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Firstly this is my first ever submitted TAS and secondly I could hardly of picked a more difficult and cursed game. I wasn’t really aware of that to begin with, but that was probably the factor that got me through in the end, since during the Marble to Labyrinth stages I constantly had “Oh no am I gonna be next to drop next to drop this game”. The whole process from begining to end, starting from being mildly interested to finally submitting it took about four months, but there was maybe six to seven weeks where I didn’t do any work on it whatsoever. I did a test run up until the point where I collect the last emerald in mainly 3-10% speeds with no frame counter, it was mainly just to get an idea and understanding of the game and to work out how to use GENS. The real run used 3% speed in the first stage and then frame advance from there on in.
I like to thank mainly JXQ for his great coaching and his previous run which I treated like a natural intended path. Although there was no justification for thinking it at the time, I was actually worried incase he was offended by my run for taking his ideas and applying them in a way that he would not approve. I wouldn’t personally be to bothered if someone wants to lower the ingame timer (as opposed to the real game time) by not stopping to avoid larger bonuses that impact on time and then copying my input from all the other stages. On a side note I’d like to thank Xebra for his various tips at the start, nfq for his various WIP’s at the start, which I was able to improve on later and philipptr for his WIP’s on the special stages.
  • Aims to collect all emeralds
  • Aims for fastest time
  • Avoid delays caused by bonus effects
  • Abuses programming errors
  • Manipulates luck
  • Abuses left+right movement
  • Aims for a low score
The most unique aspect of this run was delaying to avoid larger bonuses, but if I’m able to complete a stage in less than 23:333... Then I would do that. To those who disprove of that I would argue that this has a minimal effect on the overall run. However, there were three reasons for doing it
  1. Complaints that real time runs were being timed unfairly i.e. stages where being timed individually while other games included the delays inbetween as well.
  2. It makes it easier overall, but I tried to be as fast as possible while skidding just before the end. It also differentiates this from the previous in game run.
  3. It’s a goal that’s consistent throughout the game, e.g. the amount of rings has an effect on the end stage bonus, while getting +50 rings has a large delay caused by getting an extra continue.
Some say the special stages are boring, but I think that’s purely because of the simple backgrounds and music. I didn’t find them boring to work on, but they were very frustrating because of the dodgy programming involved. The stages jerk once every eight frames making the future very hard to predict. Unlike normal stages nearly all the collision is square, making corner collisions a near formality, but I took advantage of this by this using this feature to kill off and control Sonics speed. I fairly sure that most stages were done to an optimal standard. I especially enjoyed stages where bouncers could be manipulated.
Points of interest
  • Green Hill 2 - This is too difficult to see in real time but at the start when sonic hits the bee and goes through the wall he partially zips through it at the end which saves 20 frames over what would normally be done.
  • Marble 1 - I’ve actually done this quicker than the ingame run despite the fact I’ve collected +50 rings
  • Marble 2 - This took an insane amount of planning. Everthing was planned to the last detail beforehand.
  • Marble 3 - Before the end I was 11 frames ahead, but the moving platform was higher up so I had to increment it by two units costing 10 frames.
  • Spring Yard 3 - I personally found this the most frustrating stage to work on because of the timed delays, lag and position of moving platforms and slight randomess of how sonic reacts to and lands on certain platforms .
  • Star Light 2 - If you jump at certain frame while going fast up a slope Sonic will hit a ceiling boundary and his X coordinate will not increment he can move normally once he’s back on his feet. I took my time in gaining the fastest speed possible during the sine wave section.I could almost clear the second wall, but I had to let go of all input so that Sonic would sucessfully land on the platform below. Left+Right halfs Sonics velocity in a single frame during his running animation. This was a great surprise since I thought it was unlikely to come off. I’m kind of on a fence on whether Marble 1 or this stage was the highlight, I’ll let others peoples opinion dictate this .
  • Star Light 3 - Getting 45 was intentional to avoid getting a higher bonus thus saving 44 frames
  • Scrap Brain 1 - Refer to JXQ’s commentary if you don’t know what happens during the start.
  • Final Zone - I tried to do a little jig during it and also get 1:14 but the purpose of doing that was to terminate the movie as early as possible, it could be cancelled if sonic is moved to the left or is killed by jumping off the end of the stage.
Suggested description: Sonic’s first installement on the Mega Drive. Sonic has yet to learn the art of spin dashing. With the curse broken on this game, it was time to remove the all emerald curse, which has blighted the Sonic world.
