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Posted: 11/16/2005 5:29 PM
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JXQ
Experienced player (761)
Joined: 5/6/2005
Posts: 3132
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Thanks, I think I understand. Basically, you can use savestates to rewind, but not to rewind and then fast forward through a different technique. This will take a bit of getting used to. Lots of backups!
<Swordless> Go hug a tree, you vegetarian (I bet you really are one)
Posted: 11/16/2005 10:16 PM
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JXQ
Experienced player (761)
Joined: 5/6/2005
Posts: 3132
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Apologies for the double post. I have finished the first act one frame ahead of the latest run by Xebra (my comparison was between the first frame the sign at the goal started spinning). I believe the end is improvable a bit more, so I will work on it more later tonight. I gained two frames near the beginning, when jumping up to the ring monitor, although I'm not sure exactly what caused it. It pretty much looks identical to Xebra's run, which doesn't surprise me since his run is so well optimized. I think I jumped a bit different in the loop-the-loop, it may be noticeable if you're really looking for it. The S-curves also gave me problems, but then I read this forum more and I guess they gave everyone problems! So then I didn't feel so dumb. Just guess-and-check until I entered the curve early enough and with enough speed. If someone enlightens me to a place where I can upload GMV files, I'll gladly share it to see what everyone thinks. EDIT: Hahaha post 304! It's funny because 304 upside down spells hoe (on a digital clock, for example).
<Swordless> Go hug a tree, you vegetarian (I bet you really are one)
Posted: 11/16/2005 11:53 PM
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Truncated
Editor, Reviewer, Experienced player (979)
Joined: 4/17/2004
Posts: 3109
Location: Sweden
Arcade TAS of 2023 Sega TASer of 2021 Sega TAS of 2021
Wow, sounds great! You can try either filespace.org or rapidshare.de, both of them offer free storage. I don't know why DeHackEd's microstorage doesn't, really.
Posted: 11/16/2005 11:58 PM
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AngerFist
Active player (437)
Joined: 4/21/2004
Posts: 3517
Location: Stockholm, Sweden
First edition TAS of 2015 Innovative TAS of 2007
JXQ, you probably know this but from what I know, (got this info from SprintGod) when Sonic is in a loop, often it is faster to jump inside the loop to get out of it faster. Hope that made any sense.
Nitrogenesis wrote:
Guys I come from the DidyKnogRacist communite, and you are all wrong, tihs is the run of the mileniun and everyone who says otherwise dosnt know any bater! I found this run vary ease to masturbate too!!!! Don't fuck with me, I know this game so that mean I'm always right!StupedfackincommunityTASVideoz!!!!!!
Arc wrote:
I enjoyed this movie in which hands firmly gripping a shaft lead to balls deep in multiple holes.
natt wrote:
I don't want to get involved in this discussion, but as a point of fact C# is literally the first goddamn thing on that fucking page you linked did you even fucking read it
Cooljay wrote:
Mayor Haggar and Cody are such nice people for the community. Metro City's hospitals reached an all time new record of incoming patients due to their great efforts :P
Posted: 11/17/2005 12:32 AM
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JXQ
Experienced player (761)
Joined: 5/6/2005
Posts: 3132
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Hey the file is only 1K zipped. I can put it at Geocities. The run is here. Comparison to Xebra's v3: Two frames ahead at the midpost. I also didn't have to let go of -> for two frames, just the luck of the frame I was on. I enter the S-pipes at the same frame (meaning I lost the two I was ahead somehow), but have a tiny bit more speed, so I exit the S-pipes one frame earlier, and this is the one frame I improved on the level. Comments / mistakes / info, whatever anyone's got, is appreciated. I'm still a little confused by the physics but I'm catching on. It's more of a guess-and-check each case than a general rulebook at this point. Thanks for the tip Angerfist, I did know that, as you'll see in the WIP. The next two levels I think will go faster because it appears that getting the speed shoes simplifies things a bit.
<Swordless> Go hug a tree, you vegetarian (I bet you really are one)
Posted: 11/17/2005 12:36 AM
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Shark
Joined: 9/16/2005
Posts: 26
Location: KY
I'm glad you're starting this JXQ, I wish you the best on it.
Posted: 11/17/2005 4:39 AM
(Edited: 11/17/2005 5:55 AM)
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JXQ
Experienced player (761)
Joined: 5/6/2005
Posts: 3132
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Thanks Shark (and earlier, IdeaMagnate) for the support. I seem to have a lot of it, and I feel I'll need it! The run has been updated to Green Hill Zone 2. Comments: I ended up gaining a frame by the end, which puts me 2 frames up altogether. I got the speed shoes 2 frames near the beginning by steering left slightly after bouncing off the enemy before going through the wall to increase momentum to the right. One of those frames was lost by the end, I think it was in the segment just before the S-pipe hitting all the enemies. I pressed backwards for one frame just before entering the pipe and it gave me extra speed when exiting. I'll probably work on Green Hill 3 tomorrow.
