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Posted: 10/19/2009 6:30 PM
(Edited: 10/19/2009 6:34 PM)
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zidanax
Player (217)
Joined: 2/12/2006
Posts: 373
Location: Oregon
Yes, Marahna Act 2 can be painful, but the main part of it isn't when TASing. It's trying to optimize the boss fight that's difficult when TASing. You don't really get anything from helping out the man in Aitos apart from the woman's (and dying man's) thanks. Or at least I don't recall getting anything we would want in our run. Yes I know it's cold-hearted. We didn't bother to look for the man in the desert in Kasandora, and now this. At least people who hadn't played this game before wouldn't notice since they can't read the messages so quickly. EDIT: wow, we posted within a few seconds of each other.
Posted: 10/19/2009 6:30 PM
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dunnius
Active player (428)
Joined: 9/7/2007
Posts: 329
Computer TASer of 2015 Computer TAS of 2015
The reason for letting the guy die without getting rained on (he dies no matter what) is that costs too many frames to cause the rain. The difference is that it changes the message to give thanks for being compassionate. I wonder if there is another difference that I couldn't find. It doesn't modify the soul counter and it doesn't change the population growth. However, it is possible that it could affect the timing of Aitos' messages before the final lair is sealed. I didn't see a difference when I tested it, but it could be that the lairs are sealed very quickly and any timing change is negated. Edit: LOL at the 9 second difference in the posting times. If that were TAsed it would have been at the same time.
Posted: 10/20/2009 2:23 AM
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OgreSlayeR
Former player
Joined: 7/12/2004
Posts: 524
Location: USA
You might want to test which path is the faster of the two in Maranha Act 2. I didn't really test it when I did my TAS. It seemed like the path I did was the faster of the two.
Working on: Command and Conquer PSX Nod Campaign
Posted: 10/20/2009 4:23 AM
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zidanax
Player (217)
Joined: 2/12/2006
Posts: 373
Location: Oregon
I did test it: going to the left is faster. Take a look at the Marahna Act 2 Map here. The 3 heads are quicker to get past than the spiked platforms. Also, there's less stuff you have to hit yourself on to get past. If you take the right path, you end up having to move past some things without getting hit otherwise you'll die (and getting hit is almost always the quickest way to get past things). Also, the pit on the left side is quicker to fall down because there's left platforms next to the wall.
Posted: 10/20/2009 5:13 AM
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Sir_VG
He/Him
Player (40)
Joined: 10/9/2004
Posts: 1913
Location: Floating Tower
Kofiman wrote:
Impressive.. but Marahna Act 2 is a painful, painful stage. I wouldn't mind story-related subtitles. Help fill in some waiting times. Man, it's cold leaving that guy to die in Aitos. What happens when you rain on him?
He dies anyways, but he dies happy that his master cried for him.
Taking over the world, one game at a time. Currently TASing: Nothing
Posted: 10/20/2009 8:00 PM
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Kofiman
Joined: 4/30/2008
Posts: 39
Oh good, zidan, there's just so much stuff in that stage I was wondering if you were going to run out of health.
Posted: 10/21/2009 4:24 AM
(Edited: 10/22/2009 4:42 AM)
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zidanax
Player (217)
Joined: 2/12/2006
Posts: 373
Location: Oregon
I'll show you guys what I have for Marahna Act 2: http://dehacked.2y.net/microstorage.php/info/283700763/ActRaiser_%28U%29_Zidanax_and_Dunnius_Marahna_Act_2_Done.smv So far, I've managed to shave off 17 frames up to the boss. The boss fight is 47 frames less than in my previous WIP. I think my lua script may have helped some with that. Those wait periods you see are what my script came up with when trying to maximize damage per cast. I suppose it's possible there's a more efficient way to use the Stardust, but it sure won't be easy to find. EDIT: although I did just save 9 frames on the part after the stardust.
Posted: 10/22/2009 4:21 AM
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OgreSlayeR
Former player
Joined: 7/12/2004
Posts: 524
Location: USA
Does the boss take more hits with stardust when he drops to the ground? If so you could possibly manipulate him to keep doing that.
Working on: Command and Conquer PSX Nod Campaign
Posted: 10/22/2009 4:47 AM
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zidanax
Player (217)
Joined: 2/12/2006
Posts: 373
Location: Oregon
I checked for that, but for some reason the little explosions that do so much damage to other bosses don't seem to hurt this one.
Posted: 10/22/2009 5:48 AM
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OgreSlayeR
Former player
Joined: 7/12/2004
Posts: 524
Location: USA
http://dehacked.2y.net/microstorage.php/info/341763626/bosstest.smv I fooled around and made a fairly unoptimized test starting from your movie, so the randomness should be the same. I managed to save a time unit comparing to yours and it can be optimized further. This might be the better strategy.
