Thanks a lot, Moozooh, Kyrsimys and Hero! You really made me free from my worries. Now I feel I can work on the run on a new note.
moozooh wrote:
Hmm, what if you make a submittable run using the skip and include the demos of everything you have skipped with it in the submission message? It seems that way you'll kill both birds with one stone: the run will be as fast as possible and all the new battle strategies will be easily accessible to everyone willing to watch them.
I find the idea interesting, and I like the concept of killing both birds with one stone. Even though I'm afraid I can't realize it this time because of my decision about the attribute of the run, I'll keep that in mind for the future. Thanks.
Also, speaking of Yakura, I remember I found a way to get inside the walls of Cathedral and run around in it a while ago. Although I wasn't able to find any use on it, it's still really interesting. So I'll post it for the record.
Here
As you can see, Swallow is an extremely useful weapon for any CT speed run because it [...] also increases his critical hit rate by 10-15%.
Where is this master document where every game mechanic is listed? I'd love to read it (English only, please)! If one doesn't yet exist, then you should really make one. I'd be happy to clean up the english for you.
I would like to know how much Twin Charm boosts natural Charm. Also, some people at gamefaqs are confused over how much Drill Kick boosts Ayla's Rollo Kick tech.
Anyways, back on topic, I'm happy with whatever run you decide to do. Although... A 100% run would be awesome.... If we can decide what 100% exactly means...
Any decision is precious and should be accepted.
The individual's choice is a good thing.
Do what you think is right, and you will be happy.
Looking forward to your run inichi.
Thinking a bit more about it, this is not a bad decision after all. Not using the skip trick makes the run not only much more entertaining, but also more "legit" and comparable to previous TASes or speedruns, on cost of only a slightly higher completion time. If I would do this TAS, I would probably decide the same way, since too many glitches in a run often destroy it. Thats probably the same case here, since bosses are one of the highlights in this game.
Looking forward for this run. Good luck.
Joined: 2/28/2006
Posts: 2275
Location: Milky Way -> Earth -> Brazil
Bah... I'll wait for the skippy one
"Genuine self-esteem, however, consists not of causeless feelings, but of certain knowledge about yourself.
It rests on the conviction that you — by your choices, effort and actions — have made yourself into the
kind of person able to deal with reality. It is the conviction — based on the evidence of your own volitional
functioning — that you are fundamentally able to succeed in life and, therefore, are deserving of that success."
- Onkar Ghate
Bisqwit wrote:
Where is this master document where every game mechanic is listed? I'd love to read it (English only, please)!
Ah, those values are just my assumption, and I have never heard any such document exists. Sorry for the misunderstanding. I'll try to fix it:
> Swallow is an extremely useful weapon for any CT speed run because it increases Crono's Attack power 1.5 times as large as Slasher and boosts his speed +3. In addition, Swallow somewhat increases the rate of Crono's critical hits, and I guess it will be around 15%.
If one doesn't yet exist, then you should really make one. I'd be happy to clean up the english for you.
Well, my knoledge about Chrono Trigger is only confined to an area where is related to any% run, so I'm not sure I can write a comprehensive document which would meet your hope.
Shadow Byrn wrote:
Perhpas he could use this "skip" glitch to gain quick access to items and stuff but not use it to skip the boss? Or is using it at all totally out?
Sorry for the confusion. What I meant was that I'd never once use the skip-trick in my run. Hope this answers your question.
No, no need to apologize. I was just kinda curious if the point was to do the game totaly non-gliched or just to beat all the revelant bosses using any means possible.
I suppose this opens up a 3rd category here: all bosses.
The 1st would be normal, the 2nd would be glitched, and the 3rd would be halfway inbetween? Nah, bad idea, just go for either extreme!
I am just a silhouette, a silhouette of a memory of a solitary night .. nothing more.
I'm still very excited for this run, but I'd really like to see both one day. Those boss skips would make me burst out laughing if I wasn't expecting them.
Too bad, I was really looking forward to a skip-glitch run, just to snub those speedattack people who use the (J) version to be faster and claim to be superior. Even with the additional battles you need to level up (with far less boss exp), it should be amazingly fast. Also, when watching, I don't really see the difference between a 720-frame boss fight and a 700-frame one. Sure, it's cool to see the spreadsheet and go "WOW", but still.
Will we be seeing a skip-glitch run someday?
I've discovered a way to skip a conversation with Doan at Arris Dome, which occurs when you try to go down the ladder.
http://dehacked.2y.net/microstorage.php/info/1263343824/Doan%20skip.smv
I'd say this trick will save at least 500 frames. Also, I've found the other cutscene at the same spot is skippable in a similar way, but, very unfortunately, it's impossible to go beyond Lab 32 unless you get the Bike Key from Doan. That means you have to make that cutscene happen to push forward the game, anyway.
