Topic by Yrr

Posted: 6/25/2007 11:48 AM

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moozooh

Senior Moderator

Joined: 8/4/2005
Posts: 5777
Location: Away

klmz wrote:

My WIP here.

Very interesting. Somehow you were able to gain a frame on Yrr's new WIP in the first room. Then you lost it before the Grave Keeper soul, but immediately regained later in that room, and were already 7 frames faster in the axe armor room, 21 (!) frames faster after Creaking Skull fight, 31 frames faster after the blue crow shaft, and 38 frames faster after the skeleton knight room. That's a lot for some ~100 seconds of gameplay, especially considering it's Yrr's 3rd attempt at this game. I really think you should work together on this run. First of all, that would help reduce the strain on motivation and free some time for both of you. In the end, instead of two fast movies (at best), we will get one even faster movie, which is good for everyone.

Warp wrote:

Edit: I think I understand now: It's my avatar, isn't it? It makes me look angry.

Posted: 6/26/2007 3:56 AM

Post subject: so which is better, co-operation or competition?

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klmz

Editor, Emulator Coder, Expert player (2159)

Joined: 5/22/2007
Posts: 1134
Location: Glitchvania

moozooh wrote:

I really think you should work together on this run. First of all, that would help reduce the strain on motivation and free some time for both of you. In the end, instead of two fast movies (at best), we will get one even faster movie, which is good for everyone.

I consider my run just as a big test, which implies that I might make a full-optimized run or just leave this one there for someone's ease of reference. I don't think I will make this one the fastest. I will determine whether to make an even faster one after this test, or even one more test, since I think I've found several different ways that are kinds of micros but will influnce the macros heavily to improve the old runs but the final result of choosing one of them is so far to see that it will be hard for me to test them all by myself. Maybe Yrr and I can make two big tests then work together on the even fastser one. I'll consider that....;-) EDIT: There may be other ways to avoid confliction, e.g. I can make my run a glitch-warping one so it will try to beat pirate_sepheroth's glitch-warping run instead. :-P

<klmz> it reminds me of that people used to keep quoting adelikat's IRC statements in the old good days <adelikat> no doubt <adelikat> klmz, they still do

Posted: 6/26/2007 10:40 AM

Post subject: Re: so which is better, co-operation or competition?

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moozooh

Senior Moderator

Joined: 8/4/2005
Posts: 5777
Location: Away

Well your "test" is kicking the published runs' asses pretty thoroughly. And even those that are still in works/abandoned.

klmz wrote:

Maybe Yrr and I can make two big tests then work together on the even fastser one. I'll consider that....;-)

Judging by how other people work in pairs, I believe it's better to: 1) exchange small movie portions and see if other player can improve it, or 2) separate the duties (i.e., one does movement optimization, the other manipulates luck, or something to that extent). Making two test runs prior to doing an optimal one can easily result in a waste of time since both of you might overlook something in them.

klmz wrote:

There may be other ways to avoid confliction, e.g. I can make my run a glitch-warping one so it will try to beat pirate_sepheroth's glitch-warping run instead.

That is also a good idea. Zurreco was working on such a run and was desperately trying to make it perfect. Alas, he stopped at about the same spot as you in your WIP above, spending tens of thousands of rerecords to get that knife on an optimal frame. Maybe he can help you as well.

Warp wrote:

Edit: I think I understand now: It's my avatar, isn't it? It makes me look angry.

Posted: 6/26/2007 2:09 PM

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klmz

Editor, Emulator Coder, Expert player (2159)

Joined: 5/22/2007
Posts: 1134
Location: Glitchvania

moozooh wrote:

Well your "test" is kicking the published runs' asses pretty thoroughly. And even those that are still in works/abandoned. ... That is also a good idea.

So my "test" is to be a killer and I have to make it good and powerful enough.

moozooh wrote:

Zurreco was working on such a run and was desperately trying to make it perfect. Alas, he stopped at about the same spot as you in your WIP above, spending tens of thousands of rerecords to get that knife on an optimal frame. Maybe he can help you as well.

Now I see that I am not the only one who is sometimes unlucky. EDIT: Oh I said I would take a break now, but I got a new idea to improve the run just now and I would like to do a small test now....