<Swordless> Go hug a tree, you vegetarian (I bet you really are one)
Posted: 11/17/2005 5:05 AM
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xebra
Joined: 5/3/2004
Posts: 1203
Your run looks good, though the link you posted does not include GH2, and you missed a coin in GH1. You can easily shave some time off GH3 by just not getting the invulnerability; I got it because I thought it was pretty and I didn't think I could get the game clock down to 0"30. I personally prefer aesthetics (not missing a coin in a loop, having sparklies to look at in an otherwise boring level) to frames when it doesn't affect the game clock, but it's your call, really.
Posted: 11/17/2005 6:03 AM
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JXQ
Experienced player (761)
Joined: 5/6/2005
Posts: 3132
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Apparently Geocities doesn't like me overwriting files, and just leaves the original. So I uploaded a new file and updated the link for GH2. I didn't realize I missed that ring at the time, but looking back, I don't think I'd change it, because I finally got a combination of jumps that worked for me at that loop to get a good speed going to and coming out of the S-pipe, and that was getting frustrating after awhile. I'll try to focus more on aesthetics, as I think they are important, but it's not really my strong point. Thanks for the advice!
<Swordless> Go hug a tree, you vegetarian (I bet you really are one)
Posted: 11/17/2005 7:28 AM
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AdmiralJonB
Joined: 6/20/2004
Posts: 292
Location: United Kingdom
nifboy wrote:
The curse of "nobody ever finishes this game, ever".
Hmm.... Maybe I could try and do this and maybe the curse will give me a life :P JXQ, good luck in breaking the curse!
Posted: 11/17/2005 4:33 PM
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Fabian
Former player
Joined: 6/15/2005
Posts: 1711
Just making sure I understand how the fadeout works. After the countdown of the time bonus the game waits a fixed amount of time and then starts the fadeout, regardless of where Sonic is on (or off) the screen, correct?
Zoey Ridin' High <Fabian_> I prett much never drunk
Posted: 11/17/2005 4:37 PM
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JXQ
Experienced player (761)
Joined: 5/6/2005
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Yeah, the duration of the bonus is what controls how long between the sign spinning and the screen fading. At the end of Green Hill 2, I just waited until running to the right would put Sonic just off the screen, that way it looked cool. Technically, if a level time is very close to 30 seconds, it would be less frames to wait until that time, so the bonus is 10,000 instead of 50,000...but that would be stupid, and allow for all sorts of unoptimized portions in the level. And no random fadeout BS from Mario World here either! Frames gained in one level will carry over to the next. I'm happy about that.
<Swordless> Go hug a tree, you vegetarian (I bet you really are one)
Posted: 11/17/2005 7:52 PM
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JXQ
Experienced player (761)
Joined: 5/6/2005
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Finished with Green Hill 3. The WIP is here. Comments: I started the level 36 frames ahead of Xebra's run, and I had no idea why - the end-of-level sign started spinning only 2 frames sooner on my run. I eventually discovered that at the end of a level, the winning music begins after the sign stops spinning and Sonic is off the screen to the right. Xebra jumped and got the score bonuses earlier than this music, and he was on screen for 34 frames after the sign stopped spinning. This may have been intentional on his part, but I didn't notice it until I started on GH3 today. Ended up gaining 11 frames in Green Hill 3. Here is the list of checkpoints I used, although not all of them are perfectly reliable (because of the placement of Sonic on a spring, for example). 
			              Xebra          JXQ       Diff
-----------------------------------------------------
GH2 sign spin          1.17.05        1.17.03   0.02
GH2 fadeout begin      1.35.54        1.35.18	0.36

GH3 First jump         1.39.43        1.39.07   0.36
GH3 First spring       1.45.38        1.44.56   0.42
GH3 Shoes              1.48.23        1.47.43   0.40
GH3 First enemy bop    1.52.35        1.51.52   0.43
GH3 First boss hit     2.00.47        2.00.03   0.44
GH3 Boss explode       2.05.05        2.04.17   0.48
GH3 Hit end switch     2.11.20        2.10.33   0.47
The frames lost between the spring and shoes are from different frame offset on the spring, I believe. I'm not sure how the frame was lost at the end; it may be that Robotnik's explosion can begin on multiples of certain frames and that one of the frames that appeared to be gained there actually was not. I also didn't take the invincibility at the beginning. Xebra took it to give the viewer something to watch during the level (since it's very airborne), but I always thought that the level was extremely entertaining in its own right, and there is another invincibility just before the boss, so I chose to skip it in favor of a few frames. The game becomes much different for Marble Zone, I think I can actually optimize a blocky, cave-like level like this better than a wide-open, wavy-grounded level. I still have Xebra's v2 WIP to look to for pointers, so hopefully I can keep making improvements.
