Thank you, catnap222. I might try that sometime if I get my motivation back. As for the grapple beam, I didn't know it had a paralyzing effect either before I made the movie. I have no idea if it works in the original. The reason I used it was because my current weapons were nowhere near powerful enough to kill the enemies in a short amount of time and I couldn't afford to take damage either.
Well, my progress was very slow in the last time. I just couldn't find the needed time to continue the run as I did in the last month because of a much more busy life now. I'm still in Brinstar and have alot of problems to clear which require too much testing. [...]
Yes, during the working days anyway. But I slowly continue working on the run. I'm testing around in lower norfair for a while now so the next WIP should be done soon. However I decided to delay the WIP-release until I can escape lower norfair instead after killing Ridley because the escape turned out to be the biggest problem for me.
In the meantime I can offer a video that shows a test fight against Ridley:
http://rapidshare.de/files/19626115/Super_Metroid_RBO_Run_-_Ridley_Beta-Test.avi.html
It shows a example of how close the fight will be. And there is even more: I have no chance to survive the lower norfair escape with the conditions I have after the fight in the vid. I am forced to kill Ridley and grab his energy tank BEFORE the Reserve Tank runs out as I will badly need it for the escape.
So now I'm looking for a way to kill Ridley even faster. I fear there is no other way to speed the fight up if not collecting one more ammo-pack than planned. I consider to grab the Power Bombs in LN (the room with the vertical shaft you can use the kagoball glitch to pass the moving spike blocks) so that I can use more charged PB Wave combos on Ridley which will definitely speed things up. However I'm not sure if the energy will suffice for the extra detour in the heat so it requires much testings to find out.
In short defeating Ridley is not a problem (although damn close) but the LN escape is.
You'd expect a Reverse-Boss-Order-run to become easier with each boss..
going underwater is slower, but harmless (as in: mistakes slow you down, they don't kill you). He'll have to adjust to the new physics, but at least he's not going to have to redo half of maridia because he ran out of energy. I suspect some experiments with route planning though, the existing NBNM-Runs never cared too much for speed, and the optimal (TAS-)route is yet to be found.
Saturn,
thanks for the update. I'm still looking forward to the run. Good luck with everything, I want to see you escape ridley with 1 energy left. ;)
Saturn, I'm very happy to watch your progress.
I love your speed demo2.avi so much and repeat to watch it almost every day ;)
Indeed, I noticed the idea of RBO in the summer of 2005, and had tried many tests for making first RBO/suitless run, in the term from july 2005 to febuary 2006.
But once I watched your movie, I gave up to make RBO run because there is no way to beat your run.
At the same time, I was very impressed and enhanced your run, and now Im waiting for your run completed!
anyway, I have my test play movie which escape from lower norfair sucsessfully.
I collected more items than yours, but mabye there is some hint to escape.
please watch it. thank you.
http://homepage3.nifty.com/catfood/up/src/up7119.zip
EDIT: please watch it with snes9x 1.43 WIP
point is:
1. Reserve tank beeing well used
2. run through golden pirates without knockback
By the way, I want to know the music used in your speed demo2.avi
please tell me. :)
Will the run become exponentially easier/faster after you return from Norfair?
Easier yes, but not really faster as said with Maridia.
Tub wrote:
I suspect some experiments with route planning though, the existing NBNM-Runs never cared too much for speed, and the optimal (TAS-)route is yet to be found.
I think I have found the optimal route in Maridia. You just go the fastest known way to Bowoon/Draygon and then use the blinking grey door (unlocked after killing Draygon) that is above the Botwoon room to get to the location near Plasma and exit Maridia from the top right elevator so that you can enter Wrecked Ship from the wrong side to kill Phantoon. When I reach Maridia I will check everything one more time to be sure.
catnap:
Thank you, glad you like the teasers. The song in the Speed Demo2.avi is a trance-rave mix of the Terminator 2 theme.
Also thanks alot for the escape movie. It helped me especially with the run through the golden pirates trick. I wonder how you managed to avoid damage from them. I noticed you have shot the first one right before touching it. Is this the reason?
However keep in mind that you have the screw attack that saves much time in the escape as you can simply jump through enemies without sacrificing speed to dodge them. Also you save much time in the last heat room where you can simply destroy both bomb-block walls with the screw attack.
What I wonder though is why did you collect the X-Ray scope? It is the most unnecessary item in the game (at least when you know all hidden paths) so why collecting it for a RBO? Also how many Super Missiles were you able to use on Ridley? Your fight was surprisingly fast although you haven't used any Missiles at all on him and you still managed to keep almost the entire energy from the reserve tank for the escape. Did you use another probably faster strategy to beat him?
All in all your RBO route was pretty similar to mine.
I think using missiles is slower, at least since you unloaded them too fast (I think).
Is this an any% run? Something I'd like to see sometime is a lowest% rbo run.
