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Posted: 5/5/2007 8:12 AM
(Edited: 5/6/2007 3:52 AM)
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Sir_VG
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Joined: 10/9/2004
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That's what I'll be doing with my maps...going over what paths I took. I'll try to get what populations were after each growth too. I've been doing some deep analyzing of Professional! mode via spreadsheets. Doing some rough calculating, my present time is 28:40. Looking through all my recorded attempts (5 of them), it's possible to improve that time by at least 51 seconds in time units, not counting a few other factors (life restoration, and a stupid death I had at Aitos refight). Taking off the 51 seconds would bring it down to 27:49, minus about another 15 seconds for the death would be 27:34. Of course, with TAS capabilities, it should be possible to get below 27:30. Google Spreadsheet of times. And yeah, I have both. In fact, you should know me from another place in regards to IRC. Just know that I'm not on a whole lot. It may seem that I am, but I'm away from my computer a lot as I can't connect to either IRC or AIM at work.
Taking over the world, one game at a time. Currently TASing: Nothing
Posted: 5/5/2007 8:29 AM
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zidanax
Player (217)
Joined: 2/12/2006
Posts: 373
Location: Oregon
Oh, I'd forgotten about your presence at No-Intro. Keeping a table of how much the population grows during each construction phase sounds like a really good idea. That'll make it much easier to assess how well certain strategies work. I'll be sure to keep a table with those values for my TAS from now on.
Posted: 5/6/2007 8:05 AM
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Sir_VG
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Filmoa Mapping Route [URL=http://img296.imageshack.us/my.php?image=filmoasimulationcy9.jpg][/URL] Bloodpool Mapping Route [URL=http://img517.imageshack.us/my.php?image=bloodpoolsimulationyd3.jpg][/URL] Casandra Mapping Route [URL=http://img80.imageshack.us/my.php?image=casandrasimulationdp3.jpg][/URL] Aitos Mapping Route [URL=http://img147.imageshack.us/my.php?image=aitossimulationgs6.jpg][/URL] Marahna Mapping Route [URL=http://img296.imageshack.us/my.php?image=marahnasimulationcm5.jpg][/URL] Northwall Mapping Route [URL=http://img523.imageshack.us/my.php?image=northwallsimulationes4.jpg][/URL] I also went through my last recorded version of my normal game run and fully detailed population growths, noting areas where bonuses occurred (what areas the bonuses came from should be correct, based upon calculations). I also added a few notes at the bottom of the document. I would have had one less growth (landing a perfect 1900) in Marahna if I didn't have a house of 4 get blown up in Aitos. http://docs.google.com/Doc?id=ddbmd65h_07kf66j
Taking over the world, one game at a time. Currently TASing: Nothing
Posted: 5/6/2007 8:44 AM
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zidanax
Player (217)
Joined: 2/12/2006
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Location: Oregon
Nice, I'll look at those maps in more detail later. I've got an idea about how we may be able to reach the lairs in less time. The basic idea is that instead of only building towards one lair, we, in a sense, build towards two or more lairs at the same time, in the hope that less construction phases will be needed to seal all the lairs. I put together a quick demo so you can see what I'm talking about. It probably won't be useful due to the extra movement of the construction pointer involved, and the fact that we want to wait for the population to grow anyways, but I thought I'd throw out the idea in case it ends up being useful somewhere for some strange reason.
