Yet another warp run for SMB2u. The strategy for the entire run is pretty much the same as Phil. I took different paths just so everyone could actually see that I was doing something different. This movie was VERY hard to make. Phil did an excellent job manipulating the game to do what he wanted. I went through and found frames I didn't think where there. I spent a very long time on this run. I hope that if I am beaten, that it's not by the number of frames I was able to find, hehe. Anyway, here's the rundown:
1-1: -0[0.000s] - unless someone can beat it faster then 2 or 3 frames, birdo will shoot the egg at teh same time within a few frames.
1-2: -6[0.100s] - I found some very mysterious frames, 4 came from teh carpet ride. I tried for a VERY long time to get this one...the other two were mysteriously from birdo.
1-3: -0[0.000s] - Nothing new here.
4-1: -0[0.000s] - Nothing new here.
4-2: -0[0.000s] - Nothing new here.
6-1: -5[0.083s] - Most of these frames were from the sand digging area. How I managed to squeeze out these guys...I thought that sand area was perfect when I first started.
6-2: -0[0.000s] - Nothing new here.
6-3: -0[0.000s] - Nothing new here.
7-1: -5[0.083s] - I saved a few frames on the ladder glitching part.
7-2: -3[0.050s] - I managed to gain one pixel, and when going for the birdo with the key, I manage to start my forward momentum 2 frames faster. I also saved two frames on the last bird head thing, but when I finished wart I was knocked down a frame.
All in all I saved 19 frames, or 0.317s. This time save was also just enough to make the submission time round down instead of rounding up like Phils'. (previous run is 07:54 and the new one is 07:53)
NesVideoAgent: Hi! I am a robot. I took a few screenshots
of this movie and placed them here.
Here goes!
But my point is, How can a movie be entertaining if it doesn't add anything really "New". If it LOOKS like the previous movie, how can that be considered entertainment. No doubt, 19 frames is a great improvement, but that isn't the question.
The problem is, when there exist no new tricks anymore. Should not the fastest movie published? Or the first who found all different tricks which can be shown in a TAS?
I think the fastest, when it is as entertainment as the old ones. Do you think when a movie show all different tricks it should published and never ever obsoleted? Then this site were full from movies which show many tricks, but have a longer time then other which rejected in the workbench. This site would never again publish the fastest movies, only movies which show all know tricks in the game.
Was the first movie from SleepZ entertainment for you? If yes, why is a faster one not as entertainment as SleepZ TAS when it show the same tricks? Only because it show nothing new? So when you would watch again SleepZ movie it is not entertainment anymore for you and you would vote a second time no too? When SleepZ would do a faster one which show nothing new you would vote no?
I know an old Super Mario Bros movie, which was the most entertainment one for me. It show many different tricks which I never hear or see before. But it goes not for Speed. Some Stages were finished with a timer which stand at 0. This is already obsoleted, but it contain tricks and glitches which are missing in the new faster ones. Should it stay forever on this site, because it show all different known tricks?
Sure for everyone its different what he thinks and love. But I think as fast as possible is most the best choice. Only when it is possible to make it more entertainment and this was not done, then vote no. But when someone try his best and make it entertainment with all known tricks at this time I would vote everytime yes.
And this was done here. A faster movie, which show all known tricks at this time.
Last TAS finished: Final Fantasy Adventure (4.0 Warp Glitch Run)
WIP in the moment: Tail Gator (GB)
Matty
Joined: 5/1/2004
Posts: 4096
Location: Rio, Brazil
All runs are improveable. So it would be really easy to take one of the many run on the site and improve it by 10 frames.
The movie must be watched whithout frame count and be decided if it's better than current movie, or not. If it looks the same, then the <0.1% total time difference is insignificant.
Emulator Coder, Site Developer, Site Owner, Expert player
(3574)
Joined: 11/3/2004
Posts: 4754
Location: Tennessee
FODA wrote:
All runs are improveable. So it would be really easy to take one of the many run on the site and improve it by 10 frames.
really? then make a smb movie 10 frames faster, or doneky kong, or monopoly.
not all runs are improvable by some frames and the ones that are eventually won't if people keep trying. There is a limit; one that will never be reached if competition on this level isn't welcomed.
Imo, the Question should be " In your opinion, does this movie achieve its goal accurately?" Because people may vote NO at "Did you like watching this movie?" question because they think the game itself is boring. Imo, all games should be accepted even if they are boring. But well, I am not owning the site.
But my point is, How can a movie be entertaining if it doesn't add anything really "New". If it LOOKS like the previous movie, how can that be considered entertainment. No doubt, 19 frames is a great improvement, but that isn't the question.