Working on: Command and Conquer PSX Nod Campaign
Posted: 10/22/2009 8:04 PM
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zidanax
Player (217)
Joined: 2/12/2006
Posts: 373
Location: Oregon
Actually, your attempt wasn't bad at all. I only managed to save 7 frames off your attempt. http://dehacked.2y.net/microstorage.php/info/384277651/ActRaiser_%28U%29_Zidanax_and_Dunnius_Marahna_Act_2_Done.smv
Posted: 10/22/2009 10:37 PM
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OgreSlayeR
Former player
Joined: 7/12/2004
Posts: 524
Location: USA
That's probably a keeper. I don't see it being any faster unless you can get better stardust casts somehow. I wonder how much trouble you will have with the Death Heim re-fights. You will only have like 3 scrolls to work with. I guess when you re-fight this boss you might be able to manipulate him to drop down and just slash away and save the magic for bosses that take extra from it.
Working on: Command and Conquer PSX Nod Campaign
Posted: 10/22/2009 10:52 PM
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zidanax
Player (217)
Joined: 2/12/2006
Posts: 373
Location: Oregon
Yeah, I'll probably use the stardust on other bosses in Death Heim. On another note, Death Heim may take a while since the last time I tested the time saved by stardust on each boss, I didn't have lua scripting. EDIT: Here's Northwall Act 1 completed. http://dehacked.2y.net/microstorage.php/info/1953132213/ActRaiser_%28U%29_Zidanax_and_Dunnius_Northwall_Act1_Done.smv I saved 25 frames up to the boss. I also got a scroll since it was right in my path anyway. Thanks to the third scroll and lua I was able to beat the boss 135 frames faster than in Ogreslayer's run. Time from boss death to crystallization is 3 frames faster than in my WIP.
Posted: 10/23/2009 7:45 PM
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OgreSlayeR
Former player
Joined: 7/12/2004
Posts: 524
Location: USA
http://dehacked.2y.net/microstorage.php/get/948105842/death%20heimtest.smv I was just playing around in Death Heim and I found a small trick that may be useful. You can jump or make an action before you completely teleport after each boss. You can see me use it against the Blood Pool boss and the Aitos boss. I was able to like instantly get on the platforms. Your Northwall Act 1 looked good.
Working on: Command and Conquer PSX Nod Campaign
Posted: 10/26/2009 7:44 PM
(Edited: 10/26/2009 9:22 PM)
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zidanax
Player (217)
Joined: 2/12/2006
Posts: 373
Location: Oregon
Dunnius: Would you be willing to send me the things you thought of subtitling, then maybe I could try to incorporate them into FatRatKnight's script? Or if you're almost done with the Northwall sim, then maybe the other way around while I finish the run. EDIT: Nice find, OgreSlayeR. Looks really funny seeing God move up that fast.
Posted: 10/26/2009 8:47 PM
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dunnius
Active player (428)
Joined: 9/7/2007
Posts: 329
Computer TASer of 2015 Computer TAS of 2015
The Northwall simulation is now complete. http://dehacked.2y.net/microstorage.php/info/1911308771/ActRaiser_%28U%29_Zidanax_and_Dunnius_Northwall_sim_done.smv I'll work on the simulation subtitles now. Can you send me the latest lua script version?
Posted: 10/26/2009 9:26 PM
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zidanax
Player (217)
Joined: 2/12/2006
Posts: 373
Location: Oregon
FatRatKnight created a separate thread in the Tool-Assisted Laboratory forum. That has the latest version of the script :). If you're talking about subtitles I came up with, here are some: http://pastey.net/127175 Incomplete, and as mentioned in the text, there are some I don't think we'll use. There may be some others we shouldn't use either. EDIT: yes, I'm intentionally making these subs public. I think once we've done the subs we'll want to get feedback on things like timing and content anyhow. EDIT #2: OK, coming in for the home stretch, here's Northwall Act 2: http://dehacked.2y.net/microstorage.php/info/1435242060/ActRaiser_%28U%29_Zidanax_and_Dunnius_Northwall_Act_2_Done.smv Saved 7 frames up to the boss over my previous WIP, and several hundred frames on the boss. I managed to kill the boss the second time he swoops down instead of the third like on OgreSlayeR's. See anything that could be improved?
Posted: 10/27/2009 4:42 AM
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Sir_VG
He/Him
Player (40)
Joined: 10/9/2004
Posts: 1913
Location: Floating Tower
Looks good. Now get Death heim done and let's go home. :) Subtitles look good overall too. It'll be nice to help give people a bit of the REAL truth to Actraiser.
Taking over the world, one game at a time. Currently TASing: Nothing
Posted: 10/28/2009 1:25 AM
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OgreSlayeR
Former player
Joined: 7/12/2004
Posts: 524
Location: USA
Wow, so it's going to be well under an hour. I'm guessing about 53-54 final time.