Posted: 5/6/2007 9:42 AM
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Sir_VG
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That's an interesting strategy. I'll give a full Filmoa simulation run going and just see how it pans out compared to my speedrun. You're right in that we'll have to wait for population growth, but I'll give my results when I can run it through. In a "console style" run through, your idea seemed to be slower. By the time I hit a 240+ population in Filmoa (getting both scrolls and magic, just like my speedrun), my time was 7:17. To do the same I had a time of 6:17. There may be some differences in that I did extra roads, but I'll keep playing around with the idea, but right now it seems to be slower in the end...at least at console speed. --- In a second attempt, building my roads to be exactly as if I did direct routes, I was actually slower yet! The population started out boosted (6, then 22) but by the end seemed inhibited. I hit the 200 mark exactly (normally I get 204), then only got to 230 then 260 (normally I go from 204 to 240). So it seems IMO that your strategy is only good for the first part of the layout. Reason being is that you can kill more than 7 monsters and not wind up with that house in the "fire zone", so you can boost the initial population faster. Outside of that, continually going back and forth ends up being quite a bit slower. In a test of my idea, I wound up at 6:01...however I was only at 222 for a population. Because I wasn't inhibited by how many monsters I could kill at the beginning, it allowed me to kill more which affected growth cycles. Growth 1: 6/6 Growth 2: 22/22 - 1st Lair Sealed Growth 3: 42/42 Growth 4: 66/66 - 2nd Lair Sealed Growth 5: 96/96 (Level 2) Growth 6: 126/126 - Scroll found in the woods Growth 7: 156/156 Growth 8: 186/186 - 3rd Lair Sealed Growth 9: 222/222 - 4th Lair Sealed If you can catch up on the 18 lost in another location (which should be easy to do), you can save time by cutting out one cycle. I'll try again later doing another little cheat to see if I can cut out even more time and/or affect the growth. http://dehacked.2y.net/microstorage.php/info/5454/SirVG-Strategy3.smv
Taking over the world, one game at a time. Currently TASing: Nothing
Posted: 5/6/2007 7:14 PM
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zidanax
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Hmm...before we make a final decision about where to use this strategy, I can see one more place where you might want to build an extra piece of road in order to reach a lair quicker. When going back down to reach the third lair, build a square of road to the left towards the river. As soon as the people learn to build bridges, they automatically build one over the river. Then you will be able to reach the last lair one phase sooner. That way, we would have one more phase where the people are building with the high civilization level houses. Haven't done a TAS-quality test to see if it would actually be worth it, but I suppose it's worth a try. I modified your SMV a bit so you can see what I'm talking about. Note that I didn't try to optimize my movements at all, this is just to show the concept. EDIT: or is that the "cheat" you were thinking of?
Posted: 5/6/2007 8:50 PM
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Sir_VG
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The one thing you have to remember is that we can't cheat TOO much. The population has to be over 200 (200 exact doesn't cut it) to get the scroll they find while fishing. ...ok, watched it. First, that wasn't the cheat I was thinking of. Second, using that route you'd have to get your one scroll in Filmoa from the woods and miss the fishing one. However the severe population loss will come back to haunt you later. The fishing scroll has to be gotten with a population over 200 and before Act II becomes available (your route will prevent that from happening). Personally, I don't think your edit to my route is a good decision. I tried another little strategy, but right now while it boosts the initial population by 4, by Growth 6 I'm down 4. -_-;; One thing about the up/down construction at the beginning is seems you have to go up first, then down, then back up. Going down then up