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Former player
Joined: 3/13/2004
Posts: 706
Location: Elyria/Oberlin, OH
Alright, USM1 and 2 are done and uploaded. Turns out those two hits in USM1 are the way to go after all. Onto the answers... Sorry, no diamond trick. I tried...it actually wastes around a second, because it takes awhile for the diamond to drop down to you. =/ And, remember, the point of my run is longest path, sort of. If it branches at any point, I take whichever is the longest way to the point where they meet; Elsewhere A is longer than just beating HWP2, so I took that route even though getting Cyclone saves lots of time in subsequent levels. I decided upon this for entertainment purposes, as I think it's a lot of fun to watch Cyclone handle these early levels (especially considering how difficult it is to keep him in a real game). So, Elsewhere B is quite a bit shorter than USM2 (Cyclone makes it into a total joke, but even without him this is the case), so I'm just playing through that level the normal way. Also, USM2 is way more difficult and entertaining IMO, and I am proud of this level as it led me to discover some interesting tricks. See, if you fall off a ledge then float, you maintain the falling speed for a little while. Thus, instead of jumping over gaps, it's generally faster to fall then just barely fly over them. It's similar to the trick of enemy bouncing then flying...that one was what led me to wonder about damage BTW. I had thought about bouncing off of a crystal in this level then flying the whole rest of the way, but the boost doesn't last nearly long enough to benefit you over the hit in USM1. Anyway, the falling trick comes into play quite a bit in this level, especially in the second half where there's basically no room to walk. And yes, there are times in these two levels where I fall and don't use it...I have tested extensively and can say that it does not save time in these areas. The other neat trick can be seen in the first half...watch closely to see how I cross these one-block gaps while running. Also, note that I run straight over the first two of these gaps; this is a matter of luck manipulation, which is why some of my movements prior to that point are not quite optimal. If you knew about some of these things already, then sorry. I had never known about them and was quite happy to figure them out...anyway, watch and nitpick! =) -Josh
but then you take my 75 perchance chance of winning, if we was to go one-on-one, and then add 66 and two-thirds ch...percents...i got a 141 and two-thirds chance of winning at sacrifice
Editor, Reviewer, Experienced player (979)
Joined: 4/17/2004
Posts: 3109
Location: Sweden
I'll be sure to watch it the moment I get home. Some of the comments confuse me, but perhaps I'll understand when I've seen the vid. This one, though: >Sorry, no diamond trick. I tried...it actually wastes around a second, because it takes awhile for the diamond to drop down to you. =/ It sounds like you ducked as the diamond came down, and not directly when you landed. How long the diamond takes to drop down shouldn't matter as long as it's faster than the time it takes for the teleporter to activate. And that was the case when I tried it at least. But maybe there's some kind of anomaly here, i.e the teleporter takes longer to activate if you are in ducking state. I only thought the countdown was reset every time you ducked and that was it. I will test some more on this. Catch ya later.
Editor, Reviewer, Experienced player (979)
Joined: 4/17/2004
Posts: 3109
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About longest path: I see what you mean, sort of. You are not specifically going for most levels. What if there are two possible paths in a level, which leads to the same goal then... will you take the longer one then too? >See, if you fall off a ledge then float, you maintain the falling speed for a little while. Yep, I know and I did so in my video (USM1, at the slopes before the spikes). Coming to think of it, there might be one place where I missed to use it. (Nightmare Peaks 2). Chalk up another possible improvement for next warping version. >I had thought about bouncing off of a crystal in this level then flying the whole rest of the way, but the boost doesn't last nearly long enough to benefit you over the hit in USM1. What do you mean here: does the extra speed from the bounce wear off after a while, or isn't there enough room to use the boost to make up for taking one less hit in USM1? From what I can see in Nifboy's video, the extra speed didn't wear off by time. Were you spinning when you bounced, or did you start spinning afterwards? Nifboy started spinning exactly as he bounced. (Which also gave a strange graphical bug: he turned into a white cyclone helmet for one frame.) For what I can see, he kept the high speed during the rest of the level. Maybe the fact that he fell onto the enemy from a ledge plays a factor. Hmm... >The other neat trick can be seen in the first half...watch closely to see how I cross these one-block gaps while running. Known and used, in the beginning of Diamond Edge. It's also listed on the Kid Chameleon tricks page (very bottom). Have you read it? The Cyclone tricks and anomalies are not listed though, somehow that fell of the radar. I'll go ahead and add them after this message. Also I recorded a GMV of the diamond trick, which my ftp host refuses to upload for some reason. Contact me on icq or via email if you want it. As I expected the delay was 2 frames. Your video exits the level at 44:24, mine with diamond trick at 44:26. Edit: fixed link
Former player
Joined: 3/13/2004
Posts: 706
Location: Elyria/Oberlin, OH
Y'know, I checked the tricks page before starting all this, but somehow I missed the stuff with ducking. =/ And thanks for adding Cyclone! Within a level itself I would use the shortest route that fits within my goal. I'm trying to beat the levels themselves as quickly as possible, but use the longest set of levels. And thanks about the diamond trick, I'll go back and do it. Don't worry, USM2 is a breeze to record since I've done it so often now. =P The extra speed from the bounce wore off after a little while. But I forgot that he did it right when he bounced...good thing I still have my other savestate, it's time for more testing. -Josh
but then you take my 75 perchance chance of winning, if we was to go one-on-one, and then add 66 and two-thirds ch...percents...i got a 141 and two-thirds chance of winning at sacrifice
Editor, Reviewer, Experienced player (979)
Joined: 4/17/2004
Posts: 3109
Location: Sweden
I separated the ducking tricks with subheadings, it should be easier to read now. Let me know what the testing gives and I'll update the page with whatever information you find. So... I just found _THE_COOLEST_TRICK_EVER_. Okay, so it's actually an identical bug to another game, but it's still pretty awesome. But my homepage is still having hiccups, so you'll have to wait to see it. I'm not telling, it has to be seen in all it's glory.
