Arc
Editor, Experienced player (826)
Joined: 3/8/2004
Posts: 534
Location: Arizona
9+9+6 and 9+6+6 at grave 1 are both giving me the same bad spawn at grave 4. The 12+6+6 is necessary to spawn the grave 4 zombie slightly forward so that it doesn't hit me, and I can jump over the next zombie for a 6+6 instead of 6+6+6. It's looking more and more like I already solved this puzzle in 2004. 1: 12+6+6 2: 6+6 3: 6 4: 6+6 5: 6 We'll see if graves 6 and 7 are worth changing.
Arc
Editor, Experienced player (826)
Joined: 3/8/2004
Posts: 534
Location: Arizona
1: 12+6+6 2: 6+6 3: 6 4: 6+6 5: 6 6: 5+6 7: 6+6+6 89. In GuanoBowl's movie, he picks up the money bag at the Red Devil at 2529. In the new Arc v10, I pick it up at 2521. (In Arc v9, I pick it up at 2516, and I have armor and the torch.) So I saved 8 frames instead of 6, somehow. Now we can move on, anyway. I'll put up WIP1 at the end of stage 1. Moving platform notes -It's impossible to damage boost onto the moving platform successfully. You will die. -I think the moving platform always starts moving to the right as soon as you make it appear on screen. -It's impossible to walk off of the right edge of the platform when it's moving to the right. -The moving platform moves only 2 pixels every 3 frames, and so it's best to jump off as early as possible. -There's armor available here, but I'd have to jump to get it.
Skilled player (1742)
Joined: 9/17/2009
Posts: 4984
Location: ̶C̶a̶n̶a̶d̶a̶ "Kanatah"
What exactly happens after the 2nd loop of this game? I know the game starts acting oddly after a while, but does the bad ending still show, or is every subsequent loop the good ending?
Arc
Editor, Experienced player (826)
Joined: 3/8/2004
Posts: 534
Location: Arizona
jlun2 wrote:
What exactly happens after the 2nd loop of this game? I know the game starts acting oddly after a while, but does the bad ending still show, or is every subsequent loop the good ending?
After the "wise and courageour knight" ending, there's a game over. If you continue, you start on stage 7 against Astaroth again, but when you win this time you get the "illusion" ending. So beating it for a third time should result in the "wise and courageour knight" ending.
Arc
Editor, Experienced player (826)
Joined: 3/8/2004
Posts: 534
Location: Arizona
Ok, here is the WIP for stage 1: http://tasvideos.org/userfiles/info/25495034971294727 Total frames, measuring from the frame that Arthur regains armor from the key: Arc v10: 5023 Arc v9: 5041 GuanoBowl: 5075 Arthur can go through enemies that take more than one shot by firing as they hit him. I had to do it to get by the flying knights. I saved time on the boss fight. I think that the only theoretically possible improvements left are if there are some currently unknown manipulations at the graves or platform. I also had to make one jump because of a burrito in my face right before the boss.
Arc
Editor, Experienced player (826)
Joined: 3/8/2004
Posts: 534
Location: Arizona
I've been reviewing the second half of stage 1 to see if I can improve anything. What didn't work: -The moving platform spawns when Arthur is at the devil's grave. But he has to jump once before reaching that grave, otherwise the devil hits him. -I changed the way I kill the devil. It didn't change the rest of the stage. -I tried getting the armor. At the flying knights, I can recover the lost time with a damage boost. It didn't change the burrito spawn though, and so it is slightly slower because of the pixels lost during the damage boost. -I killed a knight. No change to the burrito spawn again. -I killed the first plant earlier. Still no change. -I tried a different method at the boss but it is clearly not as good. What worked: -I double-checked the pixels at the moving platform, and I improved my X position. Although the input timing for most things remains the same—including the frame on which I grab the key—Arthur walks through the door 3 frames earlier because he is slightly closer to the door. Arc v10: Stage 1 goes to black on frame 5137. Arc v9: Stage 1 goes to black on frame 5158. So I am 21 frames ahead now. I declare stage 1 finished. On to stage 2, where the big questions are: -Can I get out of the house faster? -Can I manipulate the platforms better? -Can I beat the boss faster?
