160x10=1600/60 is 26.5 seconds plus 3.5 more seconds to kill with 10 super missiles. The total fight is around 30 seconds long.
Using the charge/wave/ice/spazer is takes 40 shots at exactly 1 second a shot. Including the 10 super missiles the fight would be about 44 seconds long.
Including the fact that if you use a super missile between every powerbombshield, the super missiles only costs 2-3 frames to shoot, not 20. That puts it down to 27 seconds. And also, using the wave beam only allows you to keep some missiles... for whatever reason you'd want them.
However, the problem is the pausescreen. It should cost around 3-4 seconds, which puts the gain down to 13 seconds only. During the motherbrain fight you have to somehow avoid losing 13 seconds. It should actually not be that very hard.
Although spazer does save pretty much time when it comes to refilling in norfair, this could be substituted with the missiles which are not used in the room before Ridley.
It works out nicely, the only thing one needs to test is Mother Brain with powerbombshields then compare it to the real mojo.
Edit: I did some research how much powerbombshielding costs framewase. Ingame it's about 160, with a super missile inbetween. Realtime its 185 with a super missile inbetween.
On another note, skipping spazer avoids 2 door transitions.
Hurray!
I 1-uped Taco's diagonal room framecount while still getting all the pick-ups, and now the best framecount is a nice even 290!
Cpadolf's 100% diagonal room was 292, and Taco's best was 291.
Click
I also realize it is only a frame, but that is a tough room. =\
Edit: Also: http://www.youtube.com/user/Kriole?ob=1
Trained by Cpadolf. Mission: To Perfect.
Hero says: Yeah bro, I almost went super saiyan once
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Have we already tried speed-boosting (jumping) through MB after taking out the glass container? Or maybe as at least an entertainment part? Unless MB is a steel wall that Samus can't fly past through, this is another thing to look at.
I think I've heard that shinesparking into mother brain is the fastest way to suicide in Super Metroid (giving you 200 damage per frame, or something like that). Trying to speedboost through will probably not work very well, but it would be nice to see exactly what happens.
Tada!
Due to the tremendous amounts of lag I doubt this new strategy through the room would be of any help in a realtime oriented run though.
Very nice. I completely forgot about the temporary blue suit trick here, which is the only way to break that last pillar. It's 34 frames faster than the other CWJ method, but still 40 ingame frames slower than the shinespark.
Hero:
Very interesting route idea you got there. Skipping Spazer indeed seems to be a promising option, however I should correct that it only saves 10 sec (or 15 if counting the door transitions). Getting the LN PB will cost around 4 sec, so the true realtime gain would only be ~11 sec there.
As for Mother Brain, I actually planned to show this strategy in my Redesign run when fighting her, but since it will be of use for the new route, I don't mind spoiling it: It is well possible to hit Mother Brain with all 4 projectiles of the PB Wave combo, it just requires a 74 frame delay compared to a 3-hit one, which in the end is definitely faster if not having Spazer:
4-hit PB-Wave Combo on Mother BrainYouTube Video
That way you will only lose ~9,5 sec compared to charged Spazer/Wave/Ice. The faster Ridley fight with the delays to refill all PBs before him will pretty exactly equal this loss again, just like the faster Kraid's Lair and Ice Beam with Speed Booster will equal the pipe bug refills during Norfair, and the PB refills before Mother Brain. This leaves us with the same gain of 11 realtime sec of the Spazer skip. Now we also have to count in entering the menu twice (to switch off Ice for the Wave Combos on MB), which is another 5,4 sec delay in total, so the final gain would only be around 5,5 sec realtime or pretty exactly same ingame time.
Pretty stupid as you see, but this route would definitely make the run somewhat more varying, and therefore more entertaining to watch, and despite that it will be much harder to optimize due to the additional luck manipulation at the refills, it should be worth a try.
Another interesting option would be to use the same route again, but get the Spazer instead of the LN PB this time. The 2 additional door transitions to Spazer allow to cancel out the double menu entrance at MB, which yet again makes the completion time pretty exactly same fast in both real and ingame time again. 3 different routes, which all seem to achieve nearly the same completion time in the end. Not a easy decision for the author of the future realtime oriented any%...
EDIT:
Added YouTube video.
Since they are so close spaced together I think that as long as there isn't concrete proof that one route is faster than the other, the most entertaining one should be used (skipping spazer IMO). In the end it is up to the author(s) though.
Joined: 11/14/2005
Posts: 1058
Location: United States
Why would you need to enter the menu twice?
The ridley fight won't require a pause menu because the wave beam would be the only beam collected at that point. The only time the menu would be accessed is half way through the MB fight to turn off the ice beam.
Why would you need to enter the menu twice?
The ridley fight won't require a pause menu because the wave beam would be the only beam collected at that point. The only time the menu would be accessed is half way through the MB fight to turn off the ice beam.
It will be slightly faster to turn on the Ice Beam for MB's last 6000 HP left after the combos.
Charged Wave only: 150 HP; 6000/150 = 40 shots/sec
Charged Wave/Ice: 180 HP; 6000/180 = 34 shots/sec
Entering the menu one more time to activate Ice costs ~2,7 sec, so you will still save 3,3 sec in realtime during the fight.