seems to cause me to get that stupid house in the fire zone. --- From the Max Population guide, I found the RAM values for the 4 lairs. What's interesting is that they're suppose to be balanced (from what I read in the guide), but they're not. Filmoa (Initial #s) 7F96B8 - 200 (W White Dragon Lair) 7F96BA - 100 (E Bat Lair) 7F96BC - 100 (S Bat Lair) 7F96BE - 100 (NW Bat lair) Bloodpool (Initial #s) 7F96C0 - 100 (SW Red Devil Lair) 7F96C2 - 50 (NW Bat Lair) 7F96C4 - 90 (S White Dragon Lair) 7F96C6 - 90 (E White Dragon Lair) Casandra (Initial #s) 7F96C8 - 110 (NE White Dragon Lair) 7F96CA - 125 (N Red Devil Lair) 7F96CC - 125 (SE Red Devil Lair) 7F96CE - 90 (Central Bat Lair) Aitos (Initial #s) 7F96D0 - 80 (NW White Dragon Lair) 7F96D2 - 80 (Central Skull Lair) 7F96D4 - 80 (NE White Dragon Lair) 7F96D6 - 80 (SW White Dragon Lair) Marahna (Initial #s) 7F96D8 - 50 (NW Red Devil Lair) 7F96DA - 60 (SW Bat Lair) 7F96DC - 50 (E White Dragon Lair) 7F96DE - 50 (Central White Dragon Lair) Northwall (Initial #s) 7F96E0 - 30 (E Skull Lair) 7F96E2 - 30 (Central Skull Lair) 7F96E4 - 60 (S White Dragon Lair) 7F96E6 - 60 (NW Red Devil Lair) Note: These variables don't empty out if you seal a lair, only when you actually kill a monster. The counter will go down if you kill the monster of the lair even if the lair itself is sealed. You can earn yourself an extra soul to the counter by NOT killing the last standing monster for a lair until after the lair is sealed. Example: Filmoa has a soul count of 201. The last lair (WD) has 207 monsters. After sealing the lair, the soul counter is 152,1 (aka 408) with the last WD left alive. After killing that, the WD lair count goes down 1 (to 206) and the soul counter goes up 1 to 153,1 (aka 409). Population counter is the following: 7E0218/19 - Global Population 7E021A/1B - Local Population 7E021C/1D - Filmoa Population 7E021E/1F - Bloodpool Population 7E0220/21 - Casandra Population 7E0222/23 - Aitos Population 7E0224/25 - Marahna Population 7E0226/26 - Northwall Population Still looking to be playing with the soul counter: 7F9EFA/7F9EFB (To no surprise, this doesn't go up if the enemy goes off screen.) --- http://dehacked.2y.net/microstorage.php/info/5472/SirVG-Strategy4.smv Play-around with some soul watching. Make sure to have the following on: 7F96B8 - (W White Dragon Lair) 7F96BA - (E Bat Lair) 7F96BC - (S Bat Lair) 7F96BE - (NW Bat lair) 7F9EFA - Primary Soul Count 7F9EFB - Secondary Soul Count (each # = 256)
Taking over the world, one game at a time. Currently TASing: Nothing
Posted: 5/7/2007 8:58 AM
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zidanax
Player (217)
Joined: 2/12/2006
Posts: 373
Location: Oregon
... Weird, you seem to be right about having to go up then down past the shrine then up again to prevent the fire. I probably wouldn't have noticed something like that. Still works out nice though, because then I can kill as many enemies as I want up to the first lair(the fire incident didn't occur for me when I did so). After the 6th growth, I had 136 people, compared to 118 in my previous test. I might be able to make the growth even faster if I can manage to kill even more enemies moving up to the first lair (I killed 33 up to the first lair in my current attempt). So if nothing else, building in two directions will certainly be useful right at the beginning of Filmoa as you said. --- Looking at my growth table, I might be able to reach a population of 200 one phase sooner than before due to the extra growth up to the first lair, which would be quite nice.
Posted: 5/13/2007 8:32 PM
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OgreSlayeR
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Joined: 7/12/2004
Posts: 524
Location: USA
Any progress? TASing or planning?
Working on: Command and Conquer PSX Nod Campaign
Posted: 5/14/2007 6:40 PM
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zidanax
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Joined: 2/12/2006
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Location: Oregon
I've been away for a few days for my sister's graduation and wasn't able to get internet access until now. I won't be back for a few more days, and even then I may not do much TASing for a few days, because I have to catch up on homework.