Suggested Screenshot: Frame 00:59:16 or 3:58:37

Truncated: I fixed the formatting since it was destroying the forum layout. Don't start lines with a space unless you want monospace font. Don't start lines with Tabs at all.

adelikat: Rejecting this submission. All reasons have been well articulated in posts in the discussion. The main reason though is that the goals are not a publishable "category" of run.
1) It is far too similar to the current published run (it is 90% the same run) to warrant being published along side it.
Overall, obtaining emeralds makes it less entertaining than current run, making it a poor choice to obsolete it.
Therefore, the only reasonable choice is to reject the submission. Congratulations on making the highest quality run I have ever rejected though :) I hope you take what you have learned from this run and make an improved version of the current run. Good luck.


Mitjitsu
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I think some of you are making too big a deal of delaying at the end of the stages in order to get a lower bonus. It only affects a few stages early on plus I played the specials as well to get a low ring count and more importantly avoid collecting a continue. Its not like the entire run comprised of sloppely going through the stages and waiting for ten seconds in order to save one frame during the bonus countdown. I also don't see how slowing down for rings and avoiding damage is a legit argument. Its not a ethical to deliberately compare a 50+ ring attack to a pure speed, its simply impossible to either beat or match the same time (with the exception of 2 stages admitably) . You don't directly compare up+down 3 minute run of LthP compared to a 100% that doesn't use the up+down movement which beats the game in just under 2 hours. Truncated: I can imagine voting Yes to an improved all-emerald run also. Just not this one. I'm confused by this statement, do you mean that you spotted so many improvements that it wouldn't be worth publishing or is it because of the delays at the end of some of the earlier stages?
upthorn
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AKA wrote:
Truncated: I can imagine voting Yes to an improved all-emerald run also. Just not this one. I'm confused by this statement, do you mean that you spotted so many improvements that it wouldn't be worth publishing or is it because of the delays at the end of some of the earlier stages?
He listed his reasons
Truncated wrote:
- The wobbling is highly esthetically unpleasing. - I didn't like the decision to delay finishing to get smaller bonuses. It gives the wrong impression of how fast you really finished the level, as well as looking stupid. - I think input length only should be minimized as long as it doesn't delay the completion of the game. Use as much input as needed, but not less. - The bonus stages themselves are okay, but slowing down for the rings and taking less damage is not.
For my 2 cents about the issue of lower in-game time vs lower overall time, I would say that the Sonic 3 & Knuckles run, and Sonic 2 run, and Sonic 1 run establish a precedent for finishing the levels as fast as possible, no matter how long the score count takes. To expand on that a bit:
  • A run which completes levels as fast as possible will always be more entertaining than a run which stops just short of the goal to decrease the amount of time spent tallying the score.
  • A speedrun which is not entertaining is basically worthless, no matter how fast it completes the game, or what level of playing ability is demonstrated. The "speed" in a speedrun is a means to an end, and that end is entertainment.
  • Choosing to sacrifice entertainment for a very small increase in speed would tend to indicate that you expect your finished run to be so boring that viewers cannot stand to watch it any longer than necessary to evaluate it. And if you seem to feel the run is not worth watching, why should you expect anyone else to?
  • If you still feel you absolutely must minimize the total time of the run rather than each individual level time, you should waste a few seconds, through the whole level, doing something entertaining before you reach the goal, rather than stopping just before it, and doing nothing (or worse, twitching) until the timer is what you want. This would satisfy most vocal opponents of waiting without compromising the goal.
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Mitjitsu
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upthorn wrote:
To expand on that a bit:
  • A speedrun which is not entertaining is basically worthless, no matter how fast it completes the game, or what level of playing ability is demonstrated. The "speed" in a speedrun is a means to an end, and that end is entertainment.
  • Choosing to sacrifice entertainment for a very small increase in speed would tend to indicate that you expect your finished run to be so boring that viewers cannot stand to watch it any longer than necessary to evaluate it. And if you seem to feel the run is not worth watching, why should you expect anyone else to?
  • If you still feel you absolutely must minimize the total time of the run rather than each individual level time, you should waste a few seconds, through the whole level, doing something entertaining before you reach the goal, rather than stopping just before it, and doing nothing (or worse, twitching) until the timer is what you want. This would satisfy most vocal opponents of waiting without compromising the goal.