<klmz> it reminds me of that people used to keep quoting adelikat's IRC statements in the old good days <adelikat> no doubt <adelikat> klmz, they still do

Posted: 6/26/2007 4:12 PM

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Yrr

Joined: 8/10/2006
Posts: 289
Location: Germany, Bayern

Wow, you just owned my movie saving a half of a second. Graz! But I have some criticm: -you're clmbing-up-stairs method is not optimal. Watch my movie to see how it is faster (in the grave keeper's room I myself didn't do it optimal, but see the room after the quezlcoatl) -I think creaking skull can be made faster and more entertaining -in the room with the baselard you can do more moves to make it more entertaining. In my movie I made maybe too many moves, but... Besides that, you did a very good job! I think doing this movie together is the best idea. Two seperated movies are stupid. I'd say that you're movie lacks a little bit of precision, but if we restart it, improve it and use all of our techniques then we could really produce a movie near to optimal.

Posted: 6/26/2007 6:51 PM

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moozooh

Senior Moderator

Joined: 8/4/2005
Posts: 5777
Location: Away

I've taken some time to research optimal backdashing method, and this is the result I got. The name explains the sequence:

frame   #1 - backdash (+ turn around if you're facing forward)
frame   #2 - jump
frame   #3 - attack
#4  to  #9 - [nothing]
frame  #10 - press the direction you're traveling in
#11 to #15 - hold that direction
------------------------------
frame  #16 - start again

Not that it's going to save a lot of time, but… who knows. Actually, I'm not too sure if it's the fastest possible sequence, but at least it's the fastest I've been able to get at the moment. The average speed achieved in the demo is 2.20833 pixels/frame.

Warp wrote:

Edit: I think I understand now: It's my avatar, isn't it? It makes me look angry.

Posted: 6/27/2007 6:41 AM
(Edited: 7/1/2007 3:21 PM)

Quote

klmz

Editor, Emulator Coder, Expert player (2159)

Joined: 5/22/2007
Posts: 1134
Location: Glitchvania

Yrr wrote:

-you're clmbing-up-stairs method is not optimal. Watch my movie to see how it is faster (in the grave keeper's room I myself didn't do it optimal, but see the room after the quezlcoatl) -I think creaking skull can be made faster and more entertaining -in the room with the baselard you can do more moves to make it more entertaining. In my movie I made maybe too many moves, but...

Oh I am afraid that I can't agree on every one of them. In my opinion: - for example, in the room after the White Dragon (perhaps the "quezlcoatl" you mean?) it took 64 frames for Soma to move from where he landed on the platform near the door to where he destroyed the Skeleton Knight in my run and the same thing happened in yours. - there is a topic: the interval between two damages dealt to enemy with a weapon. Since the mininum interval with Baselard is 16 frames, there is no way to beat Creaking Skull faster with Baselard, unless you exploit a glitch which I'll talk about below. - I think it's good to keep things not too complex while keeping the movie fast, and I think you made too many moves in your movie, too. Well I hate noises, but I have to keep back-dashing while making noises all the way.... Now I'll talk about a glitch: you know the damage interval with Baselard is 16 frames, but I once did shrink it to 8 frames while I was fighting Creaking Skull. Unfortunately I messed my savestates up later and now I can't repeat it. That's too bad. My thought is that this glitch can be caused by red souls. It may need time to research, though.

Yrr wrote:

I think doing this movie together is the best idea. Two seperated movies are stupid.

The problem is, I think, that I'll stick to a fast run no matter if any damages are taken to save time, while you want a fast and damageless one. If we could agree what we both aim for, then just let's start making it. I'll be busy in about two weeks. So we'd better decide what to do now quickly. moozooh: I've tested many ways to make back dash faster, and finally I choose this way: frame #1 - L frame #2 - nothing frame #3 - A one of frame from #4 to #9 - B all of frame from #11 to #16 - hold the moving direction ------------------------------------------------------------------ frame #17 - start the next cycle It's hard to tell which one of our "optimal methods" is better. EDIT: Well you win, moozooh. I think such a tiny difference can only be caused by the imprecise fractional algorithm in the game. EDIT2: Oh I wrote the wrong frame when I began to hold the direction that I was moving to rather than when I actually did! Now I have corrected it....

<klmz> it reminds me of that people used to keep quoting adelikat's IRC statements in the old good days <adelikat> no doubt <adelikat> klmz, they still do

Posted: 6/28/2007 1:24 PM

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Yrr

Joined: 8/10/2006
Posts: 289
Location: Germany, Bayern

klmz wrote:

The problem is, I think, that I'll stick to a fast run no matter if any damages are taken to save time, while you want a fast and damageless one. If we could agree what we both aim for, then just let's start making it. I'll be busy in about two weeks. So we'd better decide what to do now quickly.