As for the progress of my test run, sorry, the progress is very slow due to my laziness. In addition, I have invloved in doing the minor optimization of here and there. Here is one example of those minor optimizations, and it has a noticeable difference from the usual way.
http://dehacked.2y.net/microstorage.php/info/125747318/Optimized%20avoidance%20of%20the%20Proto%20enemies.smv
If I may add a little explanation, you don't have to thoroughly walk to avoid the enemies at Proto Dome, which would save about 90 frames in total, since I'm going to get past those enemies three times in my TAS.
I hope to post a WIP of my test run containing the Nisbel battle, possibly more boss battles within a week or two. For that purpose, I'll do my best.
Hi, Bisqwit, sorry for the late reply, and 明けましておめでとう though it's too late to say it. :)
As for my testrun, sorry it has made little progress. The reason is mostly my laziness as you probably imagined, but other than that, there are.
Yes, I revealed critical hit tables of all characters, and found another three avoidable fights that you normally can't run away, which forced me to reconsider all boss strategies from the scratch.
First, here are the critical tables of characters who are directly related to any % run.
Crono and Robo:1 3 9 10 13 18 37 46 48 54 57 59 69 74 76 96 110 122 123 129 142 152 154 156 168 176 181 183 184 212 215 218 235
Marle, Lucca and Ayla (Level19-23): 1 3 5 8 9 10 13 18 27 28 33 36 37 38 46 48 52 53 54 57 59 68 69 74 76 77 81 88 96 105 106 110 113 116 119 120 121 122 123 129 139 142 152 154 156 164 168 176 181 183 184 190 197 212 215 217 218 224 226 235 239 241 255
Frog: 1 3 5 8 9 10 13 18 20 27 28 33 36 37 38 42 46 48 52 53 54 57 59 68 69 74 76 77 80 81 85 88 96 100 105 106 110 113 116 119 120 121 122 123 129 139 142 152 154 156 163 164 166 168 173 176 181 183 184 190 196 197 212 215 217 218 224 226 235 239 241 255
I'm not sure this is the right explanaion in technical terms because I'm newbie about those things , but here I try.
When a fight starts, 7EB3E6 takes the same value with the one stored in 7E29AD. That's a starting value of the battle and correspond the above chart. Also it increases one by one everytime your character attacks. For exapmle, When the value is 8 at the beginning of a battle and you use the 1st attack for the battle, Frog and Lucca's attack will always be a critical hit, while Crono's attack will never be a critial hit. On the other hand, you will always pull off a critical hit from all three characters for the 2nd attack because the value 9 guarantees all characters a critical hit.
A value stored in 7E29AD is the same with the one that 7E0026 took when the last battle finished. And, when a fight starts, 7E0026 also takes the same value with the one stored in 7E29AD and it'll add some numbers in itself every time your character and enemies attack. So, it will be necessary to be careful of what value 7E0026 takes in a battle in order to pull off critical hits as much as possible on the next battle.
It is also important to note that a value 7E29AD corresponds one-to-one with a timing that you select a save data. For example, if you save the data, reset and select it on the fastest timing it'll take 5, on the next frame, it'll take 6 and so on. That is, you can raise the proportion of critical hits in a battle, using the save, reset and load method in advance, that won't save a great amount of time though because it takes 400 frames at least to do a series of actions. In addition to, it is impossible to turn all attacks to be critical hits as you can see the above chart.
Second, about another three avoidable battles. One is in Cathedral and two are in Reptite Lair.
CathedralReptite Lair
Unlike other avoidable battle I found, you can't normally run away from those battles, so you'll lose some exp by avoiding those battles, which makes a party's level on some boss battles lower than usual. This is the reason I had no choice but to reconsider and develop somewhat new strategy for all boss battles.
Finally, about the current situtaion of the run. It was not much problem to develop new strateges for up to Masamune with lower level, using save/reset method (Feel free to tell me if you'd like to see them.)
So, the current problem is to get good RNG for Nizbel,Flea and Slash battle. For now, here is the fastest strategy for Nizbel battle I could get, but unfortunately, which makes the RNG you'll get for Flea and Slash battle VERY bad. So I'm considering these two plans: Save the data before Magus's castle to manipulate the RNG or use a somewhat slow strategy for Nizvel and get a better RNG for Flea and Slash battle instead. some test will be needed, anyway.
If I reach to the final conclusion, I'll post a WIP which contains those boss battles.
You have another fan :)
I've viewed pretty much all of the testing so far, and I'm impressed to say the least. Anyone who puts in this much effort into a lengthy game like this deserves a bit of support, so here's mine.
Wait, if I'm counting right, does that mean Crono and Robo have an almost 13% critical hit rate? 33 numbers divided by 255....
I'm assuming that those listed crit-tables change if, say, Masamune-Frog equips the Hero Medal, or Crono equips the Rainbow?
You have another fan :)
I've viewed pretty much all of the testing so far, and I'm impressed to say the least. Anyone who puts in this much effort into a lengthy game like this deserves a bit of support, so here's mine.
Thank you Jamma！ your support is really helpful.
Floogal wrote:
Wait, if I'm counting right, does that mean Crono and Robo have an almost 13% critical hit rate?
Yes. More precisely, it is about 12.89%, and that table is also shared with Magus and Ayla with the Bronze Fist.
