Ahh... Calvin and Hobbes is quite the classic. If I recall correctly, that's the second row of a Sunday comic with the word "homework" replaced with "TAS"
Back on-topic: A rough-draft WIP that shows what you plan to accomplish in the run might be a good idea. Many of us who aren't familiar enough with Super Metroid to understand your concept would love a visual aid! Besides, you wouldn't need to frame-perfect the WIP, and I'm sure several people would have advice/questions/ideas about the route you take.
Can someone give me a link where I can find a lot of Super Metroid glitches/bugs/actions saving frames etc?
Saturn I just have to say that you're awesome with Super Metroid. Words cannot describe your videos.
<Deign> .dice 1d1999191023443691
<BisqBot> Deign rolls a blackhole and destroys the planet.
Well there's http://tasvideos.org/SuperMetroidTricks.html if text is what you're looking for.
If you're looking for video demonstrations, you could check the current 100% TAS, the submission of Metroid Legacy 100%, or the video spoilers of Saturn's RBO run.
If you mean a section like on M2K2 where each type of trick has a corresponding video...there's nothing like that around here. M2K2's videos work, but they focus on real-time playing so some tricks will be absent.
<Swordless> Go hug a tree, you vegetarian (I bet you really are one)
Sorry if I'm asking too much, but is it possible to do the quicker Shinespark on original SNES? The one that is told in that link you gave me as "Charge shinespark in shorter distance". I didn't quite understand what that meant, but maybe you could explain me?
EDIT: I apologize for the double post... I'm new to the site.
EDIT2: Do you have any ideas where I could find this trance-rave mix of the Terminator 2 theme that Saturn used in his Speedrun preview #2? I've tried to find it, but can't find it...
<Deign> .dice 1d1999191023443691
<BisqBot> Deign rolls a blackhole and destroys the planet.
I can't answer your questions but I will ask you one. If you are 14 years old, you were 2 when SM was released. You sure you've been playing it since the day it came out?
Super Metroid keeps track of Samus's horizontal speed and her level of blue echoness seperately.
Any frame where dash is held while running will increase her horizontal speed (up to a certain maximum), but there are only specific frames in her running animation that will advance her to the next "level" toward getting blue echoes.
All that's required to get blue echoes is to make sure the level gets up to 4. During tool-assisted play, pressing dash on only these special frames will advance the level each press, and since the other frames don't have dash being held, Samus's speed isn't increasing during those frames.
If you use memory watch on the location of the speed booster level (7E0B3F), do a normal dash and watch the behavior of the speed boost level. This may explain it better than I can.
Lastly, this technique is possible on console as well, though not to the extreme that can be done with tools. The easiest application is to start holding dash slightly after beginning to run, instead of holding both at the same time. Here's an example of an application of that trick.
The answer to your other question was posted somewhere, but I wasn't able to find it. Try around pages 25-35 of this thread maybe?
<Swordless> Go hug a tree, you vegetarian (I bet you really are one)
I can't answer your questions but I will ask you one. If you are 14 years old, you were 2 when SM was released. You sure you've been playing it since the day it came out?
I changed it... Well, if you take it literally then no. But I still have a working Super Nintendo Entertainment System, and it's the same one that my bigger sister started to play with me... When I was 2. And yes, I know I might have not understood that much about the games I played and just smashing the buttons but hey, everyone plays with their own style. :)
Kiva muuten nähdä että täällä on suomalaisiakin. :)
JXQ wrote:
Super Metroid keeps track of Samus's horizontal speed and her level of blue echoness seperately.
Any frame where dash is held while running will increase her horizontal speed (up to a certain maximum), but there are only specific frames in her running animation that will advance her to the next "level" toward getting blue echoes.
All that's required to get blue echoes is to make sure the level gets up to 4. During tool-assisted play, pressing dash on only these special frames will advance the level each press, and since the other frames don't have dash being held, Samus's speed isn't increasing during those frames.
If you use memory watch on the location of the speed booster level (7E0B3F), do a normal dash and watch the behavior of the speed boost level. This may explain it better than I can.
Lastly, this technique is possible on console as well, though not to the extreme that can be done with tools. The easiest application is to start holding dash slightly after beginning to run, instead of holding both at the same time. Here's an example of an application of that trick.
