Joined: 11/26/2010
Posts: 454
Location: New York, US
Judging from where you guys are now I'm guessing Lower Norfair item drops must have taken a long time to optimize. Its gonna be fun watching you guys murder rooms filled with enemies and collect drops without slowing down much at all. Like the room before Ridley for some reason it just looks so sick. BTW I'm sure you guys will literally walk through Maridia no problem. Anyway Great Job so far guys, I can't wait to see the run!!!!!!!!!!
Judging from where you guys are now I'm guessing Lower Norfair item drops must have taken a long time to optimize.
Actually there was only one refill which took a long time to optimize (you'll know it when you see it), the rest was fairly easy. We redid Ridley once though, since we found some improvements.
lxx4xNx6xxl wrote:
BTW I'm sure you guys will literally walk through Maridia no problem.
Pretty much, we're at Botwoon and have just finished planning all the refills for Draygon.
I would love to see this run finished before 2012, hopefully we can live up to that :3.
Also, we are currently 15733 frames ahead of my old RBO. Bizarre.
I would love to see this run finished before 2012...
Christmas gift, please!
Kriole wrote:
Also, we are currently 15733 frames ahead of my old RBO. Bizarre.
That's something! Though i don't remember watching a rbo made by you, but i watched one made by Namespoofer, the one where he goes to the gauntlet after Torizo... i think that is the only optimized RBO TAS i watched.
Joined: 11/26/2010
Posts: 454
Location: New York, US
Wow that's awesome I hope you guys finish before 2012 begins!!!
I never actually seen your old RBO can you post an .smv of it? I like having a them to look back on in reference. As a runner of the game you never know what you might find.
I'm sure it can be done with any sufficiently fast projectile (most of them accelerate indefinitely) if conditions are right, but I can't remember offhand if there's a single door behind such an obstacle that opens slow enough the player actually has to wait for it.
Warp wrote:
Edit: I think I understand now: It's my avatar, isn't it? It makes me look angry.
I used that in my 100% run to open the door to the springball room before that creature had destroyed all the blocks, which was useful since I didn't have wavebeam at that point.
Disabling Screw Attack is for chumps
Fairly pointless since you need to pause anyways, but it still saves a few realtime frames and, well, it's fancy.
Recorded with v17.
That's cool. Btw, doesn't Screw Attack save time when scaping, in the 4th room by using it to destroy the pirate in the left wall instead of damage boosting to the right, or damage boosting is faster?
That's cool. Btw, doesn't Screw Attack save time when scaping, in the 4th room by using it to destroy the pirate in the left wall instead of damage boosting to the right, or damage boosting is faster?
Screw attacking through it is probably? a few frames faster. Not that detrimental though.
Hum... yeah, i thought it would be just some frames faster if it would even be faster.
Now, does anyone have plans on improving the 100% run? Maybe using that "One trip to Norfair" route... Still don't know if Norfair would be faster or slower in just one trip though due to lack of equipment. Anyway, i'm just curious...
Joined: 11/14/2005
Posts: 1058
Location: United States
If I had to wager a guess, I would say that doing all of Norfair in a single trip would be much slower. The main problem would be the gold torizo and ridley fights. Without plasma beam or a full stock of super missiles, these fights would last considerably longer.
I like seeing input on the forums about possible improvements to the 100% run. I will work up a list of things that I think can be changed or improved in the current run. Maybe if there is enough changes to warrant a new run, we can create some sort of team/community tas in the future.
I was thinking the same. Having only Spazer would really make the fights slower and the best place to loose time is in boss fights unfortunatelly.
A team to improve the 100% run would be awesome and i think the run would be as fucking good as the new RBO you guys came out with. Also, i said that before, i think every new run for this game should be made by a Super Metroid TAS Team, that would warrant the craziest result.
Joined: 11/26/2010
Posts: 454
Location: New York, US
I completely agree with you Reeve!!!! Every Super Metroid TAS from now on should be done as a Team!!!!!!!! So come on Saturn, Taco, Kriole, Hero, Cpadolf and hopefully Namespoofer (if anyone can get a hold of him) get together and give the fans what they want. That would be amazing if that whole group teamed up. I'd add JXQ but, he said he gave up TASing this game a long time ago. I would hope he joins the group too but, that's his decision. That would be the biggest Super Group TAS Videos has ever seen!!!!!!!
