Joined: 11/9/2007
Posts: 375
Location: Varberg, Sweden
Inzult wrote:
Anyone have any ideas as to how this works?
It actually seems like there goes a horizontal tunnel through the middle of the roof. Whenever your y-pixel is within the range 102-105 you can move freely inside the roof, as illustrated here:
Link to video
The tunneling is possible for any balcony with the height of 1 block (16px).
Language: lua
function draw()
CamXPos = memory.readbyteunsigned(0x072A) * 256 + memory.readbyteunsigned(0x072C);
XPos = memory.readbyteunsigned(0x003B) * 256 + memory.readbyteunsigned(0x004D);
YPos = memory.readbyteunsigned(0x0029);
x = XPos - CamXPos;
y = YPos;
CamXShift = CamXPos % 16 + 1;
-- draw grid of level blocks
for i = 0, 16 do
for j = 0, 16 do
gui.box(i * 16 - CamXShift, j * 16, i * 16 + 16 - CamXShift, j * 16 + 16, "#00000040", "#00000090");
end
end
-- draw Link collision points
-- vertical
gui.line(x + 12, y, x + 12, y + 32, "cyan");
gui.line(x + 20, y, x + 20, y + 32, "cyan");
-- horizontal
gui.line(x + 9, y + 6, x + 23, y + 6, "red");
gui.line(x + 9, y + 26, x + 23, y + 26, "red");
-- draw wall signs depending on current result of collision detection
wallFlags = memory.readbyte(0x00A7);
if (AND(wallFlags, 1) > 0) then
gui.box(245, 0, 255, 240, "gray");
end
if (AND(wallFlags, 2) > 0) then
gui.box(0, 0, 10, 240, "gray");
end
if (AND(wallFlags, 4) > 0) then
gui.box(0, 220, 255, 240, "gray");
end
if (AND(wallFlags, 8) > 0) then
gui.box(0, 0, 255, 20, "gray");
end
end
emu.registerbefore(draw);
Ahh, okay so the applications for this seem pretty limited. Besides maybe creatively getting through stacks of blocks or something. But most importantly, you can't clear the jump cave this way. Thanks, guys
I am working on an experiment with the FDS version, like leveling up and manipulation of enemy drops.
Also using speed boosts and the elevator glitch.
I may not submit the run, but I like to showcase what can be exploited.
http://dehacked.2y.net/microstorage.php/info/1314065010/zelda2j.fm2
This is a test run. It is possible to get attack to level 8 after completing Parapa Palace.
This would be a playaround TAS and it showcases different techniques.
Attack: 2, 3, 4, 6, 9, 12, 16, 24
FDS version has no enemies that drain your experience that the NES version has.
Feel free to watch with subtitles.
J vs U
Aches give 5 EXP vs 3 EXP
Dwellers give 5 EXP vs 3 EXP
Stalfos gives 20 EXP vs 30 EXP
For a playaround on the NES version doing all the palaces in order and getting all the items and spells, attack to level 4 right before Horsehead.
I'd watch it. In fact, I think an FDS run has a lot to offer compared with a US release run. They changed a lot.
Mind elaborating on some of the differences?
-Many enemies give different amounts of experience
-You gain levels at different levels of EXP and can choose any of the 3 stats to level up
-The game only "remembers" your lowest individual stat, so when you game over or use up&a to save and quit/continue, your sword, magic and life levels are set to whatever was your lowest
-Some enemies being vulnerable only to fire was added for the US release
-Some layouts and enemy placements differ, probably most notably in palace 5
-The fairy fall and scroll lock glitches do not work on the FDS version
-Carock behaves differently, but it's fairly minor
-There is no Gooma at the end of 5, in stead it is a souped up Helmethead; Horsehead also appears as a midboss
-Barba is different, but it probably won't show in a tas, since he dies so fast
-Elevators move slower and load times take longer :(
-The J version makes use of the FM Synth channel
Alright, this route isn't working out. I'd like to hear some ideas so I can refine it.
Goals:
-skip the bonus experience from crystals
-maximize sword levels where possible
-leave the leveling the same through death mountain as in the WIP above (2-2-1)
-walk into palace 4 with level 5 magic
-palace 1 can go anywhere in the route after an up&a
So far my best idea is:
-pick up 1000 xp in palace 2 (end at 2-4-1)
-pick up 1200 xp in palace 3 (end at 2-5-1) (this might be too much)
-do p4 (end at 4-5-1)
-do p1 (skip everything since there isn't enough xp here)
But that would necessitate slowing down a bit to get kills, since even sword 3 isn't quite strong enough to deliver enough hits to kill some enemies (doomknockers, blue stalfos) while walking past enemies at full speed.