Posted: 5/19/2007 6:10 AM
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zidanax
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Joined: 2/12/2006
Posts: 373
Location: Oregon
I now a (very) tentative plan for which magic scrolls I will retrieve. As previously stated, I won't get the scroll in the woods of Fillmore, because the clearing of bushes alone delays the construction timer by too much. Then there's the 150 or so frames where the people tell you that they found the scroll. I think I may not get the other scroll in Fillmore either. When I did a test, I got a delay of 662 frames for getting the scroll. This includes the delay to the construction timer when clearing the square of rocks (which appears to be a necessary action for getting the scroll), the time it takes for the people to tell you about the fire spell they found, and the time it takes for them to tell you about the scroll when they find it. I'm not sure I could make up for this lost time. I was able to save 24 frames with the fireball spell when fighting the Fillmore Act 2 boss. The savings fighting the Bloodpool Act 1 boss are negligible due to the fireball only doing 3 instead of 4 damage. Assuming I save the same number of frames from using one stardust on the Bloodpool Act 2 boss as I did in my Death Heim testing (278 frames), that leaves me with about 360 frames to save. I will pick up the scroll in Bloodpool because it's not very out of the way at all. And the thing is, I haven't been able to save a non-negligible amount of time with more than one scroll with any of the bosses from Kasandora to the end of Maranha. I will be able to save time with two scrolls with the two Northwall bosses, but by then I will have the Aitos scroll, because it's not very out of the way either. With 3 scrolls at Death Heim (the Northwall scroll isn't very out of the way, so that will be picked up), I wouldn't, according to my Death Heim tests, save more than 360 frames from adding a fourth scroll, namely, the Fillmore one. As for the Bloodpool scroll, I only got a delay of 343 frames when getting it, so it's one of the least out of the way scrolls in the game, with the possible exception of the Northwall scroll. So I will be picking it up. Kasandora is kind of complicated. First, I think I am going to skip both scrolls. To get one of the scrolls, you have to find the lost people in the desert. You then lose about 300 frames from the people in the shrine telling you about finding the lost people and discovering music. That isn't much, but if you want to take the shortest route to the last civilization-level-raising lair, you have to wash two more squares of sand than is strictly necessary to beat the sim, if you want to reach the lost people. It is possible to take a route that finds the lost people, seals both of the upper lairs, and washes the same number of sand squares as the other route in the process, but then it takes longer to reach the civilization-level-raising lair. As far as I can tell, you have to find the lost people in order to find the second scroll in Kasandora. Since finding the lost people will probably waste too much time, I'm not sure getting that scroll would be worth it either, due to the extra conversation and the extra cursor movement. I will probably get the scroll in Aitos. It doesn't take too long to get the extra scroll. Once I've built a road to the mountain, there is about 300 frames worth of conversation total. And no extra squares have to be cleared. Once I have two scrolls, I will be able to save some time in Northwall, and some time in Death Heim. The Northwall scroll is not very out of the way at all, since the people tell you about it in the process of sealing the lairs, so that will be retrieved. In total, only 3 scrolls would be retrieved. Let the criticism begin!
Posted: 5/19/2007 9:00 AM
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Sir_VG
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Kasandora is kind of complicated. First, I think I am going to skip both scrolls. To get one of the scrolls, you have to find the lost people in the desert. You then lose about 300 frames from the people in the shrine telling you about finding the lost people and discovering music. That isn't much, but if you want to take the shortest route to the last civilization-level-raising lair, you have to wash two more squares of sand than is strictly necessary to beat the sim, if you want to reach the lost people. It is possible to take a route that finds the lost people, seals both of the upper lairs, and washes the same number of sand squares as the other route in the process, but then it takes longer to reach the civilization-level-raising lair.
You can't get either scroll unless you find the man in the desert. While skipping him will save a lot of conversation (finding 2 scrolls, music and possibly about the exploration of the pyramid), make sure you build out properly then to make up the difference. The one boss I'm wondering if not getting many scrolls will hamper you on is Casandra Act I. But I'm sure you'll make it work with only 1 scroll. Act II's boss would be better with 2 as well...don't know. Aitos Act I doesn't matter. Act II can be beaten with 1 scroll and a couple swipes easily if it goes right (I've done it once). Marahna Act I doesn't matter and 2 should be plenty for Act II. Northwall Act I should be fine with 2 scrolls as well if you time them right. After thinking about OgreSlayeR's Bloodpool Act II 1-scroll strategy, I think I have an idea...not sure how well it'll work. Get the boss to spawn on the floor first for a couple swipes. Then use the scroll for the kill, as like his sample video. Possible?
Taking over the world, one game at a time. Currently TASing: Nothing
Posted: 5/19/2007 3:42 PM
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zidanax
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Joined: 2/12/2006
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Some good points. I'd forgotten that the setup when you enter the Cassandra Act 2 boss' room is slightly different, so I'll test there to see how much 1 scroll makes a difference, and how much 2 scrolls makes a difference in comparison to 1. And I will spend some time testing in Kasandora to see how much not getting the lost people will affect building patterns. As for Kasandora Act 1, well, watch this SMV. I'm able to attack the boss as fast as the sword will let me, then I just cast stardust once in order to not get hit by the pincers, and kill the boss in the process.
