For my first TAS, I want to create a demo I wanted to do for a long time...
I just made a draft of this demo. The goal is to show how to complete A Link to the Past on actual hardware really fast with bug abuse.
Of course, up+down and left+right is disabled because ordinary SNES controller couldn't do this. Also, it means too that you can't press any button at a fixed pace of 30 Hz, which is inhuman without a turbo controller... and turbo controller isn't actual hardware.
The result shows glitch over glitch over glitch, which makes a very interesting movie to watch. My current WIP achieve this in 25 minutes, and beats only the first boss.
Here is my WIP, made with the US version of ALttP. You may skip up to frame 70000 if you want to see the interesting stuff, the only thing before that point is to get to the Dark World ASAP by normal means:
http://www-etud.iro.umontreal.ca/~fortindg/zelda/smashmaniac_zelda3demo_draft.zip
I used Snes9X v1.43+ v9. If you have playback trouble, use the FMOD DirectSound driver (the default driver crashes my PC). Use WIP1 timing. Don't allow left+right and up+down. No volume envelope height reading. No fake mute. As for sync with sound CPU, the option is disabled with the FMOD DirectSound driver, so I don't know if it's supposed to be on or off with the default driver.
I know it's far than ready for publishing, but since it's my first TAS I just wanted some feedback about my WIP.
Like this idea as a TAS demo? Noticed a big time-sucker?
Of course, up+down and left+right is disabled because ordinary SNES controller couldn't do this. Also, it means too that you can't press any button at a fixed pace of 30 Hz, which is inhuman without a turbo controller... and turbo controller isn't actual hardware.
It is inhuman to do almost everything on this site, so you can use turbo and up+down/left+right.
Joined: 3/17/2006
Posts: 243
Location: Back to good old Germany
What the hell is going on? Can you explain that glitch?
You "warped" from Dungeon 3 to 2, back to the castle, to DeathMountainTower in the LightWorld, to Aghanihm, to Ganon and finally to the TriForce...
Your movie won't get published if you do not use all emulator features to your advantage. The whole point of the movies on this site is that they show what could be done with the game if human limitations were not considered. If you do not use left+right or frame advance and because of that your movie is imprecise or or somehow imperfect, the movie will not get accepted. I'm just letting you know, because you talk about submitting the movie in your post.
Your movie won't get published if you do not use all emulator features to your advantage. The whole point of the movies on this site is that they show what could be done with the game if human limitations were not considered. If you do not use left+right or frame advance and because of that your movie is imprecise or or somehow imperfect, the movie will not get accepted. I'm just letting you know, because you talk about submitting the movie in your post.
Seems like I was not clear: I wanted to post this video as a CONCEPT DEMO that shows how, with human limitations, somebody can finish A Link to the Past very fast. Of course, the result will be "impure", but since this way of completing the game is very entertaining because many gliches are triggered AND the fact that you can do it on an actual SNES (and maybe too on a GBA I'm not sure yet), I think it deserves to be at least a concept demo.
spockybiemmichab wrote:
What the hell is going on? Can you explain that glitch?
You "warped" from Dungeon 3 to 2, back to the castle, to DeathMountainTower in the LightWorld, to Aghanihm, to Ganon and finally to the TriForce...
:D Alright:
1. Go into the Dark World ASAP. (I won't take the Lantern in my final video. I know, the boss needs to be greatly improved. And also I think I can skip a bit of time in the 2nd pendant dungeon by savequitting back at the beginning of the dungeon.)
2. Death Mountain Descent glitch: this causes a sprite glitch, but gameplay is identical.
3. Go straight into the 3rd crystal dungeon.
4. Get picked up by a Master Hand: another glitch - you transform back into ordinary Link!
5. Bumpers time! If you get bumpin' for the just right amount of time, the camera will no longer be correctly centered, which glitches the whole game and causes as a result in the next screen that the camera go outside normal boundaries and shows rooms that are not supposed to be shown horizontally. This will also create glitchy east/west doors that may show wrong rooms and teleport you from two screens at a time.