This took quite some time to achieve, since framerules and lack of knowledge when it comes to Super Metroid RNG made it hard to determine when the Super Missile would drop
Allow me to give a little insight. The random number is a 16-bit value at $7E05E5 and there's a subroutine that generates the next random number when called. This subroutine is called every frame in the main game loop, so shouldn't be affected by lag. Almost every time the random number is read, the subroutine is called to generate the next one, and there are about 100 different places in the entire game that read the random number.
The routine that generates the new random number: NewRandom = 5 x Randomlow byte + 5 x Randomhigh byte + 18.
EDIT: NewRandom = 5 x Random + 0x111
The drop routine calls the RNG straight away and uses the low byte of this new random value as a 'target', the number is regenerated if the 'target' is 0. It loads the drop chances of the enemy: small energy, big energy, nothing, missiles, super missiles and power bombs; which should total to 0xFF.
A flag is set ($0E1A) when Samus' health + reserve is <= 30, this flag is unset when she has recovered (health + reserve) to 50. If this flag is set, then only the chances of energy are considered, so for the following, the chance of nothing & missiles etc. are considered 0. Conversely, if Samus has max health & reserve, or max missiles etc., then that cannot be dropped, and its chance is considered 0.
First: the routine subtracts the sum of the chances of supers and bombs from 0xFF; and sums the chances for energy, nothing and missiles; and calculates the former divide the latter. The routines then multiplies the chance of small energy by this fraction and checks if it's greater than the 'target', making the enemy drop it if it is; if it's not, it multiplies the (original) fraction by the chance of big energy, making the enemy drop it if it exceeds the 'target'; then with nothing, and finally missiles.
If health, nothing nor missiles are dropped, then the chance of super missiles are checked against the 'target', not multiplied by the fraction this time; and finally, power bombs are dropped if the chance of super missiles + power bombs exceeds the 'target'.
If none of these managed to exceed the 'target', or the enemy's drop chances pointer is 0x0000, then the default drop is nothing (this does happen).
Final notes:
There are a few odd routines that change $05E5 other than the RNG routine:
I think that's it, though there may be a little more to the water one.
Happy TASing, don't suppose anyone wants to put this into a useful Lua script...
Joined: 11/14/2005
Posts: 1058
Location: United States
Useful stuff there, P.JBoy. Thanks for sharing!
Does anyone have any route changes that could benefit the 100% run?
One idea I had was to delay getting the r-tank and the 3 missile containers in the area where the first super missile pack is collected until the green binstar clean up session. This would allow samus to use power bombs on the wall behind the rtank chozo statue when getting the missile tanks. It might prove faster for in-game purposes.
I also had the idea of getting the charge beam early. Though it would only be beneficial if the wave beam was also collected. It would allow wrap around shots in the WS attic, croco area, and the landing site when going through the acid gauntlet en route to the etank. Getting the charge beam early costs like 5 seconds.
Getting the wave beam early would be nice, but I am really struggling to see how it would save any time. It would require much more time at the pipe bugs in order to survive the heated rooms before and after the wave beam. Also, the way the current run does it is very seamless, as dropping down from the speed booster area and going back up is another 5 seconds lost. The main time saved with having the wave beam would be on the gold torizo and maybe 1 second saved on draygon+botwoon. The wave gates can all be open almost as fast using missiles now, so I cannot think of any other reason for having the wave beam early.
I would like to hear what other people have to say on possible changes, or comments on the above mentioned stuff.
That R-tank was pretty crucial to surviving the run to speedbooster (entered norfair with full health and took pretty much every available energy drop leading up to the speedbooster, and still had to have 60 energy in the R-tank). So I don't think that could be saved for later unless there's some convenient E-tank laying around that I'm forgetting.
Picking up Wave after LN saves around 5 seconds (accounting for the detour of taking it early vs late and for the worse equipment you traverse the room with), and it might be possible to get away with only 2 more rounds of refills at the pipe bugs, another 3 seconds, which makes it about 13 seconds lost at best to grab Charge and Wave early. Wave saves 4 seconds or so on Gold Torizo (going by JXQ's run vs mine anyway), and then probably another few seconds in total across the entire game. I don't know how much time all the wrap around shots save combined (or if sacrifices would have to be made in order to preserve energy for them), but it sounds like it'd be a pretty close call either way.
