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moozooh wrote:
(like you usually only need to be moving for 1-2 frames to successfully apply doppler shift to missile's acceleration; what happens inbetween is irrelevant).
I didn't know that there needs to be 2 frames at some points, maybe that's the reason why CPadolf is having problems? Holding 1 frame forward and then releasing for one frame doesn't shift the missile forward enough and that's why Phantoon disappears? Has to press forward for 2 frames at some points?
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I don't remember the exact mechanism, but I have a feeling that Samus needs to be moving at a certain (0.24576 px/f?) speed at the moment of shooting to influence the projectile's acceleration. I usually test this each time separately, it doesn't take much time to determine the optimal button pressings over the span of 2-4 frames and then repeat them accordingly.
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Thanks, this information helped me finish phantoon in 3 minutes after I read it :P EDIT: or so I though, I forgot one missile refill, but now that I've gotten that I for some reason can't get the last missile and supermissile in, no matter what... EDIT2: NOOOO delaying the first missile (or even having more or less missiles left after the end of the battle) does NOT change the drops, at least it sure as hell doesn't for me.
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Heh CPadolf, Phantoon still causing you trouble? :P Just work at it I'm sure that with your TAS skills you'll get it done with honor. I'm waiting for your run a lot! Talking about that I was bored and checked some random stuff on the forum, moozooh you're waiting for my PAL SS any% run? Haha I never knew I got on that list of yours, I'm honored :)The run is on a break now because of that broken controller, but I bet that I'll get it done this year. I'm still practicing though, badly need to break the 38 min limit first. (at least)
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Yeah, on a related note, I remember that I have planned to make a reference run for you, but it didn't quite worked out as I hoped. It was when I got to Norfair, I suddenly realized it desynced back at Torizo (yes, I did it on Snes9x 1.51 for obvious reasons). Since all the tricks had to be performed in realtime (I decided not to use slowdown except in situations where the keyboard was an obvious obstacle), I had to use a lot of rerecords and thus couldn't avoid the desyncs. So, unless/until rerecording is fixed in 1.51, I won't be able to devote my time to it.
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I actually did a test run for both NTSC and PAL, though didn't record it unfortunately, I used the same tricks in both runs except a few differences ofcourse like torizo skip, all in all I think that those runs where a bit better then you possibly can do on console since I used slowdowns and such. So I would say that a "perfect" console run would be at least 30 seconds slower. The times I got was NTSC 00:30 (High) PAL 00:34 (Low) Anyways, I'm getting really sick and tired with phantoon. For the fourth time I defeated him on a different frame and got the same refills, (just to be sure they where unchangeable I did it 4 times with first optimal the 1 frame dealy then 5 frame delay then 10 frame delay) This means that for every time the refills are bad I will have to wait 10-20 frames at the door for the right pattern... thats not good at all... EDIT: Just to be sure(or else I will feel really stupid) does it have to be the absolute first hit on him that has to be delayed or does the second one work to? If it has to be the first I will hang myself for my mistake, luckily my belt won't hold though so I will get away with some mild neck injuries... come to think of it I will hang myself in any case... poor me.
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moozooh wrote:
Yeah, on a related note, I remember that I have planned to make a reference run for you, but it didn't quite worked out as I hoped. It was when I got to Norfair, I suddenly realized it desynced back at Torizo (yes, I did it on Snes9x 1.51 for obvious reasons). Since all the tricks had to be performed in realtime (I decided not to use slowdown except in situations where the keyboard was an obvious obstacle), I had to use a lot of rerecords and thus couldn't avoid the desyncs. So, unless/until rerecording is fixed in 1.51, I won't be able to devote my time to it.
Man, I really don't get what problems you have with v1.43+. It really is a great emulator with one of the best movie recording engines today. Waiting for v1.51 to be fixed is just stupid, since this will surely take a good while until it's done. I'm sure the missing WIP1 timing and the many new emulation factors that influence the movie recording engine won't be fixed easily anytime soon. Just do that run on v1.43, and save yourself alot of work and frustration that way. Cpadolf: Yeah, it's very hard to manipulate many different Phantoons refills, no matter what you do in the fight. If you can't get it any other way, just go to the menu and back. It will cost you some realtime though, but in-game time will stay the same. Otherwise you will just be forced to slow down a bit in the next rooms to compensate Phantoons lacking refills.
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Saturn wrote:
Man, I really don't get what problems you have with v1.43+.