6. So when I go one screen west (normal door) and just right after go back one screen east, the glitchy door shows back the same room I just went, but with a Link without any items on him that can walk on holes and through enemies... but actually that's because the game thinks I'm still in the room with the Fire Rod! On top of that if you started wiggling left/right the camera would recenter on the real Link!
7. So I just take again the same door in the same direction as the last one, but this time I get teleported at a totally different place in the dungeon - the shows me as if I was in the entrance blocked outside by the giant skull thing you need to destroy with the Fire Rod to get to the boss, but again thinks I'm one room right of it! And the game thinks I'm between the lower layer and the upper layer: even in the correct room enemies don't hurt me! So I take the stairs up and down to reset correctly on which layer I am, and go back one screen west.
8. I'm back... but since I'm still in the bottom layer, nothing blocks me as long as I don't touch game tiles located in the bottom layer. Now i'm finally in the same alternate dimension as the 03:48 run so I just take a path with no bottom layer through the set of dungeon rooms up to Ganon's room (I think I can skip Aganhim's dialogue here if the camera doesn't show his room, this will need to be checked), and then one last screen north to see the Triforce as if I beated Ganon!
The tricky part is the bumping part: If you don't do it almost frame-perfectly, either nothing happens (camera still centered), either going one screen left teleports you stuck in the middle of a wall and you're doomed to use the Magic Mirror to try again. Well that or you just add one to your rerecord counter. ;)
So basically this would be a fastest completion without using right+left feature but with exploration zone glitch if you do it properly? Hmm... someone did the converse a while ago, beating it with left+right but fighting Ganon in the end, forcing him to collect the necessary stuff for it. I think I liked that better.
Some people object to left+right because it's not possible without damaging the controller IRL while the rest could be done if you had godlike reflexes. I think not using left+right shouldn't be a reason for rejection (could also be considered not using a specific glitch) but refusing to use frame precision (even for pushing buttons) or other beneficial glitches should be.
Some people object to left+right because it's not possible without damaging the controller IRL while the rest could be done if you had godlike reflexes. I think not using left+right shouldn't be a reason for rejection (could also be considered not using a specific glitch) but refusing to use frame precision (even for pushing buttons) or other beneficial glitches should be.
Well I have nothing against frame precision. The problem I have is with turbo: in this special case here is what would happen:
- Get the Pegasus Boots
- Go back into the Hyrule Castle's basement
- Float ('A' button at 30 Hz) above the first hole until you're on the next screen
- Exploration glitch triggered, get to the end of the game
^ BORING! I think my solution is much more entertaining. And besides, you'd still need a turbo controller to finish the game like that, which is not actual hardware.
There's already a Super Mario Bros speedwalk released in the concept demos which artifially don't use the 'B' button, so why this one would be rejected if it's entertaining enough.
And besides, you'd still need a turbo controller to finish the game like that, which is not actual hardware.
There's already a Super Mario Bros speedwalk released in the concept demos which artifially don't use the 'B' button, so why this one would be rejected if it's entertaining enough.
Well, Bisqwit made it, Bisqwit encoded it, Bisqwit published it and this is his site.
Frame advance isn't actual hardware, save states aren't actual hardware. Why should you use those then?
Some people object to left+right because it's not possible without damaging the controller IRL while the rest could be done if you had godlike reflexes.
What if you alternate left and right all in ONE frame? Would that still count as left+right? If so, then someone w/godlike reflexes should be able to do it.
Somebody told me pnce that we was able to press left and right in one frame and that it does do a left+right. But I've never been able to do that.
Guybrush wrote:
SmashManiac wrote:
And besides, you'd still need a turbo controller to finish the game like that, which is not actual hardware.
There's already a Super Mario Bros speedwalk released in the concept demos which artifially don't use the 'B' button, so why this one would be rejected if it's entertaining enough.
Well, Bisqwit made it, Bisqwit encoded it, Bisqwit published it and this is his site.
