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Posted: 5/27/2007 4:17 AM
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moozooh
Senior Moderator
Joined: 8/4/2005
Posts: 5777
Location: Away
There are numerous abilities that are directly related or interconnected but have notably different applications or ways to trigger them. Such things as animation lock, elevator hop, corner jump (or, say, passing through platforms/robots/zebetites) are all about the same thing, really, but the main point about them is that you'll likely not be able to predict the existence of each of those tricks logically even if knowing about the others. Besides, the differences in application justify the redundancy. Waterball as an ability is merely a special case of exploiting the underwater physics to have the benefits of both the conserved horizontal speed and an exceptionally high bounce. I'd even say that the bounce itself is not as important as the ability to keep the speed while underwater so that you will keep it even if you hop onto the dry surface — you'll see what I'm talking about if you try to combine waterball with mock-springballing. [EDIT] Ok, here's a demo for you. Sometimes I feel sad that Super Metroid simply doesn't have spacious enough rooms to use things like this. :\
Warp wrote:
Edit: I think I understand now: It's my avatar, isn't it? It makes me look angry.
Posted: 5/27/2007 4:38 AM
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kwinse
Joined: 5/13/2006
Posts: 283
Well, I guess that makes sense on why it has its own section. And I didn't need the .smv demonstration, the text was clear enough. Good job on making it (and the rest of your contributions to that page) though. ^^
<Zurreco> if so called professional players cant adapt to every playing field, theyre obviously not that great
Posted: 5/27/2007 5:37 AM
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hero_of_the_day
Player (89)
Joined: 11/14/2005
Posts: 1058
Location: United States
I will make some more demos, and I am also going to post the damage data for every single attack that samus has. I haven't seen any reliable source that accurately states all the damage info, so using memory watch I should be able to compile a perfect list. Did anyone here know that if you hold Y and then press the select button, the item selected on the status bar will blink instead of being solid green. Using the item a single time will automatically unselect it. Though I don't see any use for this in a speed run, it might be interesting to know.
They're off to find the hero of the day...
Posted: 5/27/2007 9:26 AM
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Saturn
Player (206)
Joined: 2/18/2005
Posts: 1451
Very nice work on the Super Metroid Tricks page, moozooh. Providing smv demos to almost every trick is a great idea. I'm also willing to contribute some of them if it's required. For now I can suggest the Temporary Blue Suit glitch demo to get the Maridia mainstreet Missile in a NBMB run, since I think it's a interesting glitch, but didn't see it mentioned anywhere in the Tricks Page yet: http://dehacked.2y.net/microstorage.php/info/2753/Temporary_Blue_Suit.smv Hero, here is the damage list that Kejardon provided once: 0. Normal beam : 10 1. Wave beam : 25 2. Ice beam : 15 3. Ice/Wave beam : 30 4. Spazer beam : 20 5. Wave/Spazer beam : 35 6. Ice/Spazer beam : 30 7. Wave/Ice/Spazer beam : 50 8. Plasma beam : 75 9. Wave/Plasma beam / Speed Echoes : 125 / 2,048 10. Ice/Plasma beam : 100 11. Wave/Ice/Plasma beam : 150 12. Missiles : 50 13. Super Missiles : 150 14. Bombs / Space/Time Beam : 30 / 45 per 1/3 of second 15. Power Bombs : 100, can hit twice 16. Speed Running : 250 a frame 17. Super Jump : 150 a frame 18. Screw Attack : 1,000 a frame 19. ALL Charge beams / Hyper Beam / Special Beams / Murder Beam : 3x beam combo / 500 / 150 (45 for ice) / 100 20. Psuedo Screw Attack : 100 21. Unknown Note that this values are the clean ones without any multipliers. Since most enemies have a damage multiplier of 2, you have to double most damages in order to get the result you will finally see in the memory adress while playing the game. However in special cases, sometimes enemies have a multiplier 1 (standard damage won't change) or 4 to some special damage types (like Ridley has to Super Missiles which do 600 instead of the usual 300 on him), so I think it's best to leave the original damage values and just mention the fact about the multipliers of enemies which increase the actual damage.
See my perfect 100% movie-walkthroughs of the best RPG games on http://www.freewebs.com/saturnsmovies/index.htm Current TAS project (with new videos): Super Metroid Redesign, any% speedrun
Posted: 5/27/2007 10:54 AM
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Tonski
Joined: 1/11/2007
Posts: 279
Location: Finland, Lieksa
Okay, so if I understood this right: The Super Metroid Tricks page is updated by moozooh, we need to record smv's for different tricks there? If this is the case I'll check the site and see what trick doesn't have smv yet and record it, okay?
<Deign> .dice 1d1999191023443691 <BisqBot> Deign rolls a blackhole and destroys the planet.