I agree with you somewhat, but it doesn't apply universally to everything. 1. Entertainment is purely down to opinion, I don't belive speed should be sacrificed for entertainment sake unless its generic throughout the whole movie i.e. Atro's SoR3 run.. How well a run was executed is more well established. 2. Speed is a form of entertainment. I tried to get as much action on screen as possible without adding to the length of the game. I don't know how the assumption could be made that no one would want to watch a run so boring that I would want to minimize the game length. I remember reading various topics beforehand i.e. Sonic 2 thread and someone stated that a run that minimizes the game lenght would be an acceptable run. I would also argue that Sonic 2+3 specials are more boring than Sonic 1's. Like I said in thw commentary people only think they're boring because of the simple graphics, background and music. Of course I admit that there was nothing too surprising about them. I mean what could I of done that would have been surprising although if you watch more closely they are a lot of very neat moves. 3. That was the most interesting point you made because the requests made for that were what influecened this run, someone said that if I plan to do that then they'd rather see me get to the end of the level as quickly as possible and mess around and walk past the signpost, had you said that at the time and justified it I may well have done it. The lesson here is if you don't say it then you won't get it.
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AKA wrote:
what could I of done
haha, this is by far the most unique occurrence of that typo I've ever seen. But I don't think I agree with Upthorn's third point about wasting time DURING the level, because I really feel that that would make the levels look sloppy and hurt the run. Besides, what would there be to do? Other than the levels where the standing-in-front-of-the-finish waits are mere frames and can discreetly be filtered throughout the level without anyone noticing, it'd be tricky to come up with anything interesting that wouldn't hurt the run, especially if the viewer knows how fast it SHOULD be going after, for example, having watched the other run first, like most of us. You know what I just realized? These runs are backwards in their objectives. The all-emeralds run should go for fastest stage times and the non-emeralds run should go for the fastest movie time period, including having the input cut real short. Wouldn't that make more sense? Before watching this I was really against it, but, you know when watching it, I was actually sold on the idea. I do wonder, like others, whether your choices at points of picking up rings were the most improved, and I also wonder whether getting 50 rings in ALL special-able levels and then JUST doing the six levels that are hurt the least negatively if at all would have made a better movie. Count me in the camp that love the special stages, though, Sonic 1's is my favorite especially, and I thought did a great job. It loooooks like the last two or maybe three even special stages could have improved somehow, if there was any way to hit more than one of those diamonds at a time or finding a shorter path, but yeah trying avoid continue-granting rings would definitely be a priority, good thinking. Sooooo after all of this thinking, I really don't know where I stand. I don't know if having two different runs is necessary, since the game is hardly changed, I don't know if one run would take precedence over the other, though, either, especially since getting the emeralds doesn't actually DO anything in the game but provide a better ending...But your movie does improve on some of the later levels as well. I don't know, mang.
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I don't mean to sound anxious but what are the judges stance at the moment, so far only Truncated has come forward and I was interested in what he was saying. But his improvemetns were based on stylistic changes and not actually improving the running time.
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Twisted Eye wrote:
You know what I just realized? These runs are backwards in their objectives. The all-emeralds run should go for fastest stage times and the non-emeralds run should go for the fastest movie time period, including having the input cut real short. Wouldn't that make more sense?
Heh, I see what you're saying. Make one run have purely the fastest possible start-to-finish time (like nearly all movies on the site), and the other could have optimized level times while ending with full completion since its time would not be optimal anyways. That would be a nice standard... but there's no way you could convince everybody.
Mitjitsu
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I gave my permission to the guy who hosted it, since he asked me if he could host, so heres a flash version of it. The sound loses sync with the movie but for those who haven't seen it here it is. http://www.speedruns.net/content/view/53/78/ http://video.google.co.uk/videoplay?docid=5485379802544139318&q=sonic+run I personally think the google run description is a little vague, because there is no explicit mention that I used slow down(frame advance) and savestates, it doesn't display the re-record rate either.
adelikat
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nitsuja wrote:
it looks like this run was executed well, but despite the effort that must have gone into those 50-ring routes, the most entertaining parts to me were the levels where AKA didn't get a Chaos Emerald, so I think a straight improvement of the previous run without changing goals so much would have been more fun to watch. The bonus stages didn't seem as boring as some people say they were, but there was nothing really surprising about them either.
I guess I agree with Nitsuja here. I voted no because the existing run is more entertaining than this. Nothing about obtaining the emeralds is particularly interesting enough to warrant being included in a sonic tas. Publishing this along side the other is also out of the question since it is far too similar.