Frame advance isn't actual hardware, save states aren't actual hardware. Why should you use those then?
*sigh* Because then it would be an ordinary speedrun, which I find less entertaining. But at first, I actually tried to do a normal speedrun, but you have to play like a boring 30 minutes clearing about 3 levels of the game, and if you fail the bumping part (about 99.9% of the time), you have to start over. Besides, sites like http://speeddemosarchive.com/ don't accept movies using exploration glitches.
And if you remember, Bisqwit didn't even wanted to publish his speedwalk in the first place, but did so when he realized that, whatever the reason, many people liked it and have voted YES for publishing.
If you think that my current project is dumb, well I understand. But that's not what I want to know: I want to know if a polished version of my WIP would be interesting enough to be published. Isn't it the whole point of TASvideos?
Joined: 3/17/2006
Posts: 243
Location: Back to good old Germany
I think I would like an optimized run of this because I had the 'WTF?'-moments. But I don't know, if it would fit in the usual SNES section. Maybe Concept Demo section?
Of course, your first two levels must have at least the quality of the published, star-rated movie.
And one question:
Is it possible to reduce the bumping-time? My eyes went crazy while watching it for a while...
Okay, after reading through a few times I think I finally understand all the issues here, and I can see why much confusion arose. There are just so many intricate issues when making a run for such a complex glitchy game.
SmashManiac, I think you would have gotten a much better response had you stated your restrictions like so: Instead of saying no use of turbo, you should have said no use of the floating glitch. I think that's the real issue, because using that shortcut obviates many other entertaining glitches like the bouncing part.
Restricting to no left+right is fine, and is even a bonus for the reasons KDR_11k stated. In addition, I think the wobbling trick requires left+right, so such a run would please viewers who find the wobble-walk annoying.
There are specific guidelines for runs on this site, and even Bisqwit's walking run follows these for the most part. An important one is to stay within well-defined goals. Forbidding 30 Hz button presses is not a well-defined goal because it is an arbitrary restriction on player reflexes. However, the goal of finishing the game as fast as possible without left+right and without the floating glitch is clearly defined. We already have several runs on the site that are done with restrictions of not abusing specific bugs if those particular glitches subtract entertainment value. Even flagitious' movie is an example of such. In this sense, a frame-perfected version of your movie could even fit as a regular run rather than a concept demo.
That said, as to whether such a movie would be accepted I am uncertain. There is a conscious effort to avoid having too many runs of the same game, and that might make it difficult to accept a third movie. From the looks of it though, I think I would vote yes if you made a frame-perfect run using this glitchy route.
Ok I just whatched your demo run. And here's my take.
The business with disallowing pressing A 30 times a second is not arbitrary. Your goals are clearly defined. Beat the game as fast as humanly possible on original hardware. This is a fine goal, but this site is just not about what is humanly possible, so I don't think it could ever be published as a normal run, but as a concept video or something, sure.
Since your goal is to do it as fast as humanly possible, maybe once you master and understand all the techniques you could actually do it on console and record it and send it in to SDA or something, that seems more fitting. Several years ago I have beaten the game in pretty much this same way on console, it took me more like 40 minutes though.
Opinion stuff aside here are some game play related things:
You mentioned skipping the lantern, but I don't think this can be done without UP+DOWN, it won't let you push that thing with zelda if you skip it.
When you get in the 3rd crystal dungeon, it is possible to pull the glitch off much faster. I think you have read some faulty information on how it works (I remember reading something like you have to bounce until the hand comes 7 times or something). But it is really only nessecary to bounce back and forth once. I can't find a link to how it really works, but here is the jist:
If at a certain point in your sword spin you hit the left bumper it caues an offset of 1. If at that point in your sword spin you hit the right bumper it causes an offset of -1. If neither of those happens the offset remains unchanged. If you get 1 then -1 or -1 then 1 it goes back to 0. The glitch works when you leave the room with of an offset of -1 or 1 (can't remember which). If you bump a wall before exiting the room the offset goes back to 0.