Well, I'd have no problems in doing a damage run instead of a non-damage run since there is almost no difference in both.

Posted: 6/28/2007 1:51 PM

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moozooh

Senior Moderator

Joined: 8/4/2005
Posts: 5777
Location: Away

klmz wrote:

It's hard to tell which one of our "optimal methods" is better.

It isn't. Your backdash cycle is 16 frames, mine is 15. Highest common divisor in our demos is frame 480 (480/15=32 full dashes, 480/16=30 full dashes), so basically, what we need is to know what horizontal position Soma has on that frame on our demos. RAM address 03007CE4 tells me it's 1140 in my demo and 1139 in yours.

Warp wrote:

Edit: I think I understand now: It's my avatar, isn't it? It makes me look angry.

Posted: 6/28/2007 3:51 PM

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klmz

Editor, Emulator Coder, Expert player (2159)

Joined: 5/22/2007
Posts: 1134
Location: Glitchvania

Yrr wrote:

Well, I'd have no problems in doing a damage run instead of a non-damage run since there is almost no difference in both.

Taking damage in several places such as where four Bone Pillars are stacked, Needles floating and perhaps the first Manticore (Boss). Then we'll make one glitch-warpless movie that takes damage to save time, right? I think such a movie is what people want to watch and it will be accepted without trouble. You agree? Now what to do next?

<klmz> it reminds me of that people used to keep quoting adelikat's IRC statements in the old good days <adelikat> no doubt <adelikat> klmz, they still do

Posted: 6/28/2007 4:33 PM

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moozooh

Senior Moderator

Joined: 8/4/2005
Posts: 5777
Location: Away

klmz wrote:

I think such a tiny difference can only be caused by the imprecise fractional algorithm in the game.

Actually, quite the opposite: it's more precise. The game has a lot of subpixel motion in it (really apparent when backdashing), but I haven't succeeded in finding the addresses for subpixel positions yet.

Warp wrote:

Edit: I think I understand now: It's my avatar, isn't it? It makes me look angry.

Posted: 6/29/2007 2:00 AM

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pirate_sephiroth

Active player (315)

Joined: 2/28/2006
Posts: 2275
Location: Milky Way -> Earth -> Brazil

This backdash thing is pretty complicated... I didn't test in long rooms, but in short places, it's just the same. The difference is that short backdashes make your average speed higher. But the backdashing itself is always faster then jumping backwards using its momentum. EDIT: hmm, the speed is not HIGHER, I meant it's just MORE CONSTANT

"Genuine self-esteem, however, consists not of causeless feelings, but of certain knowledge about yourself. It rests on the conviction that you — by your choices, effort and actions — have made yourself into the kind of person able to deal with reality. It is the conviction — based on the evidence of your own volitional functioning — that you are fundamentally able to succeed in life and, therefore, are deserving of that success." - Onkar Ghate

Bisqwit wrote:

Drama, too long, didn't read, lol.

Posted: 10/3/2007 3:56 AM
(Edited: 10/3/2007 6:25 AM)

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arkiandruski

Reviewer, Active player (287)