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Mitjitsu
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Why does my run keep getting directly compared to JXQ's run? Many people don't seem to realise that his run is of a near optimal standard to begin with. Most of the improvements were too difficult to see unless you had a frame counter. I can't see too many people doing this run and being able to finish it, because the frustration factior is unbeliably high. I did save a lot of frames in various stages e.g. Marble 3, Spring 3 and Labarinth 3, but I lost frames through random programming mis haps and lag. Also if you looked around a lot of the threads beforehand were a lot of requests for this run to be done.
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AKA wrote:
Why does my run keep getting directly compared to JXQ's run?
Well, that's pretty simple: because they are almost indiscernable for about 90% of the playing time (with 9.9% of the rest being the bonus levels).
Warp wrote:
Edit: I think I understand now: It's my avatar, isn't it? It makes me look angry.
adelikat
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moozooh wrote:
AKA wrote:
Why does my run keep getting directly compared to JXQ's run?
Well, that's pretty simple: because they are almost indiscernable for about 90% of the playing time (with 9.9% of the rest being the bonus levels).
ditto. What would be the point of publishing this run along side JXQ's?
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Mitjitsu
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adelikat wrote:
moozooh wrote:
AKA wrote:
Why does my run keep getting directly compared to JXQ's run?
Well, that's pretty simple: because they are almost indiscernable for about 90% of the playing time (with 9.9% of the rest being the bonus levels).
ditto. What would be the point of publishing this run along side JXQ's?
If you're trying to make that out then why not just boot JXQ's run off the site despite the fact that the objectives of the game are different.
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Because his run has less boring moments and idle time in general? The question is: if both runs are nearly the same for pretty much the entire play time, should we need two of them? If not, which one should we keep, bearing in mind that both runs are greatly optimized? As you may see, the general opinion on the second question is "leave the one that is faster/less boring". In conclusion, I'd like to inoffensively point out that if you just don't want your efforts go in vain that badly, just do an improvement over JXQ's run with your present knowledge, make no stylistic mistakes pointed out by some respondents above, and no-one would have anything bad to say about it. It's up to you to make such a decision.
Warp wrote:
Edit: I think I understand now: It's my avatar, isn't it? It makes me look angry.
Mitjitsu
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moozooh wrote:
In conclusion, I'd like to inoffensively point out that if you just don't want your efforts go in vain that badly, just do an improvement over JXQ's run with your present knowledge, make no stylistic mistakes pointed out by some respondents above, and no-one would have anything bad to say about it. It's up to you to make such a decision.
I probally did over do the twiching slightly, but it wasn't way over the top as many had pointed out. I wanted to make it obvious during certain points of the game that it was tool assisted, because I would hate if this run got hijacked and people thought it was or might be genuine. I'm waiting for a decision which'll probally take months as you and I equally know will be contriversal. Once its made I'll make up my own mind on what'll do then. EDIT: Has any other run ever been rejected because of stylistic choices despite the fact that speed wise it was obviously good. EDIT_2: Still keep in mind everyone. That this run has been requested to be made several times.
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I think if it were only the stylistic choices you made that people have a problem with, this would be getting a lot more support. It is more the core concept of it, rather than any fault in your execution of the run, that's holding it back, since apparently most people aren't thrilled with the concept. Plenty of runs have been rejected because of the core concept being uninteresting (meaning, the result is less entertaining to watch than it would have been otherwise), even when the player did the best possible job of making them interesting. Never mind how much a movie was requested, because people requesting a run haven't seen it and thus don't know if it will end up being as good as they thought it would be.
adelikat
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Congrats on the new rank man, and of course the new run :)
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>EDIT: Has any other run ever been rejected because of stylistic choices despite the fact that speed wise it was obviously good. Yes, the one that immediately comes to mind is a Super Mario Bros. 3 run which was faster than the published one, but made nothing interesting during the auto-scrollers. I realize that it probably feels unfair to have your work rejected despite being of high technical quality, but I was just about to make the same judgement as adelikat. I also encourage you to make an attempt to obsolete JXQ's current run, it is obviously within your power.
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Truncated wrote:
Yes, the one that immediately comes to mind is a Super Mario Bros. 3 run which was faster than the published one, but made nothing interesting during the auto-scrollers.
I don't think this was ever submitted, just talked about as proof-of-concept.
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