Arc
Editor, Experienced player (826)
Joined: 3/8/2004
Posts: 534
Location: Arizona
Stage 2 notes Ice Palace platform 1: -Input registers while the screen is still black. Arthur starts in the air. -If you jump immediately, the X position pauses for only 9 frames. If you jump later it's 12 frames. Ice Palace platform 2: -With no torch, I seemingly have no choice but to jump over the blue demon. -But, it gives me a chance to kill the other blue demon, who cost me 3 frames in v9. -Jumping from under a platform to the one above it causes a 12-frame X position pause. -Jumping again immediately after jumping over the demon still causes a 12-frame pause. So I'm going to lose 12 frames. -I kill the blue demon because he would bother me later. Ice Palace platform 3: -I want to jump off as late as possible in order to avoid falling. When you're falling below your original jumping point, whether by damage boost or regular jump, Arthur moves to the right only 1.5 pixels per 3 frames instead of the usual 3 pixels. Ice Palace moving platform 1: -I want to get off as soon as possible in order to avoid falling. Ice Palace platform 4: -I want to jump off as late as possible in order to avoid falling. Ice Palace moving platform 2: -It doesn't really matter here. 05B5 is the memory address of the X-position of the big man on the first floor of the house. He spawns when you reach the orange building with windows, but his movement changes based on how fast you get through the Ice Palace. There's a good, ok, and bad movement set. And the faster you go, the more likely you are to get the bad one. He's the single most annoying enemy in the game. From my rough attempt: Bird 1 visual: 7603 Bird 2 visual: 7939 Bird 3 visual: 8275 336 frames (from the left), then 339 frames later (from the right). The birds are on a timer. That's why fighting with big men doesn't really matter, as long as you get to the exit spot when the third bird arrives. I have experimented with trying to manipulate the second bird's timing (coming from the left) but I don't think it's possible to reach the top floor quickly enough. With a damage boost, I end up with an X-position of 168 when I hit the ground on frame 8487. With a jump, it's X-position 198 on frame 8539. From the damage boost, I reach X-198 on frame 8519, and so it's definitely faster to fall all the way out of the house. I should be faster on the lifts and boss after escaping the house. I still have a lot of things to test in the Ice Palace and house, though. The first 2 stages of this game are the most difficult and time-consuming.
Active player (437)
Joined: 4/21/2004
Posts: 3517
Location: Stockholm, Sweden
I have read every post you have made, I am strongly rooting for you, wish you the best and I am sure you will find all possible fastest routes. Tasing is tedious as you well know but hang in there :)
Nitrogenesis wrote:
Guys I come from the DidyKnogRacist communite, and you are all wrong, tihs is the run of the mileniun and everyone who says otherwise dosnt know any bater! I found this run vary ease to masturbate too!!!! Don't fuck with me, I know this game so that mean I'm always right!StupedfackincommunityTASVideoz!!!!!!
Arc wrote:
I enjoyed this movie in which hands firmly gripping a shaft lead to balls deep in multiple holes.
natt wrote:
I don't want to get involved in this discussion, but as a point of fact C# is literally the first goddamn thing on that fucking page you linked did you even fucking read it
Cooljay wrote:
Mayor Haggar and Cody are such nice people for the community. Metro City's hospitals reached an all time new record of incoming patients due to their great efforts :P
Arc
Editor, Experienced player (826)
Joined: 3/8/2004
Posts: 534
Location: Arizona
Thank you, AngerFist. I am not going to advance until I understand exactly how to control the big man's movement pattern. So far, all that I know is that different routes in the Ice Palace change the pattern, but I don't know why, because it's not just the timing. I hypothesized that it might be Arthur's X-position. For example, perhaps 100-103-106... caused one pattern, whereas 101-104-107... caused another. But I dismissed this theory after getting two different patterns from the same X-position sequence (but different routes). Neither route gave me the best pattern. I know going high in the Ice Palace gives the best pattern, but it loses time. The next thing I'll look at is whether enemy spawns or deaths matter.