Posted: 5/27/2007 11:04 AM
(Edited: 5/27/2007 12:41 PM)
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Creatus
Joined: 3/18/2006
Posts: 81
Location: Finland
Errrr... I wonder, what's wrong with my emulators nowadays because there have been some smv -files which I haven't been able to watch. In example Moozooh's mock-Spring-Waterball and Saturn's Temporary Blue Suit I'm using Snes9x v1.43+ v9, v10 and Snes9x v1.51 When I choose movie witch I want to play I'll get message "File is wrong format" This happens in 1.43. And in 1.51 it says in Error info box "The movie file is corrupted or in the wrong format" and bottom of the window is text "Unrecognized format" I have downloaded smv(s) so many times that I'm 100% sure that file(s) isn't corrupted. Edit: I noticed that those smvs worked with 1.43-dev version. So, no problem anymore :)
Posted: 5/27/2007 11:20 AM
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Tonski
Joined: 1/11/2007
Posts: 279
Location: Finland, Lieksa
I just watched pretty many SMV's actually, they all worked with me and I'm using v. 1,43. Anyway, if I noticed right damage boost doesn't have its own smv? http://dehacked.2y.net/microstorage.php/info/5739/damage%20boost.smv
<Deign> .dice 1d1999191023443691 <BisqBot> Deign rolls a blackhole and destroys the planet.
Posted: 5/27/2007 6:40 PM
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hero_of_the_day
Player (89)
Joined: 11/14/2005
Posts: 1058
Location: United States
After a couple hours of roaming around zebes and watching the memory watcher, I have compiled the following figures. There were two things I was unable to find a suitable enemy to test on. The screw attack and the super jump echo attack. I just put down the numbers that kejardon posted for those two. Power Bomb Combos: Ice = 90 per hit, 4 potential hits Spazer = 300 per hit, 2 potential hits Wave = 300 per hit, 4 potential hits Plasma = 300 per hit, Time based attack length Missiles & Bombs: Missile = 100 Super Missile = 300 Power Bomb = 200 (can hit twice for up to 400) Bomb = 30 Contact/time based attacks: Fake Screw Attack = 200 (Hits once) Real Screw Attack = (2,000 according to kejardon) Super Jump = 150 per frame of contact Super Jump echo = (4,096 according to kejardon) Blue Echoed running = 500 per frame of contact Grapple beam = >200 (only works on enemies that can be killed in a single shot?) Grapple beam Draygon = 256 every 8 frames, on the 4th repetition it takes 16 frames to inflict any damage and then starts the cycle over. Beams: Beam = 20 Ice = 30 Wave = 50 Spazer = 40 Plasma = 150 Ice + Wave = 60 Ice + Spazer = 60 Ice + plasma = 200 Wave + spazer = 70 Wave + Plasma = 250 Ice + Wave + Spazer = 100 Ice + Wave + Plasma = 300 Charged Beam = 60 Charged Ice = 90 Charged Wave = 150 Charged Spazer = 120 Charged Plasma = 450 Charged Ice + wave = 180 Charged Ice + Spazer = 180 Charged Ice + Plasma = 600 Charged Wave + spazer = 210 Charged Wave + Plasma = 750 Charged Ice + Wave + Spazer = 300 Charged Ice + Wave + Plasma = 900 Hyper Beam = 1,000 (all charged beams are 3 times the power of their non-charged counterparts) ---------------------------------------------------- Mini Bosses: Torizo = 800 (2x Super Missile Damage) Spore Spawn = 960 (2x Charged beam data) Ex: Charged Ice does 180 instead of 90 Crocmire = Hit based Botwon = 3,000 Golden Torizo = 13,500 (2x Super Missile Damage) Pirate Elites = 1,800 each (2x Super Missile Damage) Main Bosses: Kraid = 1,000 Phantoon = 2,500 (2x Super Missile Damage) Draygon = 6,000 Ridley = 18,000 (2x Super Missile Damage) Mother Brain 0 = 3,000 Requires 6 missiles (super or regular) to break glass before any damage can be inflicted Mother Brain 1 = 18,000 Mother Brain 2 = 36,000
They're off to find the hero of the day...
Posted: 5/28/2007 2:24 AM
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Kejardon
Joined: 8/9/2004
Posts: 123
Grapple beam doesn't actually damage enemies. Enemies just die instantly to it if they're vulnerable to it. Draygon being the exception. It's worth mentioning that the speed echoes are treated as an uncharged plasma/wave shot. Which is why they're unfortunately useless for killing anything interesting.
kwinse wrote:
Kejardon wrote:
Kriole wrote:
Samus is damaged by a Rinka in the opening.
