but if we give it feelings, we no longer have the right to do whatever we want with it. That would be sadistic and wrong.
An individual human can't really own a piece of land because that human didn't create the land. The whole earth belongs to all humans and humans belong to themselves.
There is no barganing with the Creator, we as humans have utterly no ability or power to do anything to the Creator, and the Creator has the power to do with us what ever he wills. And he isn't not questioned about it. That is what gives him the right. He owns us.
I will pwn Allah on the Judgement day if he tries to send anyone to hell. Trust me.
The christians and hindus worship an image of something, when they think about what they worship, and image, a picture comes into their head, they call this picture God, and they direct their prayer to it.
Hindus say that God is formless, and that's why he can have any form he wants.
I sort of agree that God is formless, but many humans have a hard time to have a "relationship" with something so alien and distant, that's why people still like to get into connection to God by worshipping something that has a form, or at least a personality. Today, many people see themselves as persons, so our perception of God is also similar: God is a person, like the son of God, Jesus. We create God in our own image, and when we evolve, our perception of God evolves.
Joined: 5/1/2004
Posts: 4096
Location: Rio, Brazil
nfq wrote:
I don't think humans can't be compared to a piece of land because we have feelings, which give us special rights. If we create a cyborg which has no feelings, we can do whatever we want with it, but if we give it feelings, we no longer have the right to do whatever we want with it. That would be sadistic and wrong.
An individual human can't really own a piece of land because that human didn't create the land. The whole earth belongs to all humans and humans belong to themselves.
Yeah. Unfortunately, we don't live in an utopic world. We live in a world where people don't respect each other's needs so we need simple rules. Capitalism seems to be the best method for the current general spiritual level of humans, and so it should be for a few hundred years.
I'm done, I just wanted to add a comment ot two anyways. Actually debating on the internet is fail.
[00:31:12] <stickie> by the way, thanks for the sig sixofour
[00:31:23] <sixofour> dejavu
[00:31:25] <sixofour> what sig?
[00:31:55] <stickie> you will just have to find out *insert mystical music*
1) What is your favorite thing that resulted from creating this site?
2) What is your least favorite thing that resulted from creating this site?
Good luck in your future, Bisqwit.
<Swordless> Go hug a tree, you vegetarian (I bet you really are one)