Since the glitch can be done faster you won't have to kill any of the mummies.
Anyways best of luck with your run.
Somebody told me pnce that we was able to press left and right in one frame and that it does do a left+right. But I've never been able to do that.
If that could be verified, it would quiet a lot of arguments around here. It sounds logical to me, but I don't know how electronic circuits inside controllers work. Do they only check for presses once every 1/60th of a second, or do they collect information constantly, turning on flags of any button pressed during that time?
SmashManiac wrote:
And if you remember, Bisqwit didn't even wanted to publish his speedwalk in the first place, but did so when he realized that, whatever the reason, many people liked it and have voted YES for publishing.
I remember it was never submitted, just published, because it was an April Fools joke.
To answer your question about the chances of this run being published...I would ask how many versions of Zelda does the audience demand? I think the two we have are plenty, and some argue that a 100% run would also be a nice addition. So I think the chances are slim.
<Swordless> Go hug a tree, you vegetarian (I bet you really are one)
If that could be verified, it would quiet a lot of arguments around here. It sounds logical to me, but I don't know how electronic circuits inside controllers work. Do they only check for presses once every 1/60th of a second, or do they collect information constantly, turning on flags of any button pressed during that time?
Well, everything has to be quantized, so even if the sampling rate isn't 60hz, my argument still stands. Someone w/godlike reflexes should be able to press a sequence of buttons at more than twice the sampling rate.
The only thing of concern is if there's a fail safe: I.E, the button interpreter in the SNES ignores all presses of right if left is pressed, and vice versa. But that would require extra hardware (an extra comparator at least), and doesn't seem logical to implement? Or am I talking out of my ass?
FYI, even if there was a fail safe, exceeding the sampling rate would put the fail safe in an unknown state, either left or right. In general, there has to be some setup and hold time to lock a state, through a register/FF, right? Otherwise you have an oscillator! :)
I agree that doing a no floating glitch, no left+right would be interesting, but if you don't use frame advance or at least slowdown, the run more properly belongs on SDA. Without those tools, you cannot show off superhuman skills, which is what this site is about.
I agree that doing a no floating glitch, no left+right would be interesting, but if you don't use frame advance or at least slowdown, the run more properly belongs on SDA. Without those tools, you cannot show off superhuman skills, which is what this site is about.
The fact that left+right is double secret Gannon banned at SDA means that the run "more-properly" belongs here.
Okay, after reading through a few times I think I finally understand all the issues here, and I can see why much confusion arose. There are just so many intricate issues when making a run for such a complex glitchy game.
SmashManiac, I think you would have gotten a much better response had you stated your restrictions like so: Instead of saying no use of turbo, you should have said no use of the floating glitch. I think that's the real issue, because using that shortcut obviates many other entertaining glitches like the bouncing part.
Restricting to no left+right is fine, and is even a bonus for the reasons KDR_11k stated. In addition, I think the wobbling trick requires left+right, so such a run would please viewers who find the wobble-walk annoying.
There are specific guidelines for runs on this site, and even Bisqwit's walking run follows these for the most part. An important one is to stay within well-defined goals. Forbidding 30 Hz button presses is not a well-defined goal because it is an arbitrary restriction on player reflexes. However, the goal of finishing the game as fast as possible without left+right and without the floating glitch is clearly defined. We already have several runs on the site that are done with restrictions of not abusing specific bugs if those particular glitches subtract entertainment value. Even flagitious' movie is an example of such. In this sense, a frame-perfected version of your movie could even fit as a regular run rather than a concept demo.
That said, as to whether such a movie would be accepted I am uncertain. There is a conscious effort to avoid having too many runs of the same game, and that might make it difficult to accept a third movie. From the looks of it though, I think I would vote yes if you made a frame-perfect run using this glitchy route.
I couldn't have said it better: you are 100% correct, and I agree totally with you! Wow, are you a diplomat or something? :P
But I guess now that the only way to know if it's worth publishing or not is to submit it...