Joined: 11/14/2005
Posts: 1058
Location: United States
Very good points. I figured it may be possible to get 2 big e's from the hanging guys right below the pipe bugs, and then maybe get lucky with 4 or 5 big e's on the pipe bugs themselves. This would nullify the need for the rtank I think.
Something else I thought would be cool, would be if we use the ridley KO grab to trigger a free shinespark. It would require doing a CF right before he dies, but getting a free shinespark would save over 85 frames on the time spent charging one up in the etank room.
One idea I had was to delay getting the r-tank and the 3 missile containers in the area where the first super missile pack is collected until the green binstar clean up session. This would allow samus to use power bombs on the wall behind the rtank chozo statue when getting the missile tanks. It might prove faster for in-game purposes.
Interesting idea, so you could lay the pb when mockballing under the Chozo and you can mockball with high speed straigh to the second missile pack too. It would be great if you had enough missiles to open the door to the Reserve Tank area, so when going for the Brinstar Clean-up you could shoot a slow beam and run and jump straight through the door, mockballing under the chozo statue (if the jump was even possible). It seems your idea wouldn't be hard to test. One negative point, as far as i could notice, is the long room with that crabs in the ground and the flyers comming to you. You wouldn't have missiles to handle all the enemies and would have to just mockball through the crab.
hero of the day wrote:
I also had the idea of getting the charge beam early. Though it would only be beneficial if the wave beam was also collected. It would allow wrap around shots in the WS attic, croco area, and the landing site when going through the acid gauntlet en route to the etank. Getting the charge beam early costs like 5 seconds.
I thought about the wrap-around shot on crocs lair before for TASers when i found it myself, as i couldn't charge the shinespark in the small terrain where croc die, but thought it wouldn't be benefitial because, for example in Cpadolf's run, he had to handle with health management and a shinespark would only cost more health... regarding the gauntlet wrap around... are you talking about opening the gauntlet door beeing next to the northeast door of the landing site? If so, when testing it in realtime, it proved to be only 1 second faster than jumping and speedbolling the blocks in the gauntlet entry and then spacejumping through the room, but maybe it could be faster in a TAS, finding a way to open the gauntlet door faster than we do. Also you would need more health there too, wouldn't it be a problem? Regarding the Attic room, it seems sexy, but as you have to go to the left to kill all enemies anyway and the last ones are close to the door, it seems it wouldn't be faster than the strat Cpadolf used, unless you are going to use that speedball strat, using the grapple in the eletric tube to gain height and reach the door... These three Wrap around doesn't seem to save the 5 seconds you will loose collecting the charge beam, but i could be wrong anyway.
hero of the day wrote:
Getting the wave beam early would be nice, but I am really struggling to see how it would save any time. It would require much more time at the pipe bugs in order to survive the heated rooms before and after the wave beam. Also, the way the current run does it is very seamless, as dropping down from the speed booster area and going back up is another 5 seconds lost. The main time saved with having the wave beam would be on the gold torizo and maybe 1 second saved on draygon+botwoon. The wave gates can all be open almost as fast using missiles now, so I cannot think of any other reason for having the wave beam early.
Added to the time you'll loose collecting the charge beam early it will be 10 seconds of loss. It could be used to kill Ridley faster if you guys would go for a Norfair one trip, but as you stated that one trip would be slower mainly due to the bosses fight, so i can't see either another use for Wave Beam.
Regarding the wrap around shot, it can be used to open the left door of the blue brinstar energy tank area, when comming back from the invisible bridge. You can shoot diagonally to the right in a certain position when falling down, but i don't it could be usefull. Also, it's possible to use a wrap around shot in that Norfair room after croc, the one with grapple blocks, and a missile in the left, next to a super gate, but again it could be useless.
hero of the day wrote:
Something else I thought would be cool, would be if we use the ridley KO grab to trigger a free shinespark. It would require doing a CF right before he dies, but getting a free shinespark would save over 85 frames on the time spent charging one up in the etank room.
Didn't know the KO grab would give a free shinespark like Draygon... That would be cool to see, but you would have to save some supers you would use in Ridley...