<Swordless> Go hug a tree, you vegetarian (I bet you really are one)
Posted: 11/17/2005 7:57 PM
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AngerFist
Active player (437)
Joined: 4/21/2004
Posts: 3517
Location: Stockholm, Sweden
First edition TAS of 2015 Innovative TAS of 2007
Exactly how many levels are there in Sonic 1?
Nitrogenesis wrote:
Guys I come from the DidyKnogRacist communite, and you are all wrong, tihs is the run of the mileniun and everyone who says otherwise dosnt know any bater! I found this run vary ease to masturbate too!!!! Don't fuck with me, I know this game so that mean I'm always right!StupedfackincommunityTASVideoz!!!!!!
Arc wrote:
I enjoyed this movie in which hands firmly gripping a shaft lead to balls deep in multiple holes.
natt wrote:
I don't want to get involved in this discussion, but as a point of fact C# is literally the first goddamn thing on that fucking page you linked did you even fucking read it
Cooljay wrote:
Mayor Haggar and Cody are such nice people for the community. Metro City's hospitals reached an all time new record of incoming patients due to their great efforts :P
Posted: 11/17/2005 8:17 PM
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Patashu
He/Him
Joined: 10/2/2005
Posts: 4043
Green Hill, Marble, Spring Yard, Labyrinth, Star Light, Scrap Brain all x3... That'd make it 18, I believe.
My Chiptune music, made in Famitracker: http://soundcloud.com/patashu My twitch. I stream mostly shmups & rhythm games http://twitch.tv/patashu My youtube, again shmups and rhythm games and misc stuff: http://youtube.com/user/patashu
Posted: 11/17/2005 9:05 PM
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Bladegash
Former player
Joined: 3/9/2004
Posts: 484
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Don't forget Final Zone.
Posted: 11/17/2005 9:34 PM
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Ouzo
Former player
Joined: 8/15/2004
Posts: 422
Location: Minnesota
In GHZ3, is there a way to avoid having to land on the platform in order to hit Robotnik one last time? BTW, it's looking awesome. Keep it up.
Posted: 11/17/2005 11:06 PM
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JXQ
Experienced player (761)
Joined: 5/6/2005
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Ouzo wrote:
In GHZ3, is there a way to avoid having to land on the platform in order to hit Robotnik one last time?
I tried a lot of different approaches to Robotnik. I tried hitting him from the right (using the edge of the screen as a momentum resetter) down low, so a low bounce would put me up at his head without the delay that happens on the first hit when coming from the left. Unfortunately, the delay is only moved to the extra time it takes to travel over Robotnik. If it was possible to hit him from the left side, and not ricochet to the left so far, then it might be possible, but I don't know a way to make that happen. I did find a different bouncing route that collects invincibility earlier (which does make flying through the air look cooler) and after defeating Robotnik I was able to hit the plunger one frame earlier. When I finish Marble Zone 1, the WIP I will upload will have this improvement as well. And thanks for the encouragement, I hope I can keep it up!
<Swordless> Go hug a tree, you vegetarian (I bet you really are one)
Posted: 11/18/2005 1:14 AM
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xebra
Joined: 5/3/2004
Posts: 1203
I am starting to dislike your run stylistically. Part of it may be that this is the first time you have run this game; I had lots of experience with it in my v3 video and in the v2 video in all levels past the first 6. Part of it, though, is that it looks needlessly artificial at times, for example, your slow walk at the end of GH1. To me, there's no difference between that and wobbling, and it just seems ugly to me. Sonic also doesn't seem to "flow" as much in GH2, for example, there is a lot less gratuitous bouncing and less time between jumps. When I figured out what the minimal time I thought I could achieve on a level was, I then went back and said, "Ok, can I bounce on more things without losing time on the game clock? What's the maximum amount of time I can put between jumps so Sonic doesn't look spastic? Can I collect any more coins?" etc. I'm also of the opinion that if you can't do something different and interesting each time you collect the bonus tags, you should do it quickly and smoothly and get Sonic off the screen. It's a little boring to see him just standing there.