I'm assuming that those listed crit-tables change if, say, Masamune-Frog equips the Hero Medal, or Crono equips the Rainbow?
Yeah, if you equip Crono with the Rainbow, his critcal hit rate vaults from about 12.89 to 197/256 or about 76.95 %. Masamune-Frog with the Hero Medal also gets a higher critical hit rate than usual, which is 153/256 or about 59.76%.
Can this data be used to improve the newgame+ run?
Well, it may be difficult because of Shiva Edge's poor critical hit rate, though I don't think it is impossible.
For now, here is a critical hit table of Crono with the Shiva Edge:
1 9 10 13 18 46 54 57 69 74 76 110 122 123 142 152 154 168 176 183 184 212 215 218 24/256 or about 9.37%
In order to improve my new game + run, it is necessary to get one more ciritical hit somewhere in a timely manner.
Just a thought, select the savedata on the timing that 7E29AD takes 121 (For your reference, in using new game + mode, the value you can take on the fastest timing is 13 instead of 5.)
And then use Marle's one critical hit, Crono's two critical hits and Ice Sword 2 on the Shell Lavos battle. It would be probably faster than my run until that battle, though I have no idea if you are able to get critical hits on the preferable timing on the other two battles.
Perhaps, I may try to improve it after I finish making an any % run or if someone is interested in it, I'm willing to support him/her.
Sorry to be treating you as an encyclopedia, but I have a few more critical-hit questions
- Wondershot, Valkerye, Siren are diff. from Marle/lucca's normal weapons?
- Robo's Crisis Arm has a low crit rate?
- Crono's Kali Blade have higher rate?
- Apparently, Ayla gets fist upgrades (with higher crits) at levels 24, 48, 72, and 96...?
- Does the Beserker actually increase the Crit Rate?
To be quite honest, I'd love to hear all of your hacking results. If I share this with anyone, I'll be sure to credit you.
Sorry to be treating you as an encyclopedia, but I have a few more critical-hit questions:
No problem :)
- Wondershot, Valkerye, Siren are diff. from Marle/lucca's normal weapons?
Yes, those weapons boost their crit rate from the ordinary one to about 123/256 or about 48.04%.
- Robo's Crisis Arm has a low crit rate?
Yes. Crisis Arm cuts Robo's crit rate by almost half in exchange for its powerful attack. A new crit rate is 18/256 or about 7.03 %, the worst crit rate of all weapons.
- Crono's Kali Blade have higher rate?
Yes. Kali Blade raises his crit rate to the same level with Marle, Lucca and Ayla at level 19-23, 63/256 or about 24.60 %.
- Apparently, Ayla gets fist upgrades (with higher crits) at levels 24, 48, 72, and 96...?
Yes. Her crit rate changes at the levels that you just stated. Specific values are like this.
Lv18-23: 63/256 or about 24.60 %
Lv24-47: 78/256 or about 30.46 %
Lv48-71: 93/256 or about 36.32 % (Same with Crono with the Swallow)
Lv72-95: 108/256 or about 42.18 %
Lv96-99: 33/256 or about 12.89 %
It is interesting to me that her crit rate increases at a rate of about 6.14 % each upgrade until the 3rd one. As well as the weapons mentioned above, Slasher 2 leads the change of crit rate, which increases Crono's crit rate to 69/256 or about 26.95 %.
- Does the Beserker actually increase the Crit Rate?
No. Berserker actually doesn't affect the Crit Rate at all, though the fact would still remain that it is the most useful accessory in a CT run because it allows an equipped character to make an instant and massive attack. It's one of Hero's great findings, I think.
Also, I have to admit that what I told you about the relation between the Berserker and the Crit rate on SDA was just an assumption, sorry.
To be quite honest, I'd love to hear all of your hacking results. If I share this with anyone, I'll be sure to credit you.
I wish I could, but I don't have a detaild knowledge about that kind of thing, so that's almost all I got. Of course, if I find something new and interesting in the future, I'll be glad to share it with everyone.
Damn nice critical values you got there. No wonder why you could manipulate the important critical of Shiva Edge in the Lavos Core Battle during the New Game+ run that well. :-)
Also very impressive battle skips. Especially the one in Reptite's Lair will save alot of time. Very nice findings once again, inichi.
inichi wrote:
No. Berserker actually doesn't affect the Crit Rate at all, though the fact would still remain that it is the most useful accessory in a CT run because it allows an equipped character to make an instant and massive attack. It's one of Hero's great findings, I think.
I actually used the Berserker alot on boses in my 8-segmented unassisted 100% run, which was done a year before hero did his any% TAS here. I think he mentioned to get this idea with the Berserker from my run at first.
In case you wonder, this 100% CT run was my last major one I done on ZSNES unassisted before joining here and switching to Snes9x. I think it still has some useful boss strategies to show, at least for a 100% that finishes all sidequests, such as Robo's perfect Crisis Arm strategies that saved alot of time in the later boss fights for example. If anybody wants to see that run and learn something new in CT, get it and the needed emulator here (first run in the list).