Also, i mentioned collecting the early powerbomb in pink brinstar before, which would save time on high-jump area (if you're going there before speedbooster) and could be used to open the bubble room shortcut, but it seems it would not be an interesting idea.
I should have said something dumb here, as i'm not familiar with TASing.
Edit: I remembered now that most of the time the early power bomb saves is from not having to go for a second trip in Kraid's area.
Very good points. I figured it may be possible to get 2 big e's from the hanging guys right below the pipe bugs, and then maybe get lucky with 4 or 5 big e's on the pipe bugs themselves. This would nullify the need for the rtank I think...
Hmm, it could be possible. Unless the hell run could be improved by enough, you'd need all 7 potential drops in the room to be a big e though, but with enough improvements it could be brought down to 6 + 1 super missile. If it's not possible to get that super you might have to slow down somewhere else to get an extra. When I think about it though, whether that R-tank would be saved for later or not, it would almost definitely be faster to get enough energy to skip that recharge animation anyway, as it takes a full second. If it's possible to manipulate the drops well enough that is.
Joined: 11/26/2010
Posts: 454
Location: New York, US
hero of the day wrote:
Useful stuff there, P.JBoy. Thanks for sharing!
Does anyone have any route changes that could benefit the 100% run?
One idea I had was to delay getting the r-tank and the 3 missile containers in the area where the first super missile pack is collected until the green binstar clean up session. This would allow samus to use power bombs on the wall behind the rtank chozo statue when getting the missile tanks. It might prove faster for in-game purposes.
I also had the idea of getting the charge beam early. Though it would only be beneficial if the wave beam was also collected. It would allow wrap around shots in the WS attic, croco area, and the landing site when going through the acid gauntlet en route to the etank. Getting the charge beam early costs like 5 seconds.
Getting the wave beam early would be nice, but I am really struggling to see how it would save any time. It would require much more time at the pipe bugs in order to survive the heated rooms before and after the wave beam. Also, the way the current run does it is very seamless, as dropping down from the speed booster area and going back up is another 5 seconds lost. The main time saved with having the wave beam would be on the gold torizo and maybe 1 second saved on draygon+botwoon. The wave gates can all be open almost as fast using missiles now, so I cannot think of any other reason for having the wave beam early.
I would like to hear what other people have to say on possible changes, or comments on the above mentioned stuff.
Funny I thought of the exact same think for console, but then I realized we would be able to do because the Wrecked Ship can be a bitch early on. So I never tested it myself but, for TAS conditions that would be very interesting it if it proves to be faster!!!!
Yea Wave Beam early might save time. Would it be possible to delay Crocomire and make it through the Wreaked Ship without the Varia Suit? If so you can delay Kraid and Crocomire and kill them with Plasma Beam. Cpadolfs route was really amazing its hard to even think about ways of improving it. His execution is still great to this day I would love to see how much it can be improved!!!!
Edit: Never mind I forgot about all the Grapple Beam Rape Cpadolf does!!!! Delaying Varia would be interesting and possibly faster if its even possible.
hero of the day wrote:
Something else I thought would be cool, would be if we use the ridley KO grab to trigger a free shinespark. It would require doing a CF right before he dies, but getting a free shinespark would save over 85 frames on the time spent charging one up in the etank room.
I didn't even know you could do that. Can you get charge in that room and then let him grab you for a free Shine Spark?
Something else I thought would be cool, would be if we use the ridley KO grab to trigger a free shinespark. It would require doing a CF right before he dies, but getting a free shinespark would save over 85 frames on the time spent charging one up in the etank room.
I didn't even know you could do that. Can you get charge in that room and then let him grab you for a free Shine Spark?
He wants to use a Cristal Flash right before Ridley dies, so the Power Bomb would trigger the death animation and he would grab Samus, cancelling the CF animation and giving a free Shinespark, like Draygon, if i understood correctly, but if this is right than he would waste time not jumping on Ridley right after the final hit. One thing that would be cool though, if the CF is really faster, would be to manipulate Ridley to grab Samus as soon as she lands the power bomb for the CF, and then manipulate him to bring Samus to the exact position to trigger the CF, so you would save time by not having to wait Samus to enter in the CF animation, though, as Ridley would already be with Samus in his claws, i don't know if samus would still have the free Shinespark.