Joined: 12/14/2006
Posts: 717

Hey, I'm not sure which thread to post this in. I don't know if pirate_sephiroth is still working or planning on working on this, but I decided to take on a(n) 100% souls run on normal difficulty as a long on-going side project. Here's what I got so far, using what I learned in the threads (all three of them) and some of the WIP's posted. http://dehacked.2y.net/microstorage.php/info/973412488/ariaofsorrowallsouls.vbm Let me know what you think. Again not trying to step in on anyone's territory. I mostly just like the idea (and want to practice luck manipulation). By the way, here's an outline of my planned route through the castle, since I'm all about sharing information, and the discussion would be fun. Let me know if I missed something. Aria of Sorrow planning: EDIT: Here's the short version if you don't want to read the long one: As normal through Great Armor, then Dance Hall, then Clock Tower, then through the Underground Reservoir to the Arena, fighting Legion on the way. After that, I fight Graham, then go to the Headhunter and pick up Chronomage, then to the Forbidden Area for one soul that isn't found anywhere else. Finally I go to Chaos. However, Dance Hall can be done at any time without affecting the route too much. I'd like to know whether you think I should do it sooner or later. Advantages of sooner: higher levels for every boss fight afterward (and a couple armors). Reasons to do it later: Tsuchinoko. /EDIT Question: Is there any way to glitch straight to the Forbidden Zone? Ways to manipulate RNG: 1.attack 2.cause damage 3.slide 4.scroll the screen (vertically at least) 5. make the enemies take action 6. partical effects (e.g. clouds of dust, souls flying through the air, fire effects) Enemies that call RNG on every frame and thus are my friends: 1. zombie 2. skeleton 3. merman 4. bat (apparently) 5. ghost 6. any of the large armors 7. golems? 8. medusa heads? Souls I need to get the first time I see the enemy (Either because I use them later or I only see them once): 1. Buer 2. Creaking Skull 3. Red Crow 4. Siren 5. Catoblepas 6. Waiter Skeleton 7. Tsuchinoko (boy is that one going to be annoying) 8. Kyoma Demon 9. Chronomage 10. Curly 11. Altair 12. Dead Warrior 13. Gorgon 14. Giant Worm 15. Man Eater 16. Triton 17. Poison Worm 18. Ripper 19. Alura Une 20. Biphron 21. Mandragora 22. Flesh Golem 23. Sky Fish (Can I kill it without chronomage?) 24. Kicker Skeleton 25. Killer Mantle 26. Giant Skeleton 27. Bael 28. Mimic 29. Lubicant 30. Basilisk 31. Iron Golem 32. Final Guard 33. Flame Demon (or on the way back) Souls that have very few opportunities for taking: 1. Manticore 2. Giant Golem 3. Skeleton Knight 4. Student Witch 5. Arachne 6. White Dragon 7. Durga 8. Giant Ghost 9. Quezlcoatl 10. Ghost Dancer 11. Wooden Golem 12. Lilith 13. Nemesis 14. Witch 15. Disc Armor 16. Gremlin 17. Lightning Doll 18. Une 19. Fish Head 20. Nightmare 21. Slime 22. Shadow Knight Possible Difficult Souls: 1. Peeping Eye 2. Tsuchinoko 3. Sky Fish 4. Medusa Head (there’s a lot of them, but they don’t seem to be very giving) 5. Any souls in Forbidden Area (do we really need Undine to get there? Apparently, you do) 6. Dead Crusader 7. Flesh Golem 8. Alura Une 9. Kyoma Demon 10. Golem Walkthrough Begin game: speed through opening scene. Souls I can have by this point: 1.Winged Skeleton (Can hit twice or three times if used right. No randomness beyond calling a value if used.) Soulds I need: 1. Winged Skeleton Souls Equipped: Red: Winged Skeleton Blue: none Yellow: none Pick up Grave Keeper Can now use back-dash. Souls I can have: 1. Zombie (Completely useless for my purposes) 2. Bat (Very Limited range. Practically useless.) 3. Merman (Slightly higher attack, but only hits once. Small particle effect, but goes away too quick to be useful) Souls I need: (none) Souls Equipped: Red: Winged Skeleton Blue: none Yellow: none Weapon: Baselard Defeat Creaking Skull Souls I can have: 1. Skeleton (throws bone. Upward arc might possibly be useful, but not worth equipping) 2. Axe Armor (limited range, will attack three times if you hover it in target) 3. Creaking Skull (nothing worth equipping) Souls I need: 1. Creaking Skull Souls Equipped Red: Winged Skeleton Blue: none Yellow: none Meet Graham Jones Souls I can have: 1. Skull Archer (decent damage, but takes too long to use) 2. Blue Crow (Bad range, no randomness) 3. Buer (Calls on RNG every four frames) 4. Skeleton Knight (strength boost) 5. Zombie Soldier (useless) 6. Ghost (Calls on RNG every frame, might be useful in a pinch) 7. White Dragon (Takes four hits to kill. Get it later) 8. Peeping Eye (useless) 9. Tiny Devil (less need to aim, but doesn’t call on RNG much) 10. Rock Armor (Useless) Souls I need: 1. Buer (for the RNG) 2. Skeleton Knight (for the strength boost) Souls Equiqqed: Red: Winged Skeleton Blue: Buer Yellow: Skeleton Knight Combat knife equipped? If I can get one. Defeat Manticore Souls I can have: 1. Giant Ghost (useless) 2. Une (get it later) 3. Manticore (possible speed boost? Calls on RNG every four frames) Souls I need: none Souls Equipped: Red: Winged Skeleton Blue: Buer Yellow: Skeleton Knight Meet Yoko Souls I can have: 1. Fleaman (useless novelty) 2. Arachne (useless) 3. Evil Butcher (no nonsense attack) 4. Ectoplasm (useless) 5. Cabletopas (useless) 6. Student Witch (funny, but useless) 7. Bone Pillar (Buer calls RNG more) 8. Zombie Soldier (get later) Souls I need: none Souls Equipped: Red: Winged