Posted: 11/18/2005 1:35 AM
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JXQ
Experienced player (761)
Joined: 5/6/2005
Posts: 3132
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I looked over GH2 of both our runs; there is one jump I take at a later time than you do, which is the one that lands on the red spring, otherwise the jumps were nearly at the same spots. Every time I let go of the jump button early enough to do extra bouncing, I was reaching the S-pipe about three frames slower. I guess what I'm saying is that it's not that I'm ignoring these things, but I think that frames are more important, usually, and if I can get the frames I want, I don't want to spend so much time on certain portions that it makes me tired of the run. And I was using the slow walk in GH1 and the bored animation in GH2 as different ideas to pass the time while the score counts down. As I said, aesthetics are not my strong point, but I'll keep trying to keep these ideas in mind best I can as I continue the run. Thanks for your help!
<Swordless> Go hug a tree, you vegetarian (I bet you really are one)
Posted: 11/18/2005 12:59 PM
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Fabian
Former player
Joined: 6/15/2005
Posts: 1711
Of course it's entirely up to you what to aim for in terms of style and frames etc, and it's good that everyone voices their opinion so you know what other people think, but fwiw my own opinion is that the frames you gain are much more important than making a jump look non-tool assisted. I also liked the slow running.
Zoey Ridin' High <Fabian_> I prett much never drunk
Posted: 11/18/2005 2:51 PM
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JXQ
Experienced player (761)
Joined: 5/6/2005
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In Marble Zone 1, I'm having a hell of a time with the lava bounce. Xebra, I remember you mentioned having trouble with this as well. Is there anything I should know that might help? In the mean time I'm working on an alternative lava-jump method that hits the lava earlier. It doesn't look quite as cool, and currently it's slower because I get to the platforms that move in and out of the wall just a bit too late to jump to the second one in time. I had a GMV but the desync gods decreed that it shall not be usable. I'll keep working on this. EDIT: Marble Zone 1 complete. The WIP is here. Comments: I'm now comparing my times to Xebra's v2, which is played up to Labrynth Zone 1. It can be found earlier on this forum. There's a 241 frame difference between his v2 and v3, so I subtracted that for comparison times. 
Marble Zone 1          Xebra    -4.01    JXQ      Diff
---------------------------------------------------------
First jump             2.34.36  2.30.35  2.29.47  0.48
Shield	              2.46.08  2.42.07  2.41.04  0.63
Land-push              2.56.59  2.52.58  2.51.58  0.60
Land-bottom            3.04.24  3.00.23  2.59.30  0.53
After Lava Platform    3.09.33  3.05.32  3.04.47  0.45
Blockappear            3.11.36  3.07.35  3.06.43  0.53
AboveGround            3.17.40  3.13.39  3.10.58  2.41
End                    3.23.23  3.19.22  3.16.39  2.43
I jumped down to the lava differently because I use the speed to jump into the lava at a different part. The frames lost from this difference are because of different placement; the actual seven frames lost were from doing the lava portion differently - I'm placed in front of a block I must jump over before heading right. I was able to jump directly onto the top of the last spiked weight, saving a lot of time. I'm not sure if this was possible in Xebra's v2 or not, it may be different timing, much like the different randomness in the lava portion, or it may not be; I didn't test it. The level is finishable two frames sooner, but hitting the enemies at the end delayed one frame, and jumping into all the bonuses delayed another. Both looked cool, and two frames isn't much of a price to pay. Final time of 0:46 for the level. EDIT-SQUARED: Also, this WIP has the newer version of Green Hill 3.
<Swordless> Go hug a tree, you vegetarian (I bet you really are one)
Posted: 11/18/2005 8:02 PM
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xebra
Joined: 5/3/2004
Posts: 1203
I can't watch your update at the moment, but did you manage to not wait for the sliding blocks? I was expecting more than a 2 second improvement.
Posted: 11/18/2005 11:01 PM
Quote
xebra
Joined: 5/3/2004
Posts: 1203
Ok, I just watched it. I would say don't move on to Marble 2 just yet, I refuse to believe that's the best that can be done. I think the original path is best, it is possible to get a good lava bounce. Just because it's hard doesn't mean you don't have an obligation to do it. Let me d/l the latest Gens and I'll see what I can see.
Posted: 11/18/2005 11:35 PM
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daniayaw
Former player
Joined: 7/29/2005
Posts: 459
Location: Brazil
hmm.. any particular reason to do this TAS with the REV00 version, jxq?
<small>My big signature was cleared by admin; i should read <a href="http://tasvideos.org/ForumRules.html">forum rules</a>. But... who does?</small>
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