I was making a run aimed to be a reference for console, and 1.43 doesn't behave fully like console. It's forgivable for a TAS since most of the difference between it and unassisted run comes from using tools, so it's not like it would be comparable anyway. There are differences in timing that might affect boss strategies (Phantoon or Draygon for instance; it's been already confirmed that conditions are not the same between 1.43 and 1.51), or something like that. What would be the point of a reference that behaves differently from what it's actually supposed to reference? If I could, I'd do it on bsnes, since it's by far the most accurate SNES emulator in existence (followed by ZSNES, which has even worse desync issues and thus is out of question).
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moozooh wrote:
There are differences in timing that might affect boss strategies (Phantoon or Draygon for instance; it's been already confirmed that conditions are not the same between 1.43 and 1.51), or something like that.
There are no differences at any bosses between them. The only difference is the loading time, which just may make the bosses to use a different set of move-patterns at beginning. This is not a issue though, since this patterns can't be affected on console runs anyway. All actions that happen in the rooms are still the same, and all bosses behave absolutely the same as well, since "in-room" emulation and all the physics were always 100% correct, even on v1.43, as said before. And in my quick TAS test on 1.51 I couldn't get any, even slightest differences in ingame time when passing the rooms, which just proves the fact.
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I once again repeat that it isn't about ingame time or loading or anything else like that, it's about differences in timing and behaviour that are clearly observable. If you don't believe me, open my 1.51 Draygon battle and watch the turrets shooting about TWICE as fast as on 1.43. Sounds like not-really-100% correct emulation from one of them, huh? What about Ridley with his rain of fireballs whose degree of intensity on 1.43 isn't even close to that on 1.51? You're still going to tell me that there's no difference and it's all about entering rooms on different frames?
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Cpadolf, It should not really be so much about delaying any particular hit. The item refills are generated based on when he dies. If you delay the first hit by 10 frames he dies 10 frames later and thus gives different drops. If you delay the final hit 10 frames, he dies 10 frames later and gives the same refills as if you had delayed the first hit. If you go to the pause menu, he dies much much later and that too gives different refills. From my recollection, I think the delay has to be more than a single frame.
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It looks like I will have to delay by using the start menu, sadly. Delaying the first missile did not work even when I delayed by ~10 frames and if I can't delay it for much longer or he will come to close, I don't care much that the realtime will go up by several seconds, what bothers me is that this disturbes the continuity in the run and is the only pause screen in the run.
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AFAIK, the delay of the first Missile must be bigger than 10 frames in order to let Phantoon die later, since he doesn't seem to do so every frame, but only in this 10-20 frame intervals (same for Botwoon btw). moozooh: This is indeed something weird you just said. I watched your parts and see what you mean. However I still have my doubts that it's because of the emulator differences. I just can't imagine why it would be like that, since there shouldn't be a reason for this when the general room emulation is same. While TAS testing on 1.51, I was often in rooms with various enemies and often took a knockback of them, and they always acted like they did on 1.43 with absolutely no exceptions. So I rather think it just depends on your input, and that you were just unlucky to trigger this aggressive patterns at Draygons and Ridleys. Maybe Nach or nitsuja could tell more about this mystery, since they both were involved in their developement.
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After some hard work, I figured out a way into tourian with the x-ray scope and without the crystal flash... behold: http://dehacked.2y.net/microstorage.php/info/1393743060/tourianentry.smv Now an 8% run is possible!! I will post a new route later today.
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Great find, now what items are needed? Morphball, Missile, Supermissile, Bomb, Powerbomb, X-ray. thats 6%, what else is needed?
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Very nice abuse of the zig-zag tech, which requires Speed Booster in order to work though. Well done hero. Hmm 8%? I thought it's less: 1x Morphball 1x Bombs 1x Missiles 1x Super Missiles 1x Power Bombs 1x X-Ray Scope 1x Speed Booster It's 7%, or did I forgot something? EDIT: Simu-post
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Energy tank to get Speed Booster varialess, which makes it 8% in total.
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Edit: I think I understand now: It's my avatar, isn't it? It makes me look angry.