Skeleton Blue: Buer Yellow: Skeleton Knight Defeat Great Armor/Get Malphas/Meet Hammer Souls I can have: 1. Minotaur (Strength boost) 2. Great Armor (calls RNG every eight frames can move while using) Souls I need: 1. Minotaur 2. Great Armor Souls Equipped: Red: Winged Skeleton Blue: Buer/Great Armor Yellow: Minotaur Return to Warp Point Souls I can have: 1. Quezlcotl (useless. Get later) 2. Ghost Dancer (luck boost? Might help.) Souls I need: 1. Cabletopas Souls Equipped: Red: Winged Skeleton Blue: Buer Yellow: Minotaur Travel to Dance Hall (may do this later) Souls I can have: 1. Siren (useless, but cute) Souls I need: 1. Siren Souls Equipped: Red: Winged Skeleton Blue: Buer Yellow: Minotaur Defeat Big Golem/Get Skeleton Blaze Souls I can have: 1. Waiter Skeleton (useless) 2. Killer Doll (useless) 3. Wooden Golem (could be helpful) 4. Big Golem (useless) 5. Tsuchinoko (pain in the ass and useless) Souls I need: 1. Waiter Skeleton 2. Tsuchinoko (WHYYYYYYY!!!) Return to Warp Point Souls I can have: 1. Durga (Not too useful) 2. Nemesis (very limited use) Souls I need: 1. Quezlcotl 2. Evil Butcher 3. Killer Doll 4. Zombie Officer 5. Nemesis 6. Ghost Dancer 7. Wooden Golem Souls Equipped: Red: Winged Skeleton Blue: Buer Yellow: Minotaur (Ghost Dancer?) Head to Floating Garden Souls I can have: 1. none Souls I need: 1. Peeping Eye 2. Flying Armor Souls Equipped: Red: Winged Skeleton Blue: Buer Yellow: Minotaur Head to Clock Tower Souls I can have: 1. Cockatrice (Bad range) 2. Dead Warrior (useless) 3. Red Crow (not what I need) 4. Imp (Calls RNG every frame, relatively cheap) 5. Golem (Takes a lot to kill, but gives strength boost) 6. Werewolf (Small range, can’t use in air, no randomness) 7. Disc Armor (short range, but good attack. Possible) 8. Devil (transformation. Possible speed boost) Souls I need: 1. Imp 2. Red Crow 3. Devil 4. Dead Warrior Souls Equipped: Red: Winged Skeleton (switch for Disc Armor?) Blue: Imp Yellow: Golem? Defeat Death Souls I can have: 1. Lightning Doll (Expensive, but strong) 2. Medusa Head (Might be useful in spots) 3. Bomber Armor (useless) 4. Harpy (no nonsense soul, but no) 5. Valkyrie (expensive) 6. Gremlin (same question as Ghost Dancer) 7. Death (Calls RNG every other frame, but good attack. Also more expensive) 8. Skula (well, you know) Souls I need: 1. Death 2. Skula 3. Golem Souls Equipped: Red: Lightning Doll? Blue: Imp (or Death) Yellow: Golem New weapon: Mystletain Return to Warp Point Souls I can have: 1. Needles (useless) Souls I need: 1. Lightning Doll 2. Medusa Head 3. Harpy 4. Gremlin 5. Disc Armor 6. Bomber Armor Souls Equipped: Red: Lightning Doll Blue: Imp Yellow: Skula (This might be a better time to go to Dance Hall) Head to Underground Reservoir Souls I can have: 1. Killer Fish (useless) 2. Man Eater (very strong with three targets. Maybe later) Souls I need: 1. Killer Fish 2. Needles Souls Equipped: Red: Lightning Doll Blue: Imp Yellow: Skula Equip Rahab’s Sword? (element ice, must get past Man Eater) (If possible, see if I can’t visit the Reservoir warp point while here) Head to Underground Cemetery Souls I can have: 1. Cagnazzo (useless) 2. Ukoback (useless) 3. Giant Worm (loved it when I was playing, but useless here) 4. Nightmare (might be fun to have) 5. Slime (useless) 6. Mandragora (Kind of cool, but expensive) 7. Arc Demon (eh) 8. Sky Fish (oh, if only) 9. Triton (strength boost) 10. Gorgon (useless) 11. Poison Worm (useless) 12. Gargoyle (useless) Souls I need: 1. Une 2. Giant Worm 3. Nightmare 4. Triton 5. Poison Worm Souls Equipped: Red: Lightning Doll Blue: Imp Yellow: Triton Defeat Legion/Get Galamoth Souls I can have: 1. Werejaguar (useless) 2. Biphron (kind of cool..) 3. Flame Demon (needed to finish, of course) 4. Legion (cool, but won’t use) 5. Ripper (useless) Souls I need: 1. Werejaguar 2. Biphron 3. Flame Demon (can get these three on the way back, but why not now?) 4. Legion (destroy the shell first) Souls Equipped: Red: Lightning Doll Blue: Imp Yellow: Triton Head Toward Arena Souls I can have: 1. Alura Une (For unassisted players more) 2. Fish Head (get later) Souls I need: 1. Ripper 2. Alura Une Souls Equipped: Red: Lightning Doll Blue: Imp Yellow: Triton Defeat Balore/Get Giant Bat Souls I can have: 1. Beam Skeleton (strong but slow) 2. Killer Mantle (Necessary for some enemies) 3. Dead Crusader (pain in the ass) 4. Skull Millione (useless) 5. Gladiator (useless) 6. Weretiger (useless) 7. Red Minotaur (hell yeah!) 8. Lubicant (Might want to use this) 9. Erinys (eh) Souls I need: 1. Beam Skeleton 2. Killer Mantle 3. Skull Millione 4. Weretiger 5. Lubicant Souls Equipped: Red: Blue: Yellow: New Weapon: Laevatain (possibly) Return to Warp Point All things the same as before. (This might be a better time to go to Dance Hall than when I have it) Visit Top Floor/Defeat Graham Souls I can have: 1. Succubus (needed to win) 2. Final Guard (might be fun) 3. Bael (useless) 4. Basilisk (useless) 5. Black Panther Souls I need: Souls Equipped: Red: Blue: Yellow: Get Hippogryph on way out Defeat Headhunter/Get Undine/Get Chronomage Visit Forbidden Area Small Detour to get Sky Fish Another Small detour for Flesh Golem Two souls: Mudman and Mimic (Mimic’s too far. I think go for Chaos Realm Get Claimh Solais? (If I don’t get the Mimic, this won’t happen.) Go to Chaos Get any souls from Floating Garden I missed (or skipped over) plus Kicker Skeleton, Altair, Alastor, Demon Lord, Stolas, Shadow Knight, Giant Skeleton (Chaos Ring?)