Posted: 5/19/2007 10:39 PM
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Sir_VG
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Looks like a good Casandra Act I boss strategy to me.
Taking over the world, one game at a time. Currently TASing: Nothing
Posted: 5/25/2007 5:42 PM
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zidanax
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Admittedly, part of the reason I said earlier that I wasn't going to restart this run in SNES9x 1.51 was that the pitch sounded off to me in comparison to the real SNES/SNES9x 1.43. It turned out that the pitch in the Windows port WAS off a bit. Nitsuja said just a little earlier that this is due to an option called FixFrequency being enabled by default. Turn off this option in the SNES9x config file, and SNES9x 1.51 sounds great. Apparently, FixFrequency is supposed to be a fix for some sound cards. Since I'm going to have to redo Fillmore anyway to make it optimal, I think I'm going to go ahead and restart this run in SNES9x 1.51. The sound effects in 1.51 are noticeably better, so that will hopefully make the sims a little more pleasant to the ears.
Posted: 5/25/2007 11:39 PM
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Sir_VG
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I haven't played around with 1.51 at all, so I can't make an honest comparison. But I might have to just to see for myself a comparison.
Taking over the world, one game at a time. Currently TASing: Nothing
Posted: 7/1/2007 6:57 PM
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zidanax
Player (217)
Joined: 2/12/2006
Posts: 373
Location: Oregon
Sorry it's been so long. I didn't feel very motivated for a while, but now I'm starting this TAS over in 1.51 like I said I would. It seems like some of the actions will take a different amount of time in this version of SNES9x (different timing?). Anyway, I'm posting because I've been going through Fillmore Act 1, and I need a little help. OgreSlayeR's TAS had a trick which I picked up where the hero can "catch" onto the wall and jump off from there. OgreSlayeR used this trick around frame 3290, and I used it in the old WIP of my run. But I'm having trouble executing the trick in SNES9x 1.51. Maybe I'm messing something up, but I'm wondering if any of you guys have managed to execute the trick in 1.51? EDIT: Nevermind, I managed to do it when I got rid of the fly and just started messing around. Hopefully I can execute the trick with the fly present...
Posted: 7/1/2007 11:31 PM
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zidanax
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OK, I've completed up to the end of Fillmore Act 1. WIP here 12 frames saved from power on to the end of Fillmore Act 1, though some of that may(or may not) be due to timing changes.
Posted: 7/3/2007 8:08 PM
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Sir_VG
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Great work. Can't wait to see what's cooked up for perfect simulation work. I've been playing around more with 100% gameplay, which is a big pain in the rear. I'll see what I can learn from doing that that might help you out. --- On a sidenote, after having finally sat down, and finally beaten the Japanese version of ActRaiser, I bring the following comparison into this discussion. Do you want to continue doing the US version (which is considerably faster) or move over to the Japanese version (which is considerably harder)? Likely there's about 1/2 time difference between the two, but some of the bosses are REALLY nasty if you play the Japanese version (especially Marana Act I). I'm thinking it's probably appropiate to keep doing the normal game in English (thus the US version) and if the extra mode is done, do it with the Japanese Special mode, showing off the harder gameplay. ...assuming it doesn't drive you insane before you finish it.
Taking over the world, one game at a time. Currently TASing: Nothing
Posted: 7/4/2007 10:40 PM
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OgreSlayeR
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Joined: 7/12/2004
Posts: 524
Location: USA
I'm glad you've started to work on this again. I've seemed to get my motivation for TASing back now as well now that it looks like we'll have an accepted SMS emulator. On the topic of the Japanese version, it is indeed A LOT harder than the US version. It is also WAY slower especially in the Sims. The US version improved the Sims definitely at least as far as speed goes. If you are TASing the normal mode you should stick with the US version. Japanese prof mode might be interesting though.