Former player
Joined: 3/13/2004
Posts: 706
Location: Elyria/Oberlin, OH
Well, I just tested this right now, and I can tell you that if you fly after bouncing, your boost will last quite awhile, but definitely NOT forever, no matter what you do. So in the end it's not worth doing in USM2. Also, I happen to know EXACTLY the bug you are talking about. You made me suspect something with that post of yours, and I tested it out and turned out to be right. However, the only time it seems to be useful in this game is when there's a horizontal gap that can't be jumped over and could lead to a shortcut, AND you don't have Cyclone or Skycutter... -Josh
but then you take my 75 perchance chance of winning, if we was to go one-on-one, and then add 66 and two-thirds ch...percents...i got a 141 and two-thirds chance of winning at sacrifice
Former player
Joined: 3/13/2004
Posts: 706
Location: Elyria/Oberlin, OH
OK, I figured out the diamond trick finally. The new movie through USM2 is up now (Filespace seems to not like using the same filename more than once, even if the previous one was deleted, hence the different name). I'm actually glad that I had a reason to redo USM2, as I improved it by quite a few frames. Now I'm sick of Under Skull Mountain in general, and the next one is the longest and trickiest of them all. It's also an area where Cyclone is going to save a ton of time, as I won't have to wait for the platforms... So, nitpick now or forever hold your peace! =P -Josh
but then you take my 75 perchance chance of winning, if we was to go one-on-one, and then add 66 and two-thirds ch...percents...i got a 141 and two-thirds chance of winning at sacrifice
Editor, Reviewer, Experienced player (979)
Joined: 4/17/2004
Posts: 3109
Location: Sweden
Filespace is down, so the nitpicking will have to wait for a while. Hope I don't forfeit my chance because of that. :P (Edit: filespace is online again.) Yeah, it sounds like we found the same bug. For anyone interested, here is a GMV: http://133an.sytes.net/~truncated/KC_airwalk.gmv I will add it to the tricks page shortly. As you all can see, the trick works in a nearly identical way to Rygar. Even though it looks incredible, I (like Josh) haven't actually been able to figure out any place where it could be used yet. But I'm pretty sure I will. Oh, and Josh, sorry I couldn't show you the diamond trick more in detail. Hope it didn't took too long to figure out... it turns out the ftp server had crashed.
Player (71)
Joined: 8/24/2004
Posts: 2562
Location: Sweden
Nice trick. :) Sorry about the FTP crashing.
Editor, Reviewer, Experienced player (979)
Joined: 4/17/2004
Posts: 3109
Location: Sweden
I have nothing to say Josh. Great job! :) Don't worry Highness. Shit happens. I also updated the tricks pages with your info, the airwalk, and some other stuff.
Former player
Joined: 3/13/2004
Posts: 706
Location: Elyria/Oberlin, OH
Truncated: Thanks a lot. =) But guess what, guys...it's redo time yet again! I FINALLY figured out how to make it through those ghost blocks in USM1. See, if you run down that slope then run backward a bit before you fall, you'll hit the cannon blocks a bit faster than you would if you had jumped down like I did. This gives you just barely enough time to jump through the blocks as they form. I figured this out while working my way through USM3, actually, as the same technique is the best way of going down all those little slopes in that stage. It should help in other places as well, so I'm glad I found it out now. -Josh
but then you take my 75 perchance chance of winning, if we was to go one-on-one, and then add 66 and two-thirds ch...percents...i got a 141 and two-thirds chance of winning at sacrifice
Editor, Reviewer, Experienced player (979)
Joined: 4/17/2004
Posts: 3109
Location: Sweden
Good catch! I had a similar experience with Alien Isle, I was JUST barely missing the ghost blocks at the middle of the level. I redid it a few times and managed to cram out those extra 3 frames I needed to pass. Great feeling of outsmarting the game, huh? :) Good luck with USM2 (again...) and USM3. At least the lion level should be a breeze, you can just fly left up to the flag.