My favorite movies

Posted: 10/3/2007 4:09 AM

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Zurreco

Former player

Joined: 8/1/2004
Posts: 2687
Location: Seattle, WA

arkiandruski wrote:

Question: Is there any way to glitch straight to the Forbidden Zone?

Yes. You need a rush soul and Giant Bat, and you need to exit the top of the chapel at the correct pixel/morph at the correct instant to shoot straight to the room before Chaos. It helps skip Julius, but it also means that you have to backtrack a bit to get the last few souls on your quest. Didn't read the rest of your post because god damn son[/i].

hi nitrodon streamline: cyn-chine

Posted: 10/3/2007 4:36 AM

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TNSe

Emulator Coder

Joined: 10/9/2004
Posts: 453
Location: Norway

Oh man arkiandruski, your wall of text crit me for massive amounts of damage, but you go, you go collect them souls, and make it look good!

Posted: 10/3/2007 6:04 AM

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arkiandruski

Reviewer, Active player (287)

Joined: 12/14/2006
Posts: 717

Forbidden Zone is the place behind the waterfall in the Underground Reservoir. Normally, you'd need both Undine and a transformation soul to get through. I'm looking to skip that step.

My favorite movies

Posted: 10/3/2007 1:54 PM

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moozooh

Senior Moderator

Joined: 8/4/2005
Posts: 5777
Location: Away

What I did like: optimization and the fact that you're collecting more than one soul of any kind (it counts when calculating the stat bonus from Headhunter, although I'm not entirely sure it will help much since you're getting it too late in the game). What I didn't like: that you didn't use bullet souls for fun, killing enemies with them like pirate did. Medusa head must be gotten as early as possible in the game, because it both shuffles RNG like mad and provides a very substantial speed boost.

