Joined: 3/13/2004
Posts: 1118
Location: Kansai, JAPAN
Highness wrote:
And Boco.. About "cheating". If that would be cheating, than most of everything here would be. But thats another discussion. I thought this site showed movies to entertain, not to do stuff humanly possible. I also thought we exploited the limmits of the actual console games. Hardly no movie on this site could be replayed by a human on a regular console right? There for I don't see it as cheating.
Let's be fair. Boco didn't say "cheating," she said "fair." Much like use of controller 2 to bend/break the rules of Mega Man 3, these Zelda 2 tricks were deemed inappropriate for movie making a long time ago.
I suppose there might be an audience for a superglitched Zelda 2 run, which would be very quick, but I think such a movie would be viewed as independent from the established one.
[EDIT] OK, fuwafuwa said "cheating" but the explanation was a good one.
It's my opinion that this glitchy run would look very cool, although I don't think it'll be very entertaining if there's no "non-super-glitch" run.
Oh, and in order to "post" movies on the forum you have no choice but to upload to another server and give a link. However, if you don't know of any free webhosting sites, I'd be willing to host .fmv and .fcm files for you. Just PM me to get my e-mail address (assuming you can e-mail them to me).
By the way, I couldn't help but play around with it a bit more...
http://www.kraftfam.org/~erk/nesvideos/zelda2-example.zip
Although I've got to stop playing around with it now. I don't want to work around the tremendous overhead required to do one of these runs...
And Boco.. About "cheating". If that would be cheating, than most of everything here would be. But thats another discussion. I thought this site showed movies to entertain, not to do stuff humanly possible. I also thought we exploited the limmits of the actual console games. Hardly no movie on this site could be replayed by a human on a regular console right? There for I don't see it as cheating.
Correct, but I thought that part of the point of these videos was that everything in them could theoretically be replicated on an unmodified NES (Even if most of the moves require beyond-human precision [Which they do; I've tried most of the Battletoads level 9 tricks...besides going through the spikes, most of that level seems to be humanly impossible to replicate on a console] , they're still theoretically possible). Since there's no way to simultaneously hit two directions at once on an unmodified control pad/joystick....
Getting back to the topic, though, I too would like to see a version of this done for the American Zelda 2, using perhaps FCEU.
Note that I don't know the first thing about making such videos myself, nor would I have the patience for it if I did. :)
Emptyeye.com- Come for the music, stay for the blog.
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if you discount pressing left+right at the same time because the controller cant do it then what about the rapid fire is some of these movies. even if a human could theoretically push the button that fast i done the controller could respond that quickly
i think these glitches dont violate more rules than the existing speed runs.
@Gigafrost - Woha! Now thats what I'm talking about. Looks really cool. Wish that someone could put together a complete run like that. Woulden't take long to finish the game with it.
Joined: 3/13/2004
Posts: 1118
Location: Kansai, JAPAN
OK, having seen the glitches at work I think I want to see a superglitched run of this game. However, I just want to say again that it should not replace the unglitched one.
To delve horribly off-topic, the difference between slow-down, frame-by-frame advance, saves and the "broken controller" feature is this:
the 'regular' exploits (frame-by-frame, savestates, slow-down) work within the game's limitations. by advancing a single frame you can do all sorts of odd things (walking through enemies, jumping higher than allowed, not taking damage, etc) but you're just exploiting coding flaws. every feat performed by frame advances can be done legitimately on a regular nintendo with a regular controller.. in fact, i think many of us have DONE at least some of the flaws in some of the videos on a regular system. For the sake of "perfecting" a movie, the usage of tools such as slowdown really is inconsequential.
However, using the L/R glitch is significantly more problematic, as it exploits a flaw beyond the game itself -- it exploits a flaw in the controller.
It's not "cheating" like a game genie code, as it's not changing the game's values, but it's providing input that the NES never intended to accept. It's an oversight in coding, you might argue, but physically the controller (under normal working conditions) was unable to press two opposing directions simultaneously.. only when the controller was faulty did it become possible to press L/R simultaneously. That's why I don't like it.
I also don't like seeing the graphics glitch like they do when it's used. ;p
Therefore I wonder why some of the techniques in Wrath of the Black Manta *require* to press opposing directions simultaneously. And I even could do it with a regular NES controller and a console that were installed in a shop for demonstration (> 10 years ago, of course).
I have discovered another use for the L+R glitch: wall climbing. Here's the outline:
-Using L+R warps you fast enough to place you within a wall.