Former player
Joined: 5/31/2004
Posts: 375
I was just thinking Alien Isle might not be a bad place to see if airwalking helps. It doesn't work as Micromax (who can't duck), though, so you'd have to lose the helmet when you get there.
Former player
Joined: 3/13/2004
Posts: 706
Location: Elyria/Oberlin, OH
Truncated wrote:
Good catch! I had a similar experience with Alien Isle, I was JUST barely missing the ghost blocks at the middle of the level. I redid it a few times and managed to cram out those extra 3 frames I needed to pass. Great feeling of outsmarting the game, huh? :) Good luck with USM2 (again...) and USM3. At least the lion level should be a breeze, you can just fly left up to the flag.
Haha, interesting. And yep, Isle of the Lion Lord will feature this run's first Awesome Shortcut (tm nifboy). I probably won't post an update again until that's done... -Josh
but then you take my 75 perchance chance of winning, if we was to go one-on-one, and then add 66 and two-thirds ch...percents...i got a 141 and two-thirds chance of winning at sacrifice
Editor, Reviewer, Experienced player (979)
Joined: 4/17/2004
Posts: 3109
Location: Sweden
>I was just thinking Alien Isle might not be a bad place to see if airwalking helps. It doesn't work as Micromax (who can't duck), though, so you'd have to lose the helmet when you get there. The first half of the level can be done much faster with micromax, because he doesn't need to use the teleport. (Coming to think of it, I haven't tested going for the teleport with Micromax. Hm.) So you'll probably have to lose him after the ghost blocks, which is difficult. At the pillars you cannot go straight without disarming the cannon blocks, which only Micromax can do (without getting hurt at least)... and cannot go under them unless you can fly or climb. And in any case, Micromax goes faster than just running here, because he bounces on the ships most of the time. The moment I found the bug I sat down and looked trough my vid to see if I could find anywhere where it could be used... but so far nothing. What is the maximum speed which you can airwalk, compared to regular running? Can anyone check? I have to let go of A when I perform it. :/
Former player
Joined: 3/13/2004
Posts: 706
Location: Elyria/Oberlin, OH
Even while holding A, it is still quite slow, definitely worse than jumping even. =/ -Josh
but then you take my 75 perchance chance of winning, if we was to go one-on-one, and then add 66 and two-thirds ch...percents...i got a 141 and two-thirds chance of winning at sacrifice
Former player
Joined: 3/13/2004
Posts: 706
Location: Elyria/Oberlin, OH
Alright, I'm done up through USM2 again...saved 54 frames entirely from those ghost blocks. Also, while falling and flying like usual in USM2, I get him to turn into a blue cyclone helmet for 1 frame. This only happened once, don't ask me why, but I got it into the video now. =) EDIT: Alright, just finished the lion stage and uploaded the new movie (remember, USM1 onward was all redone because of the ghost blocks). And I just realized I can probably land sooner in the lion stage, so I will work on that. Anything else, feel free to say. =) -Josh
but then you take my 75 perchance chance of winning, if we was to go one-on-one, and then add 66 and two-thirds ch...percents...i got a 141 and two-thirds chance of winning at sacrifice
Former player
Joined: 3/13/2004
Posts: 706
Location: Elyria/Oberlin, OH
Well, turns out that the lower path is actually faster at the end of USM3. I hadn't thought to try it at first, but with Cyclone it's worth it because you can jump on a guy there and bounce-fly right into the flag. Unfortunately there's no way to land before it and duck, because there's a fire guy in the way, but it's still 7 frames faster than the optimized top path. Truncated: As for your other ideas...ducking at the hill doesn't work at all, you can't double bounce on that dragon at all, and landing on that first ledge on the top path is faster but meaningless because the bottom path is better anyway. I also improved the lion stage a tad, I think I've gotten all I can out of this. I initially thought I could bump up into one of those blocks before the flag, then fly just enough to barely reach the ledge; the problem with that is that if you do this, you either don't make the ledge or fly straight into the flag. Using another way, I did manage to land a bit earlier, so I think this is optimized now... The total time for this now is 3:58:48 (min:sec:frames), with right about 10,000 rerecords. Hmm, maybe I could break Sonic 3's record with this baby. =P Next update will be after Hills of the Warrior 1...I would've added these improved levels right now, but the next level is a pretty simple one so I'll just wait until then. -Josh
but then you take my 75 perchance chance of winning, if we was to go one-on-one, and then add 66 and two-thirds ch...percents...i got a 141 and two-thirds chance of winning at sacrifice
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Joined: 4/17/2004
Posts: 3109
Location: Sweden
Nice to hear some of the ideas worked at least. Sorry to waste your time with the others... HotW1 should be interesting I think. There are a lot of bouncable enemies in good positions, if memory serves.