Warp wrote:

Edit: I think I understand now: It's my avatar, isn't it? It makes me look angry.

Posted: 10/3/2007 9:53 PM

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arkiandruski

Reviewer, Active player (287)

Joined: 12/14/2006
Posts: 717

I'm not sure what you mean by "use bullet souls for fun" I use that soul quite often, and the only enemy either pirate or I actually killed with a bullet soul, after the first few rooms at least, was Buer, and we both did that. If you mean that I don't switch out to other bullet souls often enough, I'm planning to do that. When I redo the last room (since I'm not satisfied with it), I'm going to equip the ghost soul, which I'll then trade for student witch when I get that. I know it doesn't say that on my outline, but I've been playing around a bit, and I think that's best. Are you sure you mean Medusa head? I can see how it might pull on RNG, but I don't see how hovering in midair is a speed boost. Is it possible you mean Manticore? That calls on RNG every four frames which would be tied for the best of the souls I have at the moment. Losing control of my character might be a problem though. In my opinion, the soul that does best at calling RNG at the least cost is Imp, and I'm pretty sure that will be one of my favorites throughout most of the run. The reason I'm collecting more than one soul of each kind is more for entertainment than for Headhunter. I don't think I can collect enough souls to make Headhunter better than Triton, or Lubicant. However, the idea of the run is making it look like you can just speed through the game and souls will just come to you, so I thought it only natural that I should collect as many souls as possible without showing any significant slowdown to make it look especially easy. (I would love to have at least one room where I just speed through and every enemy I kill releases a soul)

My favorite movies

Posted: 10/3/2007 10:06 PM

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moozooh

Senior Moderator

Joined: 8/4/2005
Posts: 5777
Location: Away

arkiandruski wrote:

If you mean that I don't switch out to other bullet souls often enough, I'm planning to do that. When I redo the last room (since I'm not satisfied with it), I'm going to equip the ghost soul, which I'll then trade for student witch when I get that. I know it doesn't say that on my outline, but I've been playing around a bit, and I think that's best.

That's good; for example, I liked it very much that pirate switched souls often and used things like Creaking Skull — they add variety to the run.

arkiandruski wrote:

Are you sure you mean Medusa head? I can see how it might pull on RNG, but I don't see how hovering in midair is a speed boost.

Instant backdash cancelling, instant attack cancelling.

Warp wrote:

Edit: I think I understand now: It's my avatar, isn't it? It makes me look angry.

Posted: 10/3/2007 10:23 PM

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pirate_sephiroth

Active player (315)

Joined: 2/28/2006
Posts: 2275
Location: Milky Way -> Earth -> Brazil

Hey... I will watch it now. I'll need some time until I resume my run. But... I warn you: planning is pretty easy compared to actually DOING it. I won't make any plans until I reach Great Armor... You're not stepping on anyone's territory. Feel free to criticize... the more people working on this game, the better. Good luck! EDIT: Hmm... looks good, but... Like Atma once told me, "You can get the backdash earlier" (you should backdash as soon as posible). Also, your backdash+jumps on slopes aren't optimal... you just move like you're crazy...

"Genuine self-esteem, however, consists not of causeless feelings, but of certain knowledge about yourself. It rests on the conviction that you — by your choices, effort and actions — have made yourself into the kind of person able to deal with reality. It is the conviction — based on the evidence of your own volitional functioning — that you are fundamentally able to succeed in life and, therefore, are deserving of that success." - Onkar Ghate

Bisqwit wrote:

Drama, too long, didn't read, lol.

Posted: 10/4/2007 12:08 PM

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Comicalflop

Editor, Experienced player (735)