-Manipulate it so that places you in the wall so you can get out (as far out as possible)
-While walking out of the block, jump for 1 frame the latest you can
-Then press L+R for 1 frame (I don't recall if you need to jump this frame or not)
-You will be moved up a single block and you should be able to walk out of it as well.
-Walk left and repeat
I think it takes roughly 10 frames per block although I'm not entirely sure. I haven't even prepared a suitable demo file... ^.^;;
Anywho, make of this what y'all want. :)
Is the glitch fast enough to warp you through locked doors? That combined with the wall climb would almost result in a non-Fairy run...o_O
There's still those long lava pits in levels 6 and 7, though...I can see the LR glitch probably warping you through the walls over the level 7 pit, but the one in level 6 has no such luxury... :/
...hmm...now that I think about it, this might get rid of the need for Jump as well...*imagines a god-like superglitched run ending with only Reflect and Thunder*
Is the glitch fast enough to warp you through locked doors? That combined with the wall climb would almost result in a non-Fairy run...o_O
There's still those long lava pits in levels 6 and 7, though...I can see the LR glitch probably warping you through the walls over the level 7 pit, but the one in level 6 has no such luxury... :/
I would think the bigger problem in Level 6 would be that, as I recall, you had to fall down a pit, then QUICKLY cast Fairy or you'd fall down another pit. I couldbe wrong about this. It looked something like:
Where you fell from (1), and had to cast Fairy to make it over to (2) before you fell down (3). Note that I don't know if there's potentially a way to make it over to (2) without Fairy, nor do I remember what was even over there.
Now that I think about it further, I remember the lava pit you're talking about.
And what was the requirement for getting Thunder? Just getting all 8 Magic Containers?
Emptyeye.com- Come for the music, stay for the blog.
>Therefore I wonder why some of the techniques in Wrath of the Black Manta *require* to press opposing directions simultaneously.
I don't think this is correct, but I have no possibility to check it right now. From what I remember pressing one direction was enough, but the graphics in the start menu hightlighted both left and right on the D-pad.
I was able to view it fine, although I haven't a clue what my version of Famtasia is (heck, I was suprised I didn't have a DiskDude! version of Zelda 2...)
I'm playing around with the glitch a lot. I've got ideas how to handle all the parts where fairy is normally required and I'm going to attempt to skip fairy altogether. If it doesn't pan out, I'll let y'all know.
Meanwhile, the "difficult" parts...
Great Palace - I believe there's a route that avoids having to use fairy...I was reading one of the Gamefaqs walkthroughs and one of them didn't mention fairy at all.
Palace 6 - I think it might be possible to jump over the pit there. There's a lot of enemies to dodge, but perhaps with the jump and some good L+R timing it'd be possible to jump the pit.
As for the problem outlined by Emptyeye, that actually should be pretty easy since the L+R glitch allows you to accelerate vertically incredibly fast.
But really, a no-fairy run would be quite cool. :D
Emulator Coder, Site Developer, Site Owner, Expert player
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what about the jump spell. a no jump, no fairy run would be incredible. not to mention the vast amounts of time saved by not getting the fairy water and the trophy. what about the iron glove? could all the parts that require it be glitched through?
Emulator Coder, Site Developer, Site Owner, Expert player
(3570)
Joined: 11/3/2004
Posts: 4754
Location: Tennessee
WOW, i just remembered something
back when i was experimenting using the fairy glitch. i considered the possiblility of using it to enter the great palace without beating the previous ones. using game genie and the mega jump code i found a place on top of the entrance that you can use the fairy glitch to enter the palace. the problem was that the only way to get to the top was with the mega-jump codes. CAN THIS GLITCH BE USED TO GET UP THERE? Maybe even with a combo of jump spell and glitches. if someone doesnt try this, I will tonight when i get a chance. If you can find a way up there, i'll try to explain how to get into the palace. This could cut the run down to a couple minlutes. you would just have to get the fairy spell, hammer, and flute, and go straight to the great palace!
Don't forget Thunder (and, thus, all the magic containers...don't you need to reach a certain magic level to use it, too?).
This would be awesome to see, though...for me, glitches are the ultimate highlight of any timeattack, and I love seeing them abused as much as possible. =)
-Josh
but then you take my 75 perchance chance of winning, if we was to go one-on-one, and then add 66 and two-thirds ch...percents...i got a 141 and two-thirds chance of winning at sacrifice