That's a script action; no damage. ... it just dawned on me I know way too much about SM.
It took THAT to make you realize?
Posted: 5/28/2007 6:56 AM
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Saturn
Player (206)
Joined: 2/18/2005
Posts: 1451
Just compared heros and Kejs list, and could find 1 error in each of them: If you want ignore the enemy multipliers and go by the most common damage values (which is true damage multiplied by 2 at most enemies), then a Super Jump does 300 a frame, not 150. Draygon is a exception, because he has a multiplier of 1 to Super Jumps, but I just tested and confirm that on all other enemies it does 300. Kejs list has a error too: Bombs do not 30 but 15 (with common multipliers 30 and not 60). Also the game recognizes 21 types of different damages (21st being a unknown one though), so I would highly recommend to order same damage types in one section like Kej did in his list, in order to being more detailed. Example already mentioned by Kej: Speed Echos is same damage type as uncharged Wave/Plasma, just with a much higher damage rate, or all charged shots (no matter what Beams are equipped for it) are same damage type like Hyper, Murderbeam or Charged PB-combos (except of Ice-Shield).
See my perfect 100% movie-walkthroughs of the best RPG games on http://www.freewebs.com/saturnsmovies/index.htm Current TAS project (with new videos): Super Metroid Redesign, any% speedrun
Posted: 5/28/2007 11:45 AM
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Tonski
Joined: 1/11/2007
Posts: 279
Location: Finland, Lieksa
Once again you guys prove I know nothing about this game. :) Bravo.
<Deign> .dice 1d1999191023443691 <BisqBot> Deign rolls a blackhole and destroys the planet.
Posted: 5/29/2007 1:32 PM
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evilchen
Joined: 6/9/2006
Posts: 614
Location: Mettmann
well does anyone know how to make the memory watcher work with snes9x v1.51? i looked into the .ini but i dont know what to add here 
;   target      set target exe (filename:Memory address in hex:RAM offset in hex:IAPU.RAM address in hex)
; support another snes9x family
/*
:target:snes9x+v9.exe:793FA0:0:7B3374
:target:snes9x+v7.exe:790838:0:7AFC0C
:target:snes9x-1.4.3.exe:85C1A0:0:85BB0C
:target:snes9x-1.4.3.wip1.exe:84A5A0:0:849F14
:target:Snes9X1.43.ep9r8.exe:80DDD0:0:5489B4
*/
--- and how do i reset the game while recording with 1.51?
https://www.youtube.com/user/armitageyt
Posted: 5/30/2007 3:06 PM
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hero_of_the_day
Player (89)
Joined: 11/14/2005
Posts: 1058
Location: United States
evilchen, you have to rename the actual snes9x.exe file to 'snes9x-1.51'
They're off to find the hero of the day...
Posted: 5/30/2007 3:33 PM
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evilchen
Joined: 6/9/2006
Posts: 614
Location: Mettmann
that wont/didnt make the mem watcher to work, the memory entry is missing i guess, does anyone know it? i posted the current ones in my last post ps: and still how do i reset while recording :D?! i need it for the no boss run v2 pss: i glitched all the way up in the statue room like kej, but i fail the bomb jump - i do exactly bomb jump like him and end up to the room left and not in the elevator
https://www.youtube.com/user/armitageyt
Posted: 5/30/2007 3:40 PM
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moozooh
Senior Moderator
Joined: 8/4/2005
Posts: 5777
Location: Away
evilchen wrote:
that wont/didnt make the mem watcher to work, the memory entry is missing i guess, does anyone know it? i posted the current ones in my last post
Download this archive. Everything should work. Regarding demos and other stuff, I'll try to incorporate everything in the next update. Hopefully this week — that is, if I won't get melted by the heat. :\
Warp wrote:
Edit: I think I understand now: It's my avatar, isn't it? It makes me look angry.
Posted: 5/30/2007 4:41 PM
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evilchen
Joined: 6/9/2006
Posts: 614
Location: Mettmann
huh nice thank you moozooh:) mem watcher does work fine i see there is a snes-reset.exe is that the one i need or does the 1.51 supply a function for reset while recording? iam really helpless with that
https://www.youtube.com/user/armitageyt
Posted: 5/31/2007 5:54 PM
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hero_of_the_day
Player (89)
Joined: 11/14/2005
Posts: 1058
Location: United States
1.51 has a built in reset function. Just pause the emulator when you are recording and click reset from the file menu. The game will continue recording as usual. Have you finished the test run yet?
They're off to find the hero of the day...