Joined: 6/13/2006
Posts: 3300
Location: Massachussetts, USA

hey, I like that you're working on this druski. I noticed a few improvements you made, but as pirate and moozooh mentioned, there's a few things to be noted: -getting the gravekeeper earlier: throw a spear at the top of one of the down hill slopes like pirate does, you'll get backdash as soon as you get out of the water. -backdashing up slopes: pirate (and yrr and klmz) do this: AL A A A (3 frame wait) repeat it seems more smooth and slightly faster -switching souls often is really good, it adds a lot of variety. The skeleton soul is helpful in that it can speed up the creaking skeleton fight, and also you can attack enemies above you. the creaking soul is really nice in that it deals a lot of damage, and has an incredible reach, both above you and to the right of you, and plus it has that tasty glitch that pirate found. Pirate's first WIP, although obsolete, was in my mind the most exciting because it used a huge variety of the souls he had gathered (enchanted arrow, muer, etc.) and he'd constantly do two things: activate some attack that would grab a soul of even a monster that fell behind him, or set up multiple attacks that would kill a big monster in his way without slowing down at all (enchanted arrow from one screen back, muer, a spear, and a dagger attack.) This multitude of soul using (in my mind, the "all souls run" should use the souls in various and numerous ways) and attacking was very entertaining, it was a flurry of movement and attacks that I could barely follow that all were carefully set up to kill enemies in specific ways. -does jumping up before you reach uphill slopes and jumping down slopes make you go faster? yesterday I lost internet before I could post, so this is what I remembered of what I had tried to write. The all soul is a run I look forward to, so best of luck!

☣ Homepage ☣ Retired

Posted: 10/4/2007 4:32 PM

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pirate_sephiroth

Active player (315)

Joined: 2/28/2006
Posts: 2275
Location: Milky Way -> Earth -> Brazil

It's been some time since I last played it, but backdashing through downhill slopes is sometimes faster than jumping down (I think jumping is better with long slopes).

"Genuine self-esteem, however, consists not of causeless feelings, but of certain knowledge about yourself. It rests on the conviction that you — by your choices, effort and actions — have made yourself into the kind of person able to deal with reality. It is the conviction — based on the evidence of your own volitional functioning — that you are fundamentally able to succeed in life and, therefore, are deserving of that success." - Onkar Ghate

Bisqwit wrote:

Drama, too long, didn't read, lol.

Posted: 10/5/2007 1:22 PM

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JXQ

Experienced player (761)

Joined: 5/6/2005
Posts: 3132

I just wanted to express support for this all-souls run. It's very fun to watch souls topple effortlessly out of enemies in mid-stride. It's like a free shopping spree. "I'll take.. you, and you.. and one of those.. oh that one looks nice.."

<Swordless> Go hug a tree, you vegetarian (I bet you really are one)

Posted: 10/6/2007 2:48 PM

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Yrr

Joined: 8/10/2006
Posts: 289
Location: Germany, Bayern

Cool, news in this topic :D I've made a table of different variations of the backdash-run thing: Speed comparison =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- +=====================+ |ppf = pixel per frame| |ppc = pixel per cycle| *=====================* ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Frame | Button -------+------------- 1 | A, L 2 | B 3-9 | 10-14 | > -------+------------- Average| 2.16583 ppf | 30.3216 ppc ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Frame | Button -------+------------- 1 | L 2 | A 3 | B 4-9 | 10-15 | > -------+------------- Average| 2.17677 ppf | 32.6515 ppc ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Frame | Button -------+------------- 1-2 | L 3 | A 4 | B 5-10 | 11-16 | > -------+------------- Average| 2.18782 ppf | 35.0051 ppc ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Frame | Button -------+------------- 1-3 | L 4 | A 5 | B 6-10 | 11-17 | > -------+------------- Average| 2.21283 ppf | 37.6182 ppc ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Frame | Button -------+------------- 1-4 | L 5 | A 6 | B 7-11 | 12-18 | > -------+------------- Average| 2.23549 ppf | 40.2389 ppc ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ NOTE: This one is probably wrong, but I think I'm going to test this out. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Frame | Button -------+------------- 1-5 | L 6 | A 7 | B 8-11 | 12-19 | > -------+------------- Average| 2.197 ppf | 41.743 ppc ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ As you might have noticed, this table is written in a simple text editor and looks horrible but I am too lazy to change the format >.< Ah and btw, I can't download the WIP o.0

Posted: 10/6/2007 2:57 PM

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moozooh

Senior Moderator

Joined: 8/4/2005
Posts: 5777
Location: Away

Yrr wrote:

-------+------------- 1 | L 2 | A 3 | B 4-9 | 10-15 | > -------+------------- Average| 2.17677 ppf

Looks like the method I posted above, but by my calculations it's 2.20833 px/f, not 2.17677. Are you taking into account the one frame stop after a cycle? IIRC, I used 30 or so cycles to average out the stops.

Warp wrote:

Edit: I think I understand now: It's my avatar, isn't it? It makes me look angry.

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