Arc
Editor, Experienced player (826)
Joined: 3/8/2004
Posts: 534
Location: Arizona
I'll try to explain stage 2 now. When I talk about the Ice Palace, I mean this part. The big man's spawn is determined by how fast you go through the Ice Palace. You want to get through the Ice Palace in the fastest way possible that doesn't cause a bad spawn. For example, here's what happened to me: 7115 spawn - 113 X-position - BAD spawn (unusable) 7118 spawn - 110 X-position - BAD spawn (unusable) 7121 spawn - 112 X-position - OK spawn (fastest usable spawn) In other words, I had to intentionally waste 6 frames in the Ice Palace in order to get a spawn that works. Why is it important to avoid a bad spawn? Because the three birds are on a timer, and the timer doesn't start until you get to the house. If you get a bad spawn from the big guy, you can't jump across the water and start the bird timer. You have to kill the big guy before you can start the bird timer (a loss of a few seconds, thus unusable). With the OK spawn, you can enter the house area and start the bird timer, so it doesn't matter that you have to fight the big guy before you can climb the first ladder. All that matters is that you meet the third bird at the exit to the house on time. About 336 frames pass between each bird's appearance no matter what. The only remaining complications are (1) the birds show up slightly inconsistently (e.g. 335, 338, 339 frames) and (2) the speed of the third bird is somewhat variable as well. And so I am trying to optimize how soon the birds show up and how fast the third bird flies.
Skilled player (1742)
Joined: 9/17/2009
Posts: 4984
Location: ̶C̶a̶n̶a̶d̶a̶ "Kanatah"
How does the RNG (if exists) work in this game? Solely by delays?
Arc
Editor, Experienced player (826)
Joined: 3/8/2004
Posts: 534
Location: Arizona
Manipulating enemy spawns and movement seems to be based only on the timing of when Arthur reaches a certain X-position. The stronger enemies react to the frame on which you fire a shot. Like in a boss fight, the boss might jump if you fire on frame 3 but stay on the ground if you fire on frame 6. I'm done with the house now. I'm either 12 or 15 frames ahead of v9 overall. V9 had an advantage using the torch in the Ice Palace. I don't expect to gain much time at the 4 rising platforms. I should be able to do the boss fight faster with the javelin, though.
Arc
Editor, Experienced player (826)
Joined: 3/8/2004
Posts: 534
Location: Arizona
Here is the WIP through stage 2: http://tasvideos.org/userfiles/info/25961029192159419 At the end of stage 1, I was 21 frames faster overall than v9. At the end of the house, I was 12 frames faster (slower because the torch is better). At the end of the rising platforms, I was 24 frames faster. At the end of stage 2, I am 36 frames faster. The rising platforms: I saved 12 frames here. You can change the direction of a platform. Spawn it on screen, then move left so it's off screen. Go right again and it will be moving in the opposite direction (if it was going up then it will be going down). Platform 1: 2 platforms, easiest one. Jump directly to the second one, then drop down. This one is where I gained time because I did a jump shot instead of a standing shot. Platform 2: The only one with 3 platforms. Manipulate the middle one. Platform 3: 2 platforms, a little tricky because of the enemy and setting up platform 4. Platform 4: 2 platforms, the most important one. You have to set up the manipulation perfectly to get that exact platform setup. You know it's the right setup when you can walk directly from the first one onto the second one. Dual boss: I saved 12 frames here so far. I'm going to keep trying to see if I can do it faster. The first one will always do that leap over you. Because of that, I am fairly sure that it's best to get in between the two bosses rather than focusing on the first one. The second one tends to stay too far back otherwise. The idea is to get both of them to pincer me so that my shots go as fast as possible. (You can have only two shots on screen at the same time.) The game becomes significantly easier the rest of the way.
Active player (437)
Joined: 4/21/2004
Posts: 3517
Location: Stockholm, Sweden
Great job Arc! one quick question, when you are crouching, does it take more time to release a shot rather than standing or jumping while shooting an enemy?
Nitrogenesis wrote:
Guys I come from the DidyKnogRacist communite, and you are all wrong, tihs is the run of the mileniun and everyone who says otherwise dosnt know any bater! I found this run vary ease to masturbate too!!!! Don't fuck with me, I know this game so that mean I'm always right!StupedfackincommunityTASVideoz!!!!!!
Arc wrote:
I enjoyed this movie in which hands firmly gripping a shaft lead to balls deep in multiple holes.
natt wrote:
I don't want to get involved in this discussion, but as a point of fact C# is literally the first goddamn thing on that fucking page you linked did you even fucking read it
Cooljay wrote:
Mayor Haggar and Cody are such nice people for the community. Metro City's hospitals reached an all time new record of incoming patients due to their great efforts :P
Arc
Editor, Experienced player (826)
Joined: 3/8/2004
Posts: 534
Location: Arizona
While crouching there are 12 frames between shots. While standing there are 12 frames between shots. While jumping there are 9 frames between shots. With this enemy though, if you do a jump shot 9 frames apart, the second shot will go over its head, unless it is in the air. For example, at the start of the fight, I fire a jump shot at 9706. I could fire another one at 9715, but it will miss. I have to wait until I'm coming back down. 9733 is the earliest shot that can hit. So the "9-frame" double attack is an advantage only if both shots will hit (the enemy is in the air).