Otherwise I could:
-pick up 300 xp in palace 1 (2-3-1)
-pick up 1200 xp in p2 (3-4-1) (this might be too much)
-pick up 1200 xp in palace 3 (end at 3-5-1) (this might be too much)
-do p4 (end at 4-5-1 still)
Or maybe there's something else that I'm not thinking of. At this point, whatever I think of doesn't quite work anyway, so I'm happy to listen to whatever.
Otherwise I could:
-pick up 300 xp in palace 1 (2-3-1)
-pick up 1200 xp in p2 (3-4-1) (this might be too much)
-pick up 1200 xp in palace 3 (end at 3-5-1) (this might be too much)
-do p4 (end at 4-5-1 still)
I can't get the xp for this just right. There is indeed 1200 xp available in palace 2, but I can only get the numbers to 1250, which means canceling an unneeded life level.
Here's the stuff available on the route, we need between (around) 1170 at least (I can pick up 30 xp from small stuff if needed) and don't want to get to 1250:
B STALFOS 70
O IK 50
O IK 50
B STALFOS 70
R IK 100
O IK 50
O IK 50
B STALFOS 70
B STALFOS 70
B STALFOS 70
HAMMER BRO 50
R IK 100
B STALFOS 70
HELMETHEAD 200
Delaying p1 and doing it at attack 4 though means I'll have to cancel an extra life level anyway, since horsehead is a forced 50 xp. I think no matter what it's probably worth pushing for early attack 3 here. 2 vs 3 isn't a big dealbreaker for helmethead or rebo, but there are a lot of enemies that take 8 hits at attack 3 in palace 3, which is just barely too much to kill them without slowing down at all. At attack 2, they take 11 hits which means I'd basically need to stop for every enemy. I'd just like to avoid the extra menu popup as well.
ok that is a lot of words, sorry
Otherwise I could:
-pick up 300 xp in palace 1 (2-3-1)
-pick up 1200 xp in p2 (3-4-1) (this might be too much)
-pick up 1200 xp in palace 3 (end at 3-5-1) (this might be too much)
-do p4 (end at 4-5-1 still)
This doesn't work. I can't get 300xp in 1 and fairy through 2 doors at magic 2.
At least I realized before I went and redid everything this time.
You could manipulate a 200 bag in Palace 1. I don't know if that's a real option though. The same will hold true for Palace 2 (the 3rd O IK and last R IK will be drops on the list above). I think it'll be the same for Palace 3 as well.
It's possible to make it through Palace 4 with magic 4, though it will require 2 deaths which will eat up quite a bit of time for a TAS. Stopping for a crystal level (or 2) would probably be faster in that case.
Actually, I measured that! Skipping the crystal in p2 is around about 10s faster than the published movie, would take longer for higher exp crystals. Taking a death is around about 6, assuming you can die very quickly upon entering a screen, so one crystal could possibly replace 2 deaths.
Taking deaths at all that don't also put you farther forward in the route probably won't be necessary though, there is enough xp to get to magic 5 in time. Making concessions on sword levels is annoying though. That also costs time. Just-- less time.
You're right about palace 1, though. I'm not thinking about it right. I don't need a red jar to drop there to refill magic, the magic level up takes care of that.
However, because the xp doesn't work out nicely (I wind up with too much in p1 and p2), taking magic 3 in palace 1 and sword 3 in p2 creates an extra level up screen for me to cancel overall. It also requires slowing down for 2 extra 200 pbags. This is ~1.5 seconds lost.
I'm not sure at the moment if this time would be covered on helmethead and inside p3 from better fights, or if delaying p1 for a sword 4 horsehead fight basically cancels all of that out and I'd just be giving up 1.5 seconds for no real advantage.
At this point, I might just need to make 2 movies to figure it out. It's a bit too complex for my brain to work out.
I just noticed you have the wrong amount of xp for the Blue Stalfos in Palace 2. They give 50, not 70. The blue armored ones give 70 (in palaces 3, 4, and 6).
Unless my math is wrong, your totals would look like this:
B Stalfos - 50 (50)
O IK - 50 (100)
O IK - 50 (150)
B Stalfos - 50 (200)
R IK - 100 (300)
Bag in ceiling drop room - 50 (350)
O IK - Drop (550)
O IK - 50 (600)
B Stalfos - 50 (650)
B Stalfos - 50 (700)
B Stalfos - 50 (750)
Hammer - 50 (800)
R IK - Drop (1000)
B Stalfos - 50 (1050)
HelmetHead - 200 (1250)
Skipping the last B Stalfos, or the 50 bag, will net you 1200 on the dot. Small enemies shouldn't make a difference for xp.
I just noticed you have the wrong amount of xp for the Blue Stalfos in Palace 2. They give 50, not 70. The blue armored ones give 70 (in palaces 3, 4, and 6).
I believe the helmeted ones are called Paltamu instead of Stalfos.
