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Posted: 6/17/2004 2:39 AM

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nesrocks

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Joined: 5/1/2004
Posts: 4096
Location: Rio, Brazil

what do you mean? super nes has some vector-based graphics features, so it may improve from 60 fps. but not on nes. and it's no reason to double the file size.

aka Nesrocks http://www.youtube.com/user/UoBtExFODA https://nesrocks.com https://twitter.com/bitinkstudios

Posted: 6/17/2004 2:43 AM

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Phil

Active player (411)

Joined: 3/16/2004
Posts: 2623
Location: America, Québec

On nes too

Posted: 6/17/2004 2:47 AM

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nesrocks

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Joined: 5/1/2004
Posts: 4096
Location: Rio, Brazil

hmmm nes has no vector based graphics. only sprite animation... what it has is sprite movement (from one side to another) take the gradius movie for example. it takes advantage of nes 30 fps to "warp" from one location to another. if 60 fps improves the movement, by the time he tries to "warp" the ship would appear inside the wall, but wouldn't result in a hit. wouldn't that seem just wrong?

aka Nesrocks http://www.youtube.com/user/UoBtExFODA https://nesrocks.com https://twitter.com/bitinkstudios

Posted: 6/17/2004 2:51 AM

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Phil

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Joined: 3/16/2004
Posts: 2623
Location: America, Québec

It seems you don't understand what FPS means.

Posted: 6/17/2004 2:57 AM

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nesrocks

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Joined: 5/1/2004
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Location: Rio, Brazil

......... now i have to explain what fps means... sigh... fps = frames per second. the amount of frames shown to make an animation per second. animation can be traditional frame-by-frame, or it can be mathematically arranged. if you have 30 different images you can show them sequentially in 1 second to have 1 second of 30 fps animation (duh...) on mathematically arranged animation (such as vector animation) you tell objects to move. can be vertices or full images made of pixels. if you tell something to move from position A to position B in 1 second, the amount of frames shown to the user will depend on his hardware or the max fps set by the developer. if nes says that the gradius ship must move from position 120x234 to position 130x245 in 0.1 second, it will do so in 3 frames. that means 3 ships positions shown on screen. if you change it to 60 fps, 6 ships will be shown on the same 0.1 second. that means the ship will most likely be shown INSIDE the wall.

aka Nesrocks http://www.youtube.com/user/UoBtExFODA https://nesrocks.com https://twitter.com/bitinkstudios

Posted: 6/17/2004 8:33 AM

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Bisqwit

Editor, Active player (297)

Joined: 3/8/2004
Posts: 7469
Location: Arzareth

FODA wrote:

if nes says that the gradius ship must move from position 120x234 to position 130x245 in 0.1 second, it will do so in 3 frames. that means 3 ships positions shown on screen. if you change it to 60 fps, 6 ships will be shown on the same 0.1 second.

This is correct, assuming you talk about video recording frames. NES always handles 60 frames per second, no matter how many of those frames you'll include in your video file.

FODA wrote:

that means the ship will most likely be shown INSIDE the wall.

But even if a fact, what the heck has this to do with the above comment? It doesn't change how the game WORKS. It does collision checks 60 times per second, no matter what framerate you're recording. NES emulates 60 frames per second. We record 60 frames per second. It is as simple as this. You just explained yourself how it creates a much smoother and pleasant looking animation than 30 fps (in fact, twice as smooth), but the more important reason is that sometimes things in games have things that change at 60 fps rate - most notably blinking. If a character gets hurt, it blinks so that the character is visible at even frames and invisible at odd frames. If you encode at 30 FPS, you will either see a non-blinking character or a totally invisible character, because you will only get the odd or even frames, not both. Some games blink at 15 Hz or even slower, but there are games where the blinking is 30 Hz (30 cycles (cycle = at least 2 distinct states) per second). Battle of Olympus is one example of those.

Posted: 6/17/2004 12:13 PM

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nesrocks

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Joined: 5/1/2004
Posts: 4096
Location: Rio, Brazil

notice i mentioned that the gradius ship would show inside the wall, but that wouldn't affect the way it colides. 60 fps is wrong because that's not how real nes display graphics on a tv i created a movie using 15 fps and it looks REALLY good. it does. a regular player would NOT be able to say there's something different from a real nes playing. the animation is smooth. about the blinking stuff. will it blink faster if u play the movie on famtasia with 60 fps patch? here is how i recorded my movie with camtasia: i was getting a lot of dropped frames trying to record the movie, so i did it this way. i set up famtasia (with 240 scanlines and 60 fps patch applied) to play the game at 10% speed. then i set up camtasia to capture 3 frames every second. and play at 30 fps. that way i got 0 dropped frames the whole movie. on battletoads there is nothing that blinks, so it worked very well.

aka Nesrocks http://www.youtube.com/user/UoBtExFODA https://nesrocks.com https://twitter.com/bitinkstudios

Posted: 6/17/2004 12:33 PM

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Bisqwit

Editor, Active player (297)