Arc
Editor, Experienced player (826)
Joined: 3/8/2004
Posts: 534
Location: Arizona
I improved the stage 2 boss by another 18 frames. I'm 54 frames faster than v9 now. I'm moving on to stage 3. 5 shots left boss 7 shots right boss 5 shots left boss 3 shots right boss (all in air)
Senior Moderator
Joined: 8/4/2005
Posts: 5777
Location: Away
Wow, I love how you finished the right boss off. Excellent fight!
Warp wrote:
Edit: I think I understand now: It's my avatar, isn't it? It makes me look angry.
Arc
Editor, Experienced player (826)
Joined: 3/8/2004
Posts: 534
Location: Arizona
Thank you. I was thrilled that I got the manipulation to work. I earned some technical points there. The bosses change their behavior based on both your position and when you fire shots. The timing window offered no flexibility, either. Stage 3 notes Yellow cave This part is like the stage 1 graveyard, but it's less complicated. The only decision is whether to take a damage boost at tower 1 or tower 2. All previous versions have taken the damage boost at tower 2. But it's faster to damage boost at tower 1. Explaining the differences in words: If you take the red path / damage boost at tower 2: 1. You have to drop shot both zombies [+6 frames] [+6 frames]. 2. You fight this tower instead of at 5. 3. You have to jump over zombies [+3 frames]. 4. The bat is the same either way. 5. There's an extra jump for the damage boost [+3 frames]. 6. You run through all the enemies with invulnerability. [+18 frames total] If you take the blue path / damage boost at tower 1: 1. You damage boost over the zombies and the rock. 2. There's a necessary manipulation jump [+3 frames], but you avoid this tower. 3. The zombies do not appear on this route. 4. The bat is the same either way. 5. You fight this tower instead of at 2. 6. You drop shot one zombie [+6 frames] and jump over the other two [+3 frames]. [+12 frames total] And so this way is 6 frames faster. Now let's compare the timing between this route and when I had the torch in v9: 1. Different methods, but ultimately both just jump over the rock. 2. V9 didn't jump-shot on the last hit. That was a mistake [-6 frames]. 3. The v10 manipulation jump and V9 zombie jump cancel out [0 frames]. 4. The bat is the same either way. 5. There's an extra jump for the V9 damage boost [-3 frames]. 6. V9 does a manipulation jump(?) [-3 frames]. V10 has to fight [+6 frames] [+3 frames]. And so despite my not having the torch, I ended up getting through the yellow caves 3 frames faster (according to the calculations). Unless I need to do that manipulation jump at the end. I won't know until I get to the dragon. For now, we're on the Aggro Crag.
Arc
Editor, Experienced player (826)
Joined: 3/8/2004
Posts: 534
Location: Arizona
http://tasvideos.org/userfiles/info/26349235844045775 I uploaded WIP3, but stage 3 is still incomplete. I haven't figured out how to get the good dragon spawn. It may not be possible without starting from a reset instead of power on. Here is the good dragon spawn that I got in v9: Here is the bad dragon spawn: In this fight you have to use the torch instead of the lance, and you have to hit the dragon on its head. The spawn makes a huge difference in how long the boss fight takes. We're talking about seconds rather than frames. In the bad spawn, the dragon flies way up high and you can't hit him easily. Every GnG movie other than v9 gets the same bad spawn. That's a bad sign for my hopes. However, I do remember in v9 that I had to manipulate things in order to get the good spawn. The original Morimoto movie gets a completely different third spawn variation. In v9, the dragon starts grounded, then goes up, back, down. In Morimoto's, the dragon starts grounded, then goes forward and up. (Still kind of a bad spawn.) However, Morimoto used the Makaimura (J) ROM, so that may be the reason.