Huh? Of course that's the question. Maybe not the question asked in the poll, but I think you're putting too much significance on that one instead of on the site itself, the stated goals, and the way these things have been handled ever since.
FODA wrote:
All runs are improveable. So it would be really easy to take one of the many run on the site and improve it by 10 frames.
No, that's not true. If a current movie has X frames, then it can obviously be improved at most X times (in reality, the amount of times it can be improved will be much lower, but an upper bound is sufficient to show that you're not right).
The movie must be watched whithout frame count and be decided if it's better than current movie, or not. If it looks the same, then the <0.1% total time difference is insignificant.
Also not true. Whether a certain gain (given either in absolute or relative terms) is significant - or, rather, *how* significant it is - cannot be determined without looking at the history for the game in question. The closer to the theoretical limit you get, the more significant even a small improvement would be.
You cannot say "the improvement is not significant because it's only X frames" - that's like saying "the improvement of the 100 metres world record is not significant because it's just 0.01 seconds".
This game is like the first super mario brothers now...even If I had found small frames adding up to an entire second this movie would not look any different. If a new author somehow manages to beat the first SMB by a single frame, aren't we going to be intrigued as to how anyone could possibly do that? But I guess it's to be expected that some people don't care for this kind of improvement. I have to agree though with someone, though I can't find them now...if we're all going to get rejected for making small improvements, how will a game ever become perfect? If we had kept Sleepz version (which is still very good) I would have come to 51 frames and that's almost a second, would we still be having this argument?
I understand the work and effort the previous authors have put into their movies. I also put this kind of effort into the movie and I was able to do a little better, as Phil was able to do a little better then Sleepz. My movie is also on the board for someone else to improve if they can. If my time is broken, I honestly hope that with no new tricks that there isn't 19 more frames.
Imo, the Question should be " In your opinion, does this movie achieve its goal accurately?" Because people may vote NO at "Did you like watching this movie?" question because they think the game itself is boring. Imo, all games should be accepted even if they are boring. But well, I am not owning the site.
That actually sounds good to me. But I admit that most people wouldn't like to host a bunch of movies that nobody wants to watch. Maybe the question should also include whether the goal is a worthy one.
put yourself in my rocketpack if that poochie is one outrageous dude
So I vote yes, but I have still one question:
The Bird head Boss, the one in 7.2 infront of the last Boss. Why all always use the second stone, to defeat him? When Toad carry an item he is faster, so would it not save time, when he carry the first stone and use this as item to defeat the Bird head? He can walk faster from this point to the head.
Or takes the Boss so long, till he wake up that it is not important, which stone Toad pick up?
I tested this, I do believe it's because when you pick up the first one, you have to stop to get over the second one
I think that this site, whether it wants to be or not, is expected to show the state-of-the-art in speedrunning. So I think the faster movie should be published, unless it somehow is obviously lacking in quality.
That said, I think a short waiting period is OK--but only as long as it's short. I'm really excited to see a new run of SMB2 (even if it looks the same!), but I guess I'll have to download the ROM to watch this now--I'm not the only one, I'm sure, who'd like to see an avi of this as soon as possible.
Joined: 3/9/2004
Posts: 4588
Location: In his lab studying psychology to find new ways to torture TASers and forumers
DonamerDragon wrote:
This game is like the first super mario brothers now...even If I had found small frames adding up to an entire second this movie would not look any different.
I don't think so.
I think not all of the tricks have been exhausted yet. Quite a few glitches were never tried, and a few areas can use some more original thinking.
Although it may never happen, I think there is the possibility someone will come up with a way to save a second or two, and that will happen by slightly modifying some routes and glitch usage.
Warning: Opinions expressed by Nach or others in this post do not necessarily reflect the views, opinions, or position of Nach himself on the matter(s) being discussed therein.
This game is like the first super mario brothers now...even If I had found small frames adding up to an entire second this movie would not look any different.
I don't think so.
I think not all of the tricks have been exhausted yet. Quite a few glitches were never tried, and a few areas can use some more original thinking.
Although it may never happen, I think there is the possibility someone will come up with a way to save a second or two, and that will happen by slightly modifying some routes and glitch usage.
That would be so awesome. I would love to see that.
Joined: 5/1/2004
Posts: 4096
Location: Rio, Brazil
The hole thing i meant is that small improvements like this that doesn't add anything visually new to the run shouldn't be interesting at the moment for this site. I think there are higher priorities than taking the time to encode these insignificant improvements.