I think using missiles is slower, at least since you unloaded them too fast (I think).
Is this an any% run? Something I'd like to see sometime is a lowest% rbo run.
If firing Missiles at a constant max rate it is exactly twice as fast as using charged Spazer/Wave/Ice at max rate. For a charged shot (no matter what beams) you need 61 frames per shot which in my case would deal 300 damage to Ridley. The Missile fire rate is 10 or 9 frames and each Missile does 100 damage to Ridley so I end (if optimal) with 600 damage per second. The downside is that it's difficult to keep the max fire rate of Missiles during the fight because Ridley often goes off screen and I sometimes have to wait for him. Charged shots however are easy to keep at the max firerate because you have more time between the shots. If optimized I still think Missiles are faster.
I aim for any% but fastest RBO time. However I still try to collect as l few items as somehow possible without slowing down.
I noticed you have shot the first one right before touching it. Is this the reason?
yeah, that's right.
This kind of trick is well known, especially Plasma one.
Plasma penetrates enemies and damage zone of enemy disapears during that time.
But this trick is possible only by using Plasma.
My golden pirates trick is one of the exception.
It is not necessary to use Plasma. all beam is possible.
The reason why only golden pirates is mabye derived from their reflection characteristic.
However keep in mind that you have the screw attack...
Yes, I know. you have less items and are lack of effective equipment for save time.
Escaping in this situation seems to be terriblly defficult.
but there may be some solutions..... I believe. maybe.
Yes, I came up with one improvement.
How about CristalFlashing during the time Redley haven't come yet?
Redley fight may become little bit long, but not so long compared to get more items.
I used this method in my test movie, and it saves some energy.
If you use CristalFlash at above grey gate(get stuck into the door when entering Redley room), you can attack smoothly after that.
And use reserve tank manually, not automatically.
If everything is well done, reserve tank may remain fully after the fight.
By the way, how much the lack of energy is for escaping?
Is this an any% run? Something I'd like to see sometime is a lowest% rbo run.
Since killing Ridley and escaping lower Norfair afterwards requires quite a mandatory amount of items to reach and survive the whole mess (and you won't really need anything afterwards, because within the given constraints, there's hardly anything worse than lower Norfair), the fastest RBO run would be any% and low% at the same time. Or at least similar to. Or at least I think so.
Warp wrote:
Edit: I think I understand now: It's my avatar, isn't it? It makes me look angry.
I noticed you have shot the first one right before touching it. Is this the reason?
yeah, that's right.
This kind of trick is well known, especially Plasma one.
Plasma penetrates enemies and damage zone of enemy disappears during that time.
But this trick is possible only by using Plasma.
My golden pirates trick is one of the exception.
It is not necessary to use Plasma. all beam is possible.
The reason why only golden pirates is mabye derived from their reflection characteristic.
However keep in mind that you have the screw attack...
Yes, I know. you have less items and are lack of effective equipment for save time.
Escaping in this situation seems to be terriblly defficult.
but there may be some solutions..... I believe. maybe.
Yes, I came up with one improvement.
How about CrystalFlashing at boss room during the time Redley haven't come yet?
Redley fight may become little bit long, but not so long compared to get more items.
I used this method in my test movie, and it saves some energy.
If you use CrystalFlash at upper gray gate(get stuck into the door when entering Redley room), you can attack smoothly after that.
And use reserve tank manually, not automatically.
If everything is well done, reserve tank may remain fully after the fight.
By the way, how much the lack of energy is for escaping?
----
EDIT:
Oh, I forgot to answer the most important question. :P
why did you collect the X-Ray scope?
I managed to use it for escaping from Draygon room.
My strategy was follows.
1. Make samus caught by Draygon during CF
2. Shinespark into Draygon and gain bluesuit
3. charge and shinespark to the upper cliff
4. get out and stuck into the left blue door of next room
5. Crystal Flash and go up using X-Ray climb
At that time, I didnt have much information which was well known at worldwide website.
There aren't deep information enough to carry TASing well in Japan.
So, I didn't know the way escaping without X-Ray.
Also how many Super Missiles were you able to use on Ridley?
In NBMB, we can collect 30 super missiles and this number is the muximum for fighting Redley in RBO.
And 10 out of 30 are placed in Maridia.
So, I collected 20 super missiles before Redley.
10 out of 20 used for Crystal Flash and others for Redley.
Did you use another probably faster strategy to beat him?
no strategy. ;)
have 20 super missiles, CF during Redley comming up, that's all.
I will upload smv file I made for test play few days later. Pleas wait...
-----
EDIT: Oh my g... forgive my double post.
Yes, I came up with one improvement.
How about CrystalFlashing at boss room during the time Redley haven't come yet?
Redley fight may become little bit long, but not so long compared to get more items.
I used this method in my test movie, and it saves some energy.
If you use CrystalFlash at upper gray gate(get stuck into the door when entering Redley room), you can attack smoothly after that.