The answer to your other question was posted somewhere, but I wasn't able to find it. Try around pages 25-35 of this thread maybe?
Thanks. Now I get it... I hope I'm not bothering you too much with all these questions. Is it okay to ask something every once in a while? If I can't figure something out or something like that...
<Deign> .dice 1d1999191023443691
<BisqBot> Deign rolls a blackhole and destroys the planet.
You can try shortening the distance further if you watch Samus's running animation closely: the special frames are closely tied to it and thus only occur when her "front foot" is touching the ground.
Warp wrote:
Edit: I think I understand now: It's my avatar, isn't it? It makes me look angry.
You can try shortening the distance further if you watch Samus's running animation closely: the special frames are closely tied to it and thus only occur when her "front foot" is touching the ground.
Okay? So when she's facing left, her "front foot" is the left foot? And when facing right the front foot is right foor? And if they're tied up somehow, does it mean that when running right I have to press B (on SNES) everytime her right foot "front foot" is touching the ground?
And btw, I searched 25-35 of this thread, I couldn't find out where to download that trance-rave mix of the Terminator 2 theme...
<Deign> .dice 1d1999191023443691
<BisqBot> Deign rolls a blackhole and destroys the planet.
So when she's facing left, her "front foot" is the left foot? And when facing right the front foot is right foor? And if they're tied up somehow, does it mean that when running right I have to press B (on SNES) everytime her right foot "front foot" is touching the ground?
Yes. Yes, right foot. Yes, when going right. Yes, when touching the ground. Yes, you may want to press it a bit beforehand to catch the right moment. :)
Watch JXQ's run with input display on, and slow it down as he's about to charge a spark in short distance, if that helps.
Warp wrote:
Edit: I think I understand now: It's my avatar, isn't it? It makes me look angry.
Yes. Yes, right foot. Yes, when going right. Yes, when touching the ground. Yes, you may want to press it a bit beforehand to catch the right moment. :)
Watch JXQ's run with input display on, and slow it down as he's about to charge a spark in short distance, if that helps.
Okay thanks a lot! :) Where can I find JQX's run?
<Deign> .dice 1d1999191023443691
<BisqBot> Deign rolls a blackhole and destroys the planet.
Joined: 11/14/2005
Posts: 1058
Location: United States
Since the Super Metroid Tricks page is asking for discussions on various routes, I will post a route that I developed and believe to be the fastest route for an any% run aiming for real time. I have done quite a bit of testing and have some good experience TASing this game. My route idea can be found here http://img441.imageshack.us/my.php?image=herootdmetroidroutewv0.jpg.
The image shows my intended route and the damage data for all the bosses as well.
Some notes on my route:
Since this aims for real time, there are some less obvious choices that I made. For example phantoon will be 2 rounded not 1 because collecting an extra missle pack would eat up more time on the overall frame length of the movie. Only 3 packs are required to kill the glass mother brain form.
I get the 3 packs which are right in Samus' path anyway.
I have done some painful tests and determined that Kraid must be done before ridley, which means no speed boosting in kraid's lair. Having only 1 energy tank is not enough to survive lower norfair. The acid lake requires a 50 hp damage boost + 40 hp hit from the gravity jump. On top of that the shinespark eats up over 70 hp thought the breakable pillars. Doing kraid first will give me an extra energy tank and make lower norfair possible.
I am not exactly sure when the Ice beam should be collected, but getting it before the speed booster would require one less visit to the pause menu to turn it off. Getting the Ice beam after killing ridley would require that I go to the pause menu and deactivate it so I can perform the powerbomb/wave combo.
High jump boots are en easy item to forget about, they save very little time in the long run and require quite a bit of time to collect. The space jump is also skipped. I requires 20 seconds in real time to get the space jump, but since I am doing draygon last, it would only save a couple seconds in the rest of the run. I intend to shinespark out of the top of maridia and make my way to tourian that way.
Plasma beam is also skipped. This item would be collected if I was to fight both ridley and mother brain with it, but since ridley is already dead this item is way less useful. The mother brain fight will be 60 seconds long using charged/wave/spazer/ice which is exactly 40 seconds longer than charged/plasma/wave/ice. The plasma beam requires over 1 minute to collect in real time. The net gain is 20 seconds or so by skipping it.