Just remember if you're working off those XP lists I made for All-Keys that they also won't account for when you turn into a Fairy to go through doors.
I was confused at first. Then the movie started. I'm sure there's lots of frames to come off the glitched TAS, and I encourage you to do it :)
I've posted a few known improvements over the past few pages, I'm sure you've seen them but feel free to use them if you intend to do a full improvement :)
By my count, you're 4 frames ahead. You gained 7 on the first overworld, lost 1 in the trophy cave, then lost 2 on the second overworld.
The mystery frame you "lost" in the very beginning is from your movie starting from power on, in stead of mine, which was from reset--my bad on the old version :v
The second overworld loss may be unavoidable, the enemy spawns are a harsh mistress. I'm uncertain what happened inside of trophy cave. Just a cursory glance says that you took too long to get your speed to -128 in there but I don't have time to go too deep.
Thanks for the information, Inzult.
I took your advice and manage to save 2 frames before picking up the doll, but I ended up exiting the cave on the same frame as before. I also got better subpixel position when picking up the doll.
Edit: Fixed it, but lost some subpixels.
Mm, thankfully subpixels are reset for every new room you go to, so you don't have to focus on them beyond how they affect the room you're in. IIRC each unit of speed makes you go 0.0625 pixels per frame?
So when you break the usual cap you max out at exactly 8 pixels per frame? That sounds about right. It's been a long time since I was thinking about l+r speeds :p
I can't think of anything big off the top of my head. I'm just trying to remember the route, and it might be possible to get the healer lady to spawn sooner than what I do in the published run, and it might be possible to get the downstab teacher guy to spawn a bit sooner too, but only a matter of frames in both cases. You've probably already explored this :)
If you've watched the video I posted a while back to get to 2 different locations using the same exit, you might want to see if something like that can apply on the last screen of glitch town or somewhere in fairy town though.
I'm away this week, I'll be able to take a look at things after I get home at the end of the week, just post whatever you've got on like Sunday or something.
Alright, this route isn't working out. I'd like to hear some ideas so I can refine it.
Goals:
-skip the bonus experience from crystals
-maximize sword levels where possible
-leave the leveling the same through death mountain as in the WIP above (2-2-1)
-walk into palace 4 with level 5 magic
-palace 1 can go anywhere in the route after an up&a
Watched the wip, looks nice so far! Damage boosts & intentional deaths obviously save a lot of time over the prior run. Noticed a couple other very tiny things that probably saved a couple frames (red jar in p2 for example is probably faster than in the old run). Also, the movie desynched for me before the helmethead fight, but that could be a one off accident since I havent replayed the fm2.
With regards to your defined goals there's a couple things that immediately come to mind:
-crystal exp skip; we proved last time that it's (much) faster to do the crystal before the item for both palaces 4 and 5, so you'll get two free levels there. 6 obviously is a waste to up+a due to the distance from the starting point, so there's the last "freebie"- though it might be best to try and get there with minimal exp and cancel whatever lvup your prompted with to not have to cancel the 50 exp life level up the moment you kill something in the last area.
-even sword levels barely qualify as an upgrade as far as tas-speed attacking goes. Shoot for level 3 or 5 to be optimal (7 likely not feasable due to crystal skipping, and magic 5 being a downright prerequisite for palaces 4 through 6)
-this is probably best to have a level 3 sword for helmethead
-yes, but also for much further down the line keep in mind you need either an intentional death or a red jar drop in the GP after the lava room but before thunderbird unless you have lv8 magic. Also, the room where you'll bounce on dragonheads might need a lower attack level to not kill them as you bounce up over the wall (then again, I forget how much HP they have)
-if exp permits getting to sword level 5 before you head to p6 and the endgame, save p1 for then.
more thoughts in a while
okay, after rewatching and rereading the thread, I _may_ have a level up path sorted out:
-On the hammer run, instead of dying intentionally when grabbing the hammer, kill the last daira and end with 1-3-1. You'll lose 8-12 seconds at a very rough estimate from the death shortcut not being used though.
-wont' have to wait for exp drops at p2 to comfortably reach 2-4-1, though helmethead will be a marginally longer fight since it's not a lv3 sword anymore
-p3 has just enough to reach 2-5-1
-use the crystal in p4 to reach 3-5-1
-" " p5 4-5-1
-do p1
-skip p6's level up since m6 is worthless and attack 5 will require something like 2200 exp pre-crystal. if memory serves, attack 6 is 4000, meaning you wont even have to cancel a level up after killing thunderbird.
-will need a magic refill in GP
As you mentioned deaths are about 6 secs, crystals about 10+ secs, the suggested tradeoff in the hammer room is theoretically equalled out this way, and you shouldn't have to go terribly out of your way to kill anything for exp (except maybe in p3)
Maybe this works?