Arc
Editor, Experienced player (826)
Joined: 3/8/2004
Posts: 534
Location: Arizona
I'm still working on how to get the good dragon spawn. The good news is that I've made some progress. I've been able to get the good spawn in a sub-optimal attempt. It appears that changing the way that I descend from the Aggro Crag makes a difference. I still haven't isolated the exact variable that activates the good spawn. It's a lot easier to get the bad spawn. I've had a few theories but they all turned out to be incorrect. I was worried that it would be similar to level 2 and I'd have to add extra frames to the yellow caves, but that seems to be unnecessary. It should be just a matter of time until I crack it. After level 3, level 4 is pretty simple. It also has a dragon spawn manipulation, but it's not as difficult as this one. Level 5 has some big men to manipulate, but it's not too bad. Level 6 is fairly easy to TAS until the boss fight.
Senior Moderator
Joined: 8/4/2005
Posts: 5777
Location: Away
Cool, good to know you aren't stuck.
Warp wrote:
Edit: I think I understand now: It's my avatar, isn't it? It makes me look angry.
Alyosha
He/Him
Editor, Emulator Coder, Expert player (3824)
Joined: 11/30/2014
Posts: 2832
Location: US
Not sure if you got it worked out yet or not Arc, but to get a good dragon spawn it looks like you need only turn left as the body spawns but a frame before the head does. http://tasvideos.org/userfiles/info/26787672556905349 Here is a slightly modified file of yours that does it, I believe without losing any frames, it might work in your original file too. Hope it helps. EDIT: oh yeah, also if I just walked forward instead of turning left, I died, apparently the game thought I was at the edge of the screen? I'm sure you know about this just thought I'd mention it.
Arc
Editor, Experienced player (826)
Joined: 3/8/2004
Posts: 534
Location: Arizona
This info should help me out big time. Very much appreciated, thank you. Yes, there's sometimes an 'invisible death pixel' right before the dragon. The game thinks the dragon's head is at that spot. You can attack it and it takes damage.
Arc
Editor, Experienced player (826)
Joined: 3/8/2004
Posts: 534
Location: Arizona
While working on the spawn earlier, I concluded that it's essential to avoid grabbing the money bag when you jump off of the Aggro Crag. Avoiding the money bag and using the left-right move on the correct frame makes the spawn work. Using left-right costs 6 frames, though. I didn't have to use left-right in version 9. So I wonder what else could work. I made a first attempt at the boss fight. I was 54 frames ahead at the start of level 3, and I ended up 57 frames ahead at the end (15488 vs 15545). There should have been -3 frames in the yellow caves, and then +6 from left-right, so I must have done the boss fight 6 frames faster. So, at worst, I'll have an improvement over the previous version. No more worries there. I'm not convinced it's perfect, though. I want those 6 frames somehow. Still working on it.
Arc
Editor, Experienced player (826)
Joined: 3/8/2004
Posts: 534
Location: Arizona
WIP3: http://tasvideos.org/userfiles/info/26869697574822179 Overall, 60 frames faster, 15485 v 15545. Stage 1: 21 frames faster. Stage 2: 33 frames faster. Stage 3: 6 frames faster. I forgot to compare the Aggro Crag times in the previous post. I was 3 frames ahead after the yellow caves. [-3] v9 took 2 extra jumps at the first devil, v10 takes 1. [-6] Both jump twice at the second devil. Both jump once at the third devil. v9 took an extra jump at the fourth devil. [-9] Both need a 3-frame delay at the fifth devil. v10 wastes 6 frames for the good dragon spawn. [-3] I improved the boss fight by another 3 frames. So I completed the stage 6 frames faster than v9. Thus, my first boss attempt must have been equal to v9, and now it's 3 frames better. I am out of ideas for ways to improve level 3 any more. I don't know how to get the good spawn without wasting more than 6 frames. I tried to get the dragon to move straight ahead, which I know is possible. But I think you need the long-ranged javelin (which is ineffective on the dragon) to do it. I think that I could save 3 frames with better pixel position on the key grab, but there's no way to improve pixel position. (I tried using the step at the end.) The dragon requires 6 hits to the head with the torch. I jump attack (2 hits) as early as possible to get the dragon moving as early as possible. I get only 1 hit in on the second jump attack because the dragon's head is rising. I then move left while he's moving right in order to get it to turn left as soon as possible. I jump straight up as early and as close as I can. I can get only 2 hits in. Jump attack as early as possible for the final hit. Moving on to stage 4 where I expect to improve 0-6 frames.