A second power bomb pack must be collected to decrease the length of the ridley fight. I have seen Saturn's teaser avi where he uses the wave/power bomb on ridley, and it seems like a very fast way to take him down. 10 super missles inflicts 6,000 damage to ridley and 10 power/wave combo's does 12,000 damage which is exactly 18,000. Luckily there is a power bomb pack en route to ridley which only requires 10 seconds in real time to collect.
This route requires virtually no back tracking at all, which in itself is a gigantic time saver. I have timed the wrecked ship and without the spazer/wave/highjump/speed booster, the net loss is less than 25 seconds.
I do have some uncertainty's still. I am torn between collecting ridley's energy tank, or the on that lies in the middle of maridia. The one in maridia does not require any door transitions, but slows down Samus' momentum considerably. On the other hand, the energy tank from ridley would be very useful in having for all the shinesparks that occur between the accent from lower norfair to the fight with draygon.
After collecting the wave beam, there is a great little route that leads straight to the lower norfair elevator, by going down after exiting the room leading to the wave beam. May save a few seconds compared to the traditional descent using the ice beam route to lower norfair.
Any comment or questions are welcomed. I know Saturn is working on an any% improvement currently, and it will surley be one of the finest runs ever made, but I know his goal is to get the in game timer as low as possible. I would like to see how low the real time can get, which is why I made this route.
Since the Super Metroid Tricks page is asking for discussions on various routes, I will post a route that I developed and believe to be the fastest route for an any% run aiming for real time. I have done quite a bit of testing and have some good experience TASing this game. My route idea can be found here http://img441.imageshack.us/my.php?image=herootdmetroidroutewv0.jpg.
The image shows my intended route and the damage data for all the bosses as well.
That's a very interesting route, especially considering there's so little backtracking involved. And I really didn't hope for such a quick response for that suggestion I put up on the TODO, so it was a pleasant surprise as well. :D
hero of the day wrote:
Since this aims for real time, there are some less obvious choices that I made.
I should say, the choices are indeed surprising, especially such as skipping both Space Jump and HJ boots. That will really slow you down in vertical and some horizontal rooms, and I'm not sure not taking the Space Jump is going to compensate it. Come to think of it, you'll gain about 20 seconds with nearly a half of it lost on doing a gravity jump to get to the exit from Draygon's room, then a bit more later in Maridia, then a bit more for not being able to space boost in the first Crateria room to the left of the ship (which would also allow for going through the bomb-block blockade painlessly without having to stop and recharge), then a bit more in the third metroid room and Tourian eyedoor room. Summed together, I see it about as much as 20 seconds, if not more.
Anyhow, the setting of items, their order and methods of traversing the areas remind me pretty much of Saturn's RBO run or a low% one. The fact that you won't be using the fastest known methods to dispose of Phantoon, Ridley and Mother Brain due to the lack of all the required items, coupled with noticeably slower travelling is sure a bit daunting, and this of course will have its impact on the entertainment value, although less backtracking and waiting for door transitions/item acquisition fanfares might make up for that.
hero of the day wrote:
I know Saturn is working on an any% improvement currently, and it will surley be one of the finest runs ever made, but I know his goal is to get the in game timer as low as possible. I would like to see how low the real time can get, which is why I made this route.
Since you said you had some good experience TASing this game, and already made most of the tests and route planning, I'll ask you: how much time will it take you to make this run? As we know, Saturn will be away for his duties for the whole next year, and he'll still need to make about 2/3 of his run after he returns. As we also know, his route will be faster in-game time (which is prevalent in the case with Super Metroid, due to numerous reasons) and more entertaining for the same reasons. You have enough time to make this run and have it published until then, which is also twice as good since having such an outdated run for one of the most popular and TAS-happy games doesn't make any good for the site. So will you do it?
Warp wrote:
Edit: I think I understand now: It's my avatar, isn't it? It makes me look angry.
Joined: 11/14/2005
Posts: 1058
Location: United States
moozooh wrote:
Come to think of it, you'll gain about 20 seconds with nearly a half of it lost on doing a gravity jump to get to the exit from Draygon's room, then a bit more later in Maridia, then a bit more for not being able to space boost in the first Crateria room to the left of the ship (which would also allow for going through the bomb-block blockade painlessly without having to stop and recharge), then a bit more in the third metroid room and Tourian eyedoor room. Summed together, I see it about as much as 20 seconds, if not more.