Working on: Command and Conquer PSX Nod Campaign
Posted: 10/28/2009 4:57 AM
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zidanax
Player (217)
Joined: 2/12/2006
Posts: 373
Location: Oregon
It's done! But before we submit it, I want you guys to look at Death Heim and see if you notice any possible improvements. Also, we'll want the subtitles finished and polished before we finally submit. When the subtitles are done, see if the timing and content are good, text placement is reasonable, etc. Dunnius and I are kind of biased since we already know about the stuff in the subtitles, etc. So we may make (a lot of) mistakes and need outsiders to tell us whether things like the timing are good. Here it is: http://dehacked.2y.net/microstorage.php/info/1613152846/ActRaiser_%28U%29_Zidanax_and_Dunnius.smv EDIT: Just a note that it ended up being a 745 frame improvement overall in Death Heim. Both phases of Tanzra were slightly faster. The Fillmore boss was much faster. The Marahna and Northwall bosses were both faster. The other three bosses were somewhat slower. It seems there was generally 9 frames or so more lag between each boss. Probably a result of using SNES9x 1.51. It doesn't really matter, since it only adds up to a little less than a second. EDIT #2: I forgot to enable Volume Envelope Height Reading when I started this SMV. But interestingly enough when I force it to enabled by hex editing the SMV, the entire run still syncs. Since Volume Envelope Height Reading improves sound effects in some games, maybe we should submit the run with it enabled.
Posted: 10/28/2009 4:32 PM
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OgreSlayeR
Former player
Joined: 7/12/2004
Posts: 524
Location: USA
Looks good, but it seems you lose the most time against the Snake boss. I wonder if be worth it to not use the magic against the Fillmore and Bloodpool boss and use it against him. The magic used on the Blood Pool boss seems the most wasted I think. The magic used on the Fillmore boss did destroy him very quickly though.
Working on: Command and Conquer PSX Nod Campaign
Posted: 10/28/2009 5:25 PM
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zidanax
Player (217)
Joined: 2/12/2006
Posts: 373
Location: Oregon
The problem with the Bloodpool boss is that if I don't cast that stardust his second spawn is on the ground, then he disappears rather quickly, then he spawns on the third level, where I can't get in many hits. Casting Stardust can, depending on when (and I think where) I cast it change where the boss will spawn to somewhere else. I probably should still use magic against the Fillmore boss because I managed to save a full 477 frames over your no-star attempt. I think I'll try, however, seeing how things go if I use the last stardust on the Marahna boss instead of the Kasandora boss.
Posted: 10/28/2009 5:45 PM
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Sir_VG
He/Him
Player (40)
Joined: 10/9/2004
Posts: 1913
Location: Floating Tower
Initially, I was gonna question the choice in magic usage, especially on Zeppelin Wolf, since you can very easily get him in 2 rounds straight out attacking. But if the time saved there is more then using it on Arctic Wyvern, then go for it. So at about 54 minutes, you've beaten me by 13 minutes. Congrats. You've taken away my chance to say "I've beaten a TAS". It was a good 2 years, but it's nice to see ActRaiser get the TAS-style demolishing it deserves. Now you guys just need to do Special Mode on the Japanese version, since it's harder then the US one.
Taking over the world, one game at a time. Currently TASing: Nothing
Posted: 10/28/2009 10:29 PM
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zidanax
Player (217)
Joined: 2/12/2006
Posts: 373
Location: Oregon
When I checked to see whether using the last scroll on the Marahna boss would be faster, it did save 25 frames, but I couldn't manipulate the Northwall Boss to come straight down rather than swoop down. So I decided I might as well try using the last scroll on the Northwall boss instead. Well what do you know, the boss gave me a perfect pattern for using a scroll: first comes straight down then swoops down the second time. I was able to kill the Northwall boss in a little less than half the time it took in OgreSlayeR's run. Overall, the run is now 105 frames less, bringing it to a little under 54 minutes and 50 seconds. http://dehacked.2y.net/microstorage.php/info/1320456877/ActRaiser_%28U%29_Zidanax_and_Dunnius.smv EDIT: oh, and Volume Envelope Height Reading is now on in the SMV.
Posted: 10/28/2009 10:43 PM
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DarkKobold
Skilled player (1652)
Joined: 11/15/2004
Posts: 2202
Location: Killjoy
Arcade TASer of 2010 PCE TASer of 2010 Arcade TAS of 2010 Lucky TAS of 2009 Lucky TAS of 2007
I've silently watched most of the WIPs up to this point. Impressive improvement, and I'm happy to see the amount of work that went into it. I've yet to watch this final movie, and I think I'll wait to submission time, and watch the movie from the start again.
Sage advice from a friend of Jim: So put your tinfoil hat back in the closet, open your eyes to the truth, and realize that the government is in fact causing austismal cancer with it's 9/11 fluoride vaccinations of your water supply.
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