Working on: Command and Conquer PSX Nod Campaign
Posted: 7/5/2007 1:35 AM
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Sir_VG
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From my playthroughs, things to note if doing Actraiser Special on the Japanese version: 1 - Spikes are instant kill (if vulnerable). This does cut out a few shortcuts, as well as makes a few other routes more tretcherous (like Filmoa Act II's lower route at the start. 2 - The floating skulls in Aitos Act I can't be destroyed with your sword. 3 - The platforms in Bloodpool Act I boss fight are laid out different. 4 - Casandra Act I and II's boss fights are different. The Antlion in Act I is considerably faster and spews more rocks. The Pharoah in Act II's smaller arrow spewing heads don't fire a shot an disappear...they stay and can fire very rapidly. This will REALLY come into play in Death Heim. 5 - Marana Act I's boss is much harder, as the vulnerable spot goes in and out quickly. The floating orbs are harder to destroy too, as their vines stay more in a horizontal line than vertical. 6 - Filmoa Act I's level layout is noticably different, mainly at the start, just after the restart point, and around the big tree. 7 - In a few spots, there are additional flying enemies. Aitos Act II's 2nd section, and Northwall Act I's 3rd section (just after the ice sled) are a couple pesty areas. 8 - A few enemies do more damage. The worst is the flames just before Aitos Act II, which do 4 points of damage ON NORMAL. I can't imagine what they do on Special. 9 - A number of full apples have either been removed, repositioned, or changed to half-apples. I'm sure there's probably more things I'm missing that would apply, but that's just some general info that I thought I'd point out from my playing.
Taking over the world, one game at a time. Currently TASing: Nothing
Posted: 7/13/2007 5:55 AM
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zidanax
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Joined: 2/12/2006
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Location: Oregon
Haven't been doing much lately, part of that being frustration from the following, maybe you guys could help me out: I'm having some trouble with the first part of Fillmore. I've gotten to the point where I can have 15 souls on the counter by the beginning of the first construction phase. But having 16 would be really nice, because then I could build 4 structures in the first phase instead of 3. I'm really close to 16 right now, but I haven't quite managed it. Here's my WIP. Suggestions?
Posted: 7/14/2007 1:07 AM
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Sir_VG
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Well, it's tough to find a spot to trim, because you just have to allow for spawn time. The only suggestion I have is instead of moving up-left after you use lightning, move straight up instead, then turn to fire at the upper-left bat. I don't know if it'll make a difference, but you've already made a good start though.
Taking over the world, one game at a time. Currently TASing: Nothing
Posted: 7/14/2007 6:40 AM
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zidanax
Player (217)
Joined: 2/12/2006
Posts: 373
Location: Oregon
GOT IT! I was kind of lucky with that last bat coming up right next to the shrine, but I nevertheless made an interesting discovery that's used in this WIP: When trying to hit the bats in the East lair as soon as they come out, I can be somewhat closer to the top and still get them immediately. To be precise, I was using the Y position of 140 before, but it turns out that I can be as high as 128 and still hit the bat as soon as it comes out. This means that I didn't have to travel as much vertically between the West and East lairs. WIP EDIT: whoops, I didn't notice that managing to get 16 souls causes a house to be built on the special spot that causes a fire later. Considering that when building a road, going up then down past the shrine then up again prevented building a house in that special spot, perhaps taking the normal route of down then up might prevent it? It's worth a try, I guess. EDIT #2: well, that didn't work out, so I went back to my previous WIP and delayed hitting the bat that would've earned me the 16th soul just long enough so that it didn't so before the first construction phase. Thanks to that (and perhaps also to more optimized killing of bats), I was able to barely get 6 houses in the second construction phase instead of 5, so I'm satisfied. EDIT #3: except that that causes fires too. AAAAAARRRGGHHH!
Posted: 7/15/2007 12:25 AM
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Sir_VG
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Well, there's a couple ways you can go about it right now. 1 - Continue on with the house in its doomsday location and be ready for fire when it arrives. 2 - Deal with a smaller soul count. BTW, out of curiosity, why do you build the road up, down, then back up? Why not down first then back up?
Taking over the world, one game at a time. Currently TASing: Nothing
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