Well I thought of that too, but I had planned on IBJing out of the room. Draygon gives you a large window of down time during his death sequence in which I can climb to the top of the room using bomb jumps. I can open the door at the very first frame possible since I will be waiting at the top platform until his death sequence ends. Unfortunately I may need some of his dropped energy or weapon refills that he leaves behind after his death; this will require further testing to know for sure. Luckily the space jump is only obtainable at the end of the run, so I can test it when I get to it.
moozooh wrote:
Since you said you had some good experience TASing this game, and already made most of the tests and route planning, I'll ask you: how much time will it take you to make this run? As we know, Saturn will be away for his duties for the whole next year, and he'll still need to make about 2/3 of his run after he returns. As we also know, his route will be faster in-game time (which is prevalent in the case with Super Metroid, due to numerous reasons) and more entertaining for the same reasons. You have enough time to make this run and have it published until then, which is also twice as good since having such an outdated run for one of the most popular and TAS-happy games doesn't make any good for the site. So will you do it?
Yes, I would really like to start working on a serious run for this game. I don't think it would take too long either, maybe a month or so. I wanted to wait until JXQ finishes his new run before I started, just in case he found anything new or useful and so I could compare times up until the first super missle pack. Though I may just start it now and hope that the beginning is up to par with JXQ's new run.
I think this is sweet, I'm all about real-time runs.
This route is taking me a while to digest, but it seems to be thorough. But please, don't wait for me to finish before starting! I haven't even started yet and the any% run is in bad need of some obsoleting.
Every idea I had, moozooh explain to me why it was wrong. So I have nothing to add at this point, except encouragement to get started :)
<Swordless> Go hug a tree, you vegetarian (I bet you really are one)
Though I know very little about Super Metroid, I also wish to offer my encouragement to you hotd. I much prefer real time and this is a run I'm looking forward to.
Joined: 11/14/2005
Posts: 1058
Location: United States
Thanks everyone, I will get cracking on this in a few days. For those who are curious here is a crappy quick test run up until kraid lair that I made. It should give an idea of the techniques I will use in the wrecked ship. Unfortunately I got crappy item spawns from phantoon, so I had to slow down to pick up energy. I intentionally do things different than JXQ just to try new ideas and such. I got the torizo to spawn items instead of swinging his arm, for example. I stupidly thought that I should get the missle pack before the charge beam, but it turns out I should not have collected it. Since this will be the route that I will be using, I would like to hear some feedback before I start recording the actual run. The real run will be many seconds faster than this test run.
http://dehacked.2y.net/microstorage.php/info/3437/supermetroid_herootd.smv
I'm back for a while.
Hero, I'm glad you decided to work on another Super Metroid run. Your route is a very interesting one. I also considered to use a very similar one before, but later decided to go for Plasma anyway, mostly because it shows a more powerful Samus in the end and because the boss fights won't be too long that way. Due to my tests the total result for both routes is almost the same.
Here my script file for both routes:
Any% route comparisons between Draygon first (Plasma route) and Ridley first (Spazer route)
And a couple of test smv's:
Draygon last (Skip Plasma) route to goDraygon last (with Plasma delay, for faster Mother Brain fight)
Both show that the Space Jump is of very much use in this routes. I think it saves more time just in this Maridia areas alone compared to the slight delay to get it.
Skipping HJ Boots seems to be a more interesting option. Due to tests I got a ~700 frameds delay (with skip of the e-tank of course) in total, and it's indeed doubtful if this 700 frames can be catched up during the rest of the game, IF it wouldn't be for the big Shinespark through the large room before Draygon that easily saves this time and most likely even more. Without HJ-Boots you won't be able to walljump up the vertical room fast enough to keep the charge for the Shinespark.
Non HJ-Boots Shinespark attempt to Draygon (failed)
I was around 5 frames too late to start the Shinepark and can't see a way to cut them down. If it's possible, skipping HJ Boots could be a interesting choice (or if a Gravity Jump could work here at least, which I didn't test though), otherwise it's out of question as well.
Even for the sake of comparison it would be very interesting to see which route (Plasma with Ridley last or Spazer with Draygon last) would be faster in the end, so I would be very interested to see what you, hero, can do with your route.
Also, if anything, I'll be disturbing Saturn and Moozooh for pointers :)