The hole thing i meant is that small improvements like this that doesn't add anything visually new to the run shouldn't be interesting at the moment for this site. I think there are higher priorities than taking the time to encode these insignificant improvements.
That's something I like about the proposed "grace period" that'd allow others to come up with even better movies (or at least start to work on them) before a movie is published - if this was done for all new submissions now, there'd be a while where no newly-submitted movie would be published, which would allow for the current backlog of submissions to be decided upon and (if they're accepted) published. :)
Two birds killed with one stone.
The hole thing i meant is that small improvements like this that doesn't add anything visually new to the run shouldn't be interesting at the moment for this site. I think there are higher priorities than taking the time to encode these insignificant improvements.
Yeah...I guess there are some things I missed. That's one of them. I don't mind holding on the submission if that's what it means....I guess I got a little upset.
But my point is, How can a movie be entertaining if it doesn't add anything really "New". If it LOOKS like the previous movie, how can that be considered entertainment. No doubt, 19 frames is a great improvement, but that isn't the question.
I don't follow that logic at all. If the first one was entertaining, and the second one looks the same, wouldn't the second one also be entertaining? Publish the second one.
Oh, it's not entertaining because it isn't different from the old one? Okay. So what about the people who haven't seen either one? Two movies look the same but one is faster. Which one will we publish for them? The second one.
We're supposed to be showing the limits of what can be done. If it's true that they look the same, show the one that comes closer to the limit. I don't understand why we would do anything else.
Oh, and I completely agree with schneelocke that the waiting period should be to see if anyone is going to make a run that would immediately obsolete the submission, not out of some "entitlement" on the part of the previous publisher. I would be very disappointed if that was the real reason for waiting periods.
TASing or playing back a DOS game? Make sure your files match the archive at RGB Classic Games.
Oh, it's not entertaining because it isn't different from the old one? Okay. So what about the people who haven't seen either one? Two movies look the same but one is faster. Which one will we publish for them? The second one.
This is exactly what I'm thinking. Also someone with good eyes can notice a difference in carpet riding.
Well, I find some flaws but I was expecting to use some tricks that no one have tried before. I am currently testing. I don't promise that it will be done soon. Testing things requires hours of work. I've passed many days testing things at 1-3, 2-1 and 2-2 when Donamer said that he did improved 1-2.
Today, I've tested many things at 1-1 but all failed :(
I will probably be faster than Donamer but don't expect much improvements, especially if I can't find a new trick that can work correctly.
Well, I find some flaws but I was expecting to use some tricks that no one have tried before. I am currently testing. I don't promise that it will be done soon. Testing things requires hours of work. I've passed many days testing things at 1-3, 2-1 and 2-2 when Donamer said that he did improved 1-2.
Today, I've tested many things at 1-1 but all failed :(
I will probably be faster than Donamer but don't expect much improvements, especially if I can't find a new trick that can work correctly.
Good luck dude, I know you can do it. I guess I aim to breed perfection. ;)
You will beat him? Does this mean you know this submission has some flaws?
I hope there are no flaws, I was testing things down to the pixel to see if it would be faster. I also didn't see any way to improve the levels where forward movement was the main thing. I guess we will see.
Joined: 4/16/2004
Posts: 1276
Location: Uppsala, Sweden
I watched the dual avi that DeHacked encoded. Anyway, I'm on the side that thinks that this frame hunt has gone way too far, so I don't know what to think about this run. Sure, it's cool and all that it was improvable but to me it looked pretty much like the same run.
When I first got into this community it was about entertainment but now it's pure speed that is important it seems. I'm not really fond of how it has turned but that's another story and from what I've seen in this thread most of the arguments have already been brought up.
I don't know if I'll even vote but if so I'll probably vote "meh". It's faster, great, but it's the same run to me and it didn't add any new entertainment. Sorry but good job Donamer.
I watched the dual avi that DeHacked encoded. Anyway, I'm on the side that thinks that this frame hunt has gone way too far, so I don't know what to think about this run. Sure, it's cool and all that it was improvable but to me it looked pretty much like the same run.
When I first got into this community it was about entertainment but now it's pure speed that is important it seems. I'm not really fond of how it has turned but that's another story and from what I've seen in this thread most of the arguments have already been brought up.
I don't know if I'll even vote but if so I'll probably vote "meh". It's faster, great, but it's the same run to me and it didn't add any new entertainment. Sorry but good job Donamer.
I have to agree that I like the numbers as well as entertainment, I always thought we were going for the fastest while also being entertaining.