Former player
Joined: 3/13/2004
Posts: 706
Location: Elyria/Oberlin, OH
Hey, no problem, more ideas are ALWAYS a good thing. Don't worry about "wasting" my time! =) And yes, I was able to get a double-bounce flight for awhile in HotW1 and it looks awesome. However, right now I'm testing out whether it would be faster to take damage here (with all those spikes flying at you) or to stick with my normal plan in USM1... EDIT: Never mind, I figured out how to manipulate it so that I don't risk getting hit. The level is done and the new movie is uploaded. I love this one, particularly at the end when I get another double bounce and fly all the way to the end. It seems that landing and ducking at the flag is slower when doing this, so I just fly into it... I don't crawl under that cannon block there because of the manipulation (I need the enemy ahead to take the spikes), and a couple other (slightly) suboptimal movements are made so that I can run over 1-block gaps. You can't triple bounce on that guy at the end, unfortunately, and you can't take the lower path near the end without bumping into something and losing your speed. -Josh
but then you take my 75 perchance chance of winning, if we was to go one-on-one, and then add 66 and two-thirds ch...percents...i got a 141 and two-thirds chance of winning at sacrifice
Editor, Reviewer, Experienced player (979)
Joined: 4/17/2004
Posts: 3109
Location: Sweden
Hm, I don't think you need to mind about taking damage in USM1. Basically everything loses less time than that. Hills of the Warrior is without doubt your best level yet! :D Two double-bounces which lasts forever, and one of which is positively impossible to pull off. Wheeeee... The only things I could think of was - you don't bounce on the (poor) guy who takes the spikes in your place. But it looks like he's too close to the wall, so I guess that's why. - the two ghostblocks you jump over, can't you drop off ledge and spin? - you land late on the line of ghost blocks over the rubber pit. I'm thinking maybe you have to to clear the corner before. Or maybe the drop-off speed hasn't worn off yet. Anyway, did I mention that this level is fantastic? :)
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Joined: 5/31/2004
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Agreed, it's an awesome level. My only idea concerns that stupid cannon block that stops your first double-bounce. Did you try crawling under it as it disappears, or is that slower?
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Joined: 3/13/2004
Posts: 706
Location: Elyria/Oberlin, OH
Thanks a lot for the compliments, guys! All of your concerns can be explained... It's possible to bounce on the guy after the spikes and fly to the upper path, but that's actually slower than what I do. You have to wait for the spikes to fly over you, then jump on him. With the two ghost blocks, you have to jump over that pit. If you fall and spin, you WILL fly right into the edge there. The flight to the rubber pit is actually only 1 frame below optimal (you're going to fly over a bit of it no matter what), and that is needed to run over that 1-block gap ahead. And you can't afford to crawl under that damn cannon block. It would be a lot faster, but it manipulates the enemy ahead to take the lowest spikes; this forces you to wait for all the spikes to fly over you, and that takes forever. Thus, what I do there is necessary for proper luck manipulation. =/ Keep the suggestions coming, guys. I'm glad to see you're enjoying it! =) The next level presents an interesting quandary...you need to get Berserker at the end to reach the flag, and Elsewhere has a nice shortcut with Red Stealth (whose helmet can be found just past the hole at the beginning of that level). Hmm... -Josh
but then you take my 75 perchance chance of winning, if we was to go one-on-one, and then add 66 and two-thirds ch...percents...i got a 141 and two-thirds chance of winning at sacrifice
Former player
Joined: 3/13/2004
Posts: 706
Location: Elyria/Oberlin, OH
Well, actually, it turns out that getting Red Stealth in Elsewhere costs you time. I've gotta stay true to my word of picking paths based on their lengths alone, so I may have to take Berserker...time to test out that flag! -Josh
but then you take my 75 perchance chance of winning, if we was to go one-on-one, and then add 66 and two-thirds ch...percents...i got a 141 and two-thirds chance of winning at sacrifice
Former player
Joined: 5/31/2004
Posts: 375
Well... You need Berzerker to get through Crystal Crags I, so you might be better off grabbing it in HotW2 even if you do take the Elsewhere. Oh, and I just tested it out and found you can go through the elsewhere from CC1 without taking the Iron Knight, by jumping from a hidden passage on the top left.
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