Joined: 3/8/2004
Posts: 7469
Location: Arzareth

You still don't get it, do you... Phil, would you like to create a demonstrational animation? Create a scene from some game that scrolls moderately fast and encode it using 15 fps, 30 fps and 60 fps (three videos). Preferably something like 1 MB each. But I must admit,

FODA wrote:

i set up famtasia (with 240 scanlines and 60 fps patch applied) to play the game at 10% speed. then i set up camtasia to capture 3 frames every second. and play at 30 fps. that way i got 0 dropped frames the whole movie. on battletoads there is nothing that blinks, so it worked very well.

this sounds like a clever way to encode 30 fps on a machine that can't actually play 30 fps. Though I have to wonder what it does for audio. But it's not like it still can't mistime and record the same frame twice and skip the next. Btw, your saying that NES displays 30 fps is only partially true. NES handles internally 60 fps, and puts the 60 fps to the display circuitry. However, it's interleaved on the screen. The screen _will_ display all frames, but it will display two frames at once, interleaved. So just a plain 30 fps encoding will indeed be a loss in quality, because you are completely discarding half of the movie. 60 fps does not discard anything, but it is not exactly what would be displayed on TV. It's better than what would be displayed on TV.

Posted: 6/17/2004 1:04 PM

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nesrocks

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Joined: 5/1/2004
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Location: Rio, Brazil

thanx. i didn't record audio at that playback, i played again at 100% speed just to record audio (wich i did with soundforge). if u make 1 mb each for those videos, the 15 fps one will get much further in the game then the 60 fps one... i watched battletoads level 3 at 15 fps and i gotta say it doesn't look that smooth, but it doesn't look bad at all either. and it's just that level. i think it really pays off to have a file that is half the size. of course 30 fps is better and 60 fps is even better for viewing, but 15 fps looks VERY satisfatory + it's much smaller size.

aka Nesrocks http://www.youtube.com/user/UoBtExFODA https://nesrocks.com https://twitter.com/bitinkstudios

Posted: 6/17/2004 1:18 PM

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kwyjibo

Joined: 4/25/2004
Posts: 22

FODA wrote:

i watched battletoads level 3 at 15 fps and i gotta say it doesn't look that smooth, but it doesn't look bad at all either. and it's just that level. i think it really pays off to have a file that is half the size. of course 30 fps is better and 60 fps is even better for viewing, but 15 fps looks VERY satisfatory + it's much smaller size.

15fps is just evil.

Posted: 6/17/2004 1:56 PM

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Phil

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Joined: 3/16/2004
Posts: 2623
Location: America, Québec

Here is the 15 fps movie As you can see it's not very smooth. Here is the 30 fps movie Smoother but .... Another 30 fps As you can see there's a difference between the 2 30 fps movie.One that the 2nd player stay invisible much longer. The 60 fps movie AH the god of our NES movie. As you can see the 2nd player is flashing.Something that you can't see wither lower fps.

Posted: 6/17/2004 2:29 PM

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nesrocks

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Joined: 5/1/2004
Posts: 4096
Location: Rio, Brazil

ok, u've proven that somethings happen faster than 30 fps... but i still don't think it's worth to download double file size just to see that he blinks. (wich in that case was merely a nes sprite limitation). i'd say that the first 30 fps one looks better as he blinks for very short moment. he's not invincible, that limitation looks ugly and confusing and it's not worth double download size...

aka Nesrocks http://www.youtube.com/user/UoBtExFODA https://nesrocks.com https://twitter.com/bitinkstudios

Posted: 6/17/2004 2:32 PM

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Phil

Active player (411)

Joined: 3/16/2004
Posts: 2623
Location: America, Québec

It is the same thing with Castlevania when it is invincible want another video?And other games too.

Posted: 6/17/2004 2:37 PM

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Bisqwit

Editor, Active player (297)

Joined: 3/8/2004
Posts: 7469
Location: Arzareth

Regardless, 60 fps is noticeably smoother to watch than 30 fps, and it does not actually add that much overhead. For most movies, doubling the framerate has only added about 15% to the file size while keeping the quality about the same. But anyway, I'll gladly exchange image quality for better animation (as long as it doesn't make the image quality much worse). Smoother motion may also help the motion detection routines of the codec, so it might even improve the quality/size ratio. This 60 fps example posted by Phil was a little bad as an example because it only featured 30 fps animation: the screen scrolled on even frames and the characters moved on odd frames. It didn't demonstrate how 60 fps makes it smoother... But it did prove the blinking point.

Posted: 6/18/2004 10:23 AM

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Frenom

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Joined: 3/30/2004
Posts: 359
Location: Borlänge - Sweden

I made an another example. This is from Castlevania Bloodlines to Genesis At this FPS you can nearly see whats happen. http://frenom.areta.org/15fps.avi Here you can accually see whats going on.. http://frenom.areta.org/30fps.avi Hey you can see the whole animation :) http://frenom.areta.org/60fps.avi But in my opinion I prefer smoothness and 60FPS. I rater wait some few moment longer for a 60FPS movie then a 15 or a 30FPS movie :)

Wheeeehaaa.. Yaaayy..

Posted: 6/18/2004 10:44 AM

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