Thank you for posting this smart trick! Again something I haven't considered to use at all. Starting a CF right in the grey door of Ridleys room would definitely be worth to use because you won't waste time during the CF-animation (which are around 10 sec) and still can start the battle in time. The little time loss by not using a charged PB wave combo which makes 1200 damage immediately to Ridley is surely compensated by the 10 sec gain of the CF animation during the waiting time plus the at least 1 more tank of available energy for the fight. The only problem with this is I'm not sure if my low energy will suffice if delaying the CF until Ridleys room (it wouldn't work in the test run) so the way to Ridley has to be speeded up again. If this works I can easyly skip the additional PB pack in lower norfair which is a good thing.
I will of course use the reserve tanks manually in the final run. I just didn't care about it too much in the test fight.
catnap222 wrote:
By the way, how much the lack of energy is for escaping?
In the tests it were about 80 energy points that lacked to survive the escape if not having a full reserve tank before.
Thanks for the clarification about the X-Ray and the Super Missiles. Still a good thing to come up with such smart alternatives to escape Draygons room. :-)
moozooh wrote:
...the fastest RBO run would be any% and low% at the same time.
I'm glad to contribute your run. :-)
and some small improvements on fighting Redley.
Note that charge beam is not stored in the turning motion.
So if you use charge beam, avoid turning as much as possible.
Place samus on the appropriate position, and control Redleys movement pattern.
And also, you can mix attack pattern (missile attack and chargebeam attack)
If you can't attack him with missiles because of avoiding his attack, use chargebeam.
then, you can attack with missiles again when Redley is in the attackable position.
In the tests it were about 80 energy points that lacked to survive the escape if not having a full reserve tank before.
So the only problem is how to remain reserve energy after fight finished.
Still it is difficult, but I believe you will solve this problem. keep going! :D
Thanks for the hints. I already considered to mix the Missiles with charged shots during dodges or offscreens. However each time you switch from a charged shot to a missile shot you will lose 30 whole frames until you can fire the next missile again which is pretty much. I will analyze this variations more carefully to find the optimal use in every case.
As for the pause of the charge counter during the turn around animation there is a way to avoid almost the entire delay by simply doing a small spinjump and turn around during it in one frame then continue to charge. I used this trick for most turn arounds in the Ridley test fight vid as well. :-)
One thing I probably don't know exactly is Ridleys acting on different moves of Samus. I guess there is no way to find the optimal solution without testing each individual case.
I would still be very interested to see your Ridley test fight in case you want to upload it at some time. Maybe I can learn some other useful tricks of it as well.
Thanks for your support catnap!
by simply doing a small spinjump and turn around during it in one frame
smart way :D
One thing I probably don't know exactly is Ridleys acting on different moves of Samus.
Me too, and it is defficult to control Redley perfectly.
But to say at least, it may be sure that Redleys movement is determined by his rest energy and position of samus.
I would still be very interested to see your Ridley test fight in case you want to upload it at some time.
I don't get it, what's the trick with the glass tube?
The only thing I can notice could be a trick is keeping the momentum after the door using the turn-around animation, but that's been done by many before.
Anyway, those movies were pretty cool.
Great movies, thanks catnap!
Apparently the CF in Ridleys grey door is still not fast enough to attack Ridley immediately but I still think its faster overall. I liked the trick to avoid the spikes after the hidden energy tank by taking the knockback (which only deals 5 energy points of damage) from the bat. I freezed it and used it as a platform which is slower overall.
The maridia movie was great. I was planning to use the glass tube trick as well but opening the top door before Samus would touch it, then freeze land on the first fish. Your trick by gaining more momentum for the jump and abusing the turn around animation is definitely faster since you jump alot higher this way. The X-Ray climb to Botwoon was also nice to see and it's probably faster than the snail climb.
I'm sure this movies will be of use in some parts especially for time comparisons. :-)
How are you having trouble with the escape after defeating Ridley when there's an energy tank in the next room? Why would beating Ridley faster matter, when that AVI shows you beating him in enough time (and that wasn't even the fastest way)?
How are you having trouble with the escape after defeating Ridley when there's an energy tank in the next room? Why would beating Ridley faster matter, when that AVI shows you beating him in enough time (and that wasn't even the fastest way)?
There is no way to skip this hidden energy tank before going to Ridley so I can't use it as a refill on the escape.
And except of some small and careless mistakes and of course the final KO grab of Ridley the fight in the vid is pretty much the fastest way to kill him in my conditions. I couldn't think of any major improvements there.
short question about the resetbeam or spaz/time-beam(ice spazer plasma) or however you call it..
ive fooled arround on my SNES(console) with it - after some time the planet begans to explode without a timecounter and neither i killed motherbrain..
now i tried it again and again on snes9x for some testsmv... and i cant get it happen again? can annyone help me out?
evil..