I took the time and compared the two routes with different roomstrategy smv's. This is my conclusion:
Spazer take 1484 realtime frames to collect (Powerrangers), skipping spazer costs 150 frames (Taco).
Kagoball room with the PB tank takes 1320 frames to collect (NameSpoofer), skipping the tank costs 723 frames (HotD).
Ridley with waveshields costs 1680 frames (RBOv4), Ridley with spazer/wave/ice costs 2600 frames (common sense).
Mother brain with waveshields costs 4340 (Saturn), MB with spazer/wave/ice costs 3600 frames (common sense).
Now, having speedbooster for both Kraid and Ice Beam also gives a slight gain, Kraid's lair is about 220 frames, and Ice Beam I just approximated to 80 frames.
Now comparing the gains vs the losses.
Skipping Spazer: 1484 - 150 = +1334 realtime frames
Ridley PB tank: 723 - 1320 = -597 realtime frames
Ridley: 2600 - 1680 = +920 realtime frames
Mother Brain: 3600 - 4340 = -740 realtime frames
That gives 917 realtime frames. Now taking away the pausescreen (164 frames), then adding the 300 frames for Ice Beam and Kraid's lair gives 1053 realtime frame gain. Then we have to take away a little for the pipebug refill, let's say 45 frames. So ultimately, this new route would be 1008 frames faster, unless I have overlooked something; be sure to inform me about that.
unless I have overlooked something; be sure to inform me about that.
Well you'd have to sacrifice some time from having less health in LN, some time from having to restock on PB's before ridley (and possibly a little in tourian too), and I think the pipebug refills would take a little longer. But 600ish frames sounds pretty resonable at least.
unless I have overlooked something; be sure to inform me about that.
Well you'd have to sacrifice some time from having less health in LN, some time from having to restock on PB's before ridley (and possibly a little in tourian too), and I think the pipebug refills would take a little longer. But 600ish frames sounds pretty resonable at least.
Oh yeah, I completely forgot the pillarshinespark skip.
Power bombs for tourian will be no problem, the metroids will drop enough power bombs. Also, not having ice beam for pre-ridley should save some time.
moozooh wrote:
Joined: 11/14/2005
Posts: 1058
Location: United States
I think the gain in kraid's area is way more than that. I think it is actually about 360 frames faster with the speed booster.
Nice to hear you are using the route Kriole. I wish you guys luck with it.
Impusled rage..
Doing a new ingame-oriented any% with none other than.. Cpadolf!
Progress: At Phantoon.. Will be here for a while.
Trained by Cpadolf. Mission: To Perfect.
Hero says: Yeah bro, I almost went super saiyan once
My SM-RBO
Current Project(s):
1)I don't TAS anymore! Pay me!
Since we are working on a new route Taco and I decided to post our LN WIP. Although it's kinda obsoleted by another smv which no longer is in our possession, I'll just go ahead and roughly describe the differences in those 2 smv's.
-Jumping through the Spazer door to save real-time frames.
-Jumping through the door leading to mini-Kraid's room to remove lagframes.
-Improving the Kraidfight by 9 frames through standing closer to the spikes before the first jump.
-Improving the cwj after Ice Beam by 3 frames.
-Avoiding the stutter before the green bubble room to save real-time frames.
-The Wave Beam area is frigging sweet. Be sure not to miss it. (Before you ask, it was 4 frames faster than the morphball method)
-Nothing has been changed in LN, the obsoleting smv stopped right after the elevator-ride.
The obsoleting smv was about 98 real-time frames and 15 ingame frames faster than this one. Be sure to notice, that when the smv ends we are already more than 900 ingame frames ahead of Hero of the Day. I cannot remember the real number, and can't be arsed to check, but we never expected to reach that number so quickly.
Also, the super missile on the Ki-hunter was used because we thought it was mandatory for it to be used to be able to refill in that room, NameSpoofer and Cpadolf proved us wrong here.
Anyways. Enjoy.
Edit: Uuuh, forgot to mention we redid because we decided to aim for real-time, in the making of the ingame smv we saw the huge gains and thought 900 was easier than we expected it to be.
Although it's kinda obsoleted by another smv which no longer is in our possession
What do you mean by this?
I accidently overwrote both the real smv and the backup smv, which requires insane amounts of moron to do. And unfortunately, I hadn't sent it to anyone yet, so I could not badger them for the smv back =/
I accidently overwrote both
which requires insane amounts of moron to do.
HAHAHHAHAHAHAHA...
That sounds just like you.... hahahahahaaaaaaaaaa
Speaking of obseletion and improvements.. Myself and Cpadolf have found quite a few improvements over that SMV, and will continue to do so. =)
Trained by Cpadolf. Mission: To Perfect.
Hero says: Yeah bro, I almost went super saiyan once
My SM-RBO
Current Project(s):
1)I don't TAS anymore! Pay me!
I accidently overwrote both the real smv and the backup smv, which requires insane amounts of moron to do. And unfortunately, I hadn't sent it to anyone yet, so I could not badger them for the smv back =/