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Okay I have ironed out the details for the "kejardon of the day" run. here is the map It seems as though Samus only needed to be 1 pixel over more and this could be done without the speed booster. A pixel position of 31 works, while a 32 causes her head to hit the ceiling. If someone could get this done without the speed booster, a 6%, super short run would be possible. As for the run itself, the map should be pretty much self explanatory. A stop by the energy refill station may be used twice. Once on the way to norfair and once on the way back. A full amount of health will allow for a short charge shinespark after collecting the x-ray and this would eliminate a shitload of waiting for the enemies to come into range. Since samus will have almost full stats when entering tourian, the odds of getting power bomb drops become even more likely. A visit to Samus' ship may be in order, but that will require some testing. Also the route that is going to be used from red brinstar to tourian should be tested as well. Without spacejump, the tourian entry becomes slightly different. Please look at this SMV for a demonstration of how it will be done in an actual run. here
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On a completely unrelated matter, I have been diligently working on the single greatest sequence break to ever grace the game of super metroid. I speak none other than about the maridia top green gate entrance. For years man has attempted to conquer this beast, now I believe we are closer than ever. I think if we put our minds to it we can enter the gate in from the opposite side. This would save easily 30 seconds alone. I have figured out that if Samus is standing is exactly the correct spot, a super missile will fly straight through the gate. Not only that, but if samus starts to move forward the Super Missile will actually stop and explode in mid flight on the opposite side of the gate. The only variable left that needs to be figured out is the height of the missile shot. If the missile is too high it hits the top block, too low and it misses the green button. Here is what we are currently looking at. I think if we put our minds to it we may just be able to open that damn gate.
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And if you indeed manage to do this, would it be implemented in your run? The only real use I find for it would be in terris where it would save much time after WS since maridia is your next destination, or am I missing something very obvious (like usual)
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The gate will stay closed, I fear. The reason is this block: Without it you could easily open the gate from the other side. Otherwise you have to pass 2 blocks (the solid and the gate block) in order to open it, which is too much to be possible, no matter what you do. On the other hand it's indeed weird why the Super explodes in midair, but that is irrelevant in the end. There is no way to shot slightly below the solid block, pass the gate, and still hit the green switch, because they are on the same height, and thus if you miss the solid block you will miss it as well, no matter where the Super would explode on the other side. Only thing that counts is the height, not the blast radius of it, even though it looks close and possible. For information, I actually tested this alot before entering Maridia in my RBO run around a year ago, since even though it's a detour from Norfair, it would still be faster because of avoiding of the slow water moves in the first rooms. I talked with catnap and Kejardon about this, and they both said it's impossible with that block before it. And I think when Kej says something about SM, then it's true, since he knows the mechanics of the game like no other.
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Cpadolf: The trick would apply to any in-game oriented run. It would make speed booster early a must. It would also make a 22 minute run much more likely. Saturn: Thanks for the explanation. I am working on a way of bypassing the block that you have circled there. I believe that a perfectly timed shinespark can allow a super missile to not only pass through the block, but also make contact with the green button on the other side. It will require much testing though.
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Crap, I will have to go with 146 hp after phantoon and hope for many health refills in the pre spike room. The reason, well to even get this much energy I had to enter the start menu, and luckily I only had to enter it for the shortest possible time but I tried every possible refill combination over the span of ~300 frames without anything better... seriously thats bad. At least I got 5 pb's 2 supers and 8(+4) missiles (actually took 3pb's 2 supers 10 missiles) And after the escape (for me it was faster to use a pb then mockball for several reasons) I'm ~33 seconds ahead of heros old TAS. Hero: If you actually get this to work and I'll have to restart from redbrinstar, what route should be the best. Redbrinstar-Kraid-Varia-Speedbooster-Wave-Hijump. Redbrinstar-Speedbooster-Wave-Hijump.(Leave Kraid till after plasma) Redbrinstar-Hijump-Speedbooster-Wave.(Leave Kraid till after plasma)
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If I ever got it to work, the ideal route would be Redbrinstar-Kraid-Varia-Speedbooster-Wave-Hijump. Doing norfair varialess would cost much more time than you would gain from doing kraid late. Refilling at the bug pipe can be a lengthy process, and doing kraid early is only about 6 seconds slower than doing him late. The only run that should do norfair without the varia is the 100% tas, because the slowdown at the bug pipe is much less than the backtrack to collect the kraid missile pack. If the green gate were ever opened, it would allow access to the top of maridia and thus removing the glass braking cut scene, and the entire descent down the red brinstar shaft. Fully optimized, I see this as a solid 25-30 second timesaver. It might actually be more, because you have to consider how much time is saved by having the speed booster and the wave beam in WS. I wouldn't worry too much though, it seems like it may be impossible to open the green gate. I will spend a couple more days on it, and I urge others to do the same. Here is a movie with the sinespark already charged, in case anyone else wants to try thier luck
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Hero, as said, you can't hit the switch by shooting below the solid block in any case (which is what you do in your movie). To get a chance you MUST get the Super through both blocks. And this is something that is pretty much impossible, at least at this small room.
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