Posted: 5/31/2007 7:04 PM
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evilchen
Joined: 6/9/2006
Posts: 614
Location: Mettmann
it takes some time to get enough powerbombs from the mtroids but iam sure its done the next days/week - i have to do 1 exam and then iam kinda free for some time hope ill get a good start with the real thing then i feel like you want to see the end? or ending time :p? the run looks so crappy i can't even understand that you ask for it :>
https://www.youtube.com/user/armitageyt
Posted: 5/31/2007 8:04 PM
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hero_of_the_day
Player (89)
Joined: 11/14/2005
Posts: 1058
Location: United States
Even though it may be a little sloppy, it gives a great idea for what the final time will be in an optimized run. I am also curious to know if the intro movie method that kejardon posted worked.
They're off to find the hero of the day...
Posted: 5/31/2007 8:43 PM
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evilchen
Joined: 6/9/2006
Posts: 614
Location: Mettmann
it cant fail since kej said the byte is set like it should be with the intro screen :) if it does not work there may be more bytes important for that
https://www.youtube.com/user/armitageyt
Posted: 6/2/2007 9:34 PM
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evilchen
Joined: 6/9/2006
Posts: 614
Location: Mettmann
http://dehacked.2y.net/microstorage.php/info/5829/10.smv iam exhausted trying to beat them, got the first two down, and then somehow i made the second one respawn or something like that?! i dont know its so hard and the drops seem to be the same and only one item per kill mostly ps: iam really angry on them now, tried the whole time to kill them all at once did succeed mostly but all of them just drop 1 item... thats not what i thought off? why is that? normaly they are supposed to drop 2-5?
https://www.youtube.com/user/armitageyt
Posted: 6/3/2007 3:13 AM
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Kejardon
Joined: 8/9/2004
Posts: 123
The item drop routine is called by the death routine. The death routine is called by the hit detection routine. Metroids have a special hit detection for projectiles, which calls a special death routine, which calls the multiple item drop routine. Or it calls the item drop routine multiple times, I'd have to check. Metroids have the normal/common hit detection for power bombs, which calls the normal/common death routine, which calls the item drop routine *once*. So yeah. You *must* kill them all at once. There's no way to get around the problem. Oh, and you MUST avoid excessive damage, or else you'll trigger energy only drops.
kwinse wrote:
Kejardon wrote:
Kriole wrote:
Samus is damaged by a Rinka in the opening.
That's a script action; no damage. ... it just dawned on me I know way too much about SM.
It took THAT to make you realize?
Posted: 6/3/2007 8:50 AM
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Saturn
Player (206)
Joined: 2/18/2005
Posts: 1451
Looks really good so far, evilchen. Especially the pass of the Spike room before X-Ray was interesting to see. Also a pretty good energy management overall. Keep up the good work, we all will be interested to see the final run and it's completion time. :-)
Kejardon wrote:
Oh, and you MUST avoid excessive damage, or else you'll trigger energy only drops.
New to me. Could you please explain more exactly what you mean by that and also why this is like that? I have a similar problem in Redesign where I only get health drops if not having max Energy or Missiles, so maybe the problem in SMR might be somehow related to what you just said? Any help would be greatly appreciated.
See my perfect 100% movie-walkthroughs of the best RPG games on http://www.freewebs.com/saturnsmovies/index.htm Current TAS project (with new videos): Super Metroid Redesign, any% speedrun
Posted: 6/3/2007 11:36 AM
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evilchen
Joined: 6/9/2006
Posts: 614
Location: Mettmann
i know i cant get much damage because the drops will be just energy but does that mean only missiles make them drop more then one item? and a stinkypowerbomb gives just 1 normal item :/? - because i could not get farer the last days i started abit of "training" with the beginning and i could shape of ~200 frames up to the morphball yet.. ;) but i guess finishing the metroids/and the testrun will take a little bit more time then i tought
https://www.youtube.com/user/armitageyt
Posted: 6/3/2007 3:06 PM
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Saturn
Player (206)
Joined: 2/18/2005
Posts: 1451
Ahh, so Kej meant avoiding excessive damage to Samus, and not to the Metroids then? If so then yeah, you have to keep Samus at least at 30+ energy to not trigger the health only drops. Once you get below 30, you have to get +50 in order to disable the health only trigger again. And apparently Metroids indeed drop only one item when being killed by Powerbombs. This sucks of course, since you require at least 3 PBs to kill a Metroid, and thus get forced to damage/kill at least 3 Metroids in the same time including all 3 to drop a PB after that. Indeed a very hard task which will require alot of precise luck manipulation. Best of luck for this though. PS: And yes evilchen, only Missiles and Supers will make Metroids drop multiple items. But for that you need Ice Beam anyway, so it's out of choice.
See my perfect 100% movie-walkthroughs of the best RPG games on http://www.freewebs.com/saturnsmovies/index.htm Current TAS project (with new videos): Super Metroid Redesign, any% speedrun
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