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Posted: 5/13/2007 8:59 AM
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Inzult
Active player (435)
Joined: 9/27/2004
Posts: 650
Location: Canada
NES TAS of 2021
Hey, just a bit of a bump to get some more minds on this. I have found a few improvements to the current run, and have a few route ideas. I have not yet found a way to get through palace 7 using just the fairy glitch and the healer glitch. But if it can be done, this would probably be the fastest way. Improvements to the current route: -walk down around Bagu's cabin after going through the jump cave in stead of up (this is probably faster because of fewer enemies to dodge) -enter the pot room after getting the hammer from the north or south (I forget) to be able to warp out the exit at the maze from the south (saves something like 6 or 8 steps) route ideas: Getting the glove from palace 2 while the healer glitch is active (maybe) faster than doing it normally. - get jump, (up&a?), do the healer glitch, warp to bagu, walk to palace 2, get the glove, use up&a, do the healer glitch, get downstab, do the hammer run, etc OR -get jump, (up&a?), do the healer glitch, get downstab, warp to bagu, walk to palace 2, get the glove, glitch out of palace, do the hammer run, etc -to answer: try to find a way to do the healer glitch it in Ruto: is it even possible? Spending the extra time walking on the overworld to Rauru might be made up by starting the glitch in a town you have to go to anyway. to test: -compare doing palace 7 with fairy/glove to downstab/glove (palace 7 is passable without downstab if you have fairy and the glove) -Route: partial healer glitch, hammer through the back enterance, up & a, (healer glitch, palace 2, medicine,)* fairy, hammer-warp (and pot-get) *whatever order is best I am also considering routes that include the raft, if doing palace 3 is quick with the healer glitch. I haven't tested yet. -jump, healer glitch, palace 3(glitch out), downstab get, palace 2, up&a, healer glitch, sail east -jump, healer glitch, downstab, palace 2, up&a, healer glitch, palace 3(glitch out), sail east Fairy/glove/raft on teh surface sounds too slow, so nevermind that. Here's my test movie for the fairy-only route. I'm not quite ready to give up on this route yet, but I'm out of ideas for now. Palace 7 in this wip is really unoptomized, so don't let the overall time fool you. If we can find a way through palace 7, then this would be the ideal roure, as far as I can tell. I would appreciate it if someone wanted to test some stuff too ;) (todo: don't get first jar I get: I got it to test another idea that didn't work out. Use the north or south exit for the jar that I need to get for the small timesaver) here's the route through palace 2 with the healer glitch I think. I forgot to watch it before I put it on my thumb drive to make sure :(
Posted: 5/13/2007 3:38 PM
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Rising_Tempest
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Joined: 4/27/2006
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Location: Eastern Canada
Inzult wrote:
Here's my test movie for the fairy-only route. I'm not quite ready to give up on this route yet, but I'm out of ideas for now. Palace 7 in this wip is really unoptomized, so don't let the overall time fool you. If we can find a way through palace 7, then this would be the ideal roure, as far as I can tell. I would appreciate it if someone wanted to test some stuff too ;) (todo: don't get first jar I get: I got it to test another idea that didn't work out. Use the north or south exit for the jar that I need to get for the small timesaver) here's the route through palace 2 with the healer glitch I think. I forgot to watch it before I put it on my thumb drive to make sure :(
I can confirm that is the palace two fcm. It's definately faster with the healer glitch active. As for the other one, if you tidy it up it should come out to a final time near the current glitch run considering how un-optimzed palace 7 is in this. Also, since you only need five magic containers to cast fairy, would you really need to get the one south of Zelda's palace? (just get the one next to the hammer cave, you need to warp there anyway it seems). Or if you do need it, activate fairy for the second one to forgo the "Hey, I got a thingy" animation of Link's. I have more ideas? When you go back to the Hammer cave to get the magic container and warp, I think it's faster to just walk through the graveyard and go over the long bridge, like you did at the start of the run. Or, is there no way to exit Mido town without warping to Bagu's Hut (or wherever),,, I remember reading somewhere that you only need to wait for the graphics to scroll over to learn sword techniques, not magic spells, so if this is right that's more seconds off the test run,,, Also, if it's possible to warp to Bagu's Hut from Rauru town, it may be faster to do this instead of walking when you get the Water of Life for the fairy spell. I'm not 100% on how the healer glitch works, so I'm not sure. If I get more ideas later Inz, I'll let you know, I need to go learn pianos for awhile now.
Posted: 5/13/2007 6:17 PM
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Inzult
Active player (435)
Joined: 9/27/2004
Posts: 650
Location: Canada
NES TAS of 2021
Rising Tempest wrote:
Also, since you only need five magic containers to cast fairy, would you really need to get the one south of Zelda's palace? (just get the one next to the hammer cave, you need to warp there anyway it seems). Or if you do need it, activate fairy for the second one to forgo the "Hey, I got a thingy" animation of Link's.
Getting that first jar is a mistake. I was testing using fairy in other places, and that jar was more convenient. I did think of using fairy to get the other jar, but I figured that I was going to hex out the first one (or redo the run, or maybe even use one of the other route ideas, I'm not sure) so I didn't bother.
Rising Tempest wrote:
When you go back to the Hammer cave to get the magic container and warp, I think it's faster to just walk through the graveyard and go over the long bridge, like you did at the start of the run. Or, is there no way to exit Mido town without warping to Bagu's Hut (or wherever),,, I remember reading somewhere that you only need to wait for the graphics to scroll over to learn sword techniques, not magic spells, so if this is right that's more seconds off the test run,,,
Taking the back enterance would totally be faster... but the problem is that when you go through the cave after the bridge with the healer glitch active, you start one of the rooms inside lava, so you just die. This is why I got the first jar. I was tryng to avoid this with fairy. It didn't work. I was wrong about the graphics scrolling part, I stupidly assumed you didn't have to wait for the spells, but it has to do with the healer glitch, not the graphics scrolling. You can exit a town without warping.
Rising Tempest wrote:
Also, if it's possible to warp to Bagu's Hut from Rauru town, it may be faster to do this instead of walking when you get the Water of Life for the fairy spell. I'm not 100% on how the healer glitch works, so I'm not sure.
Rauru warps you to the graveyard, Mido warps you to Bagu's hut. up&a resets the healer glitch, so walking is quicker. Strangely, though, when you up&a in palace 7, the glitch stays active... e: by the way, if you press left+right as a fairy, Link will slowly move diagonally left and up. This isn't really useful in most cicumstances, except that you can move into the top of the screen this way. This means you can do the falling glitch anywhere with an open ceiling. edit again: come to think of it, if you use the fairy glitch in a town, it should bring you to the same place as doing the healer glitch. It doesn't sound like it would be too useful in a run, the more ideas I consider, the better.
Posted: 5/15/2007 7:33 AM
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Rising_Tempest
Player (168)
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Holding left right and up while a fairy zips you to the top of the screen fairly quickly, but you still need some frames of only left and right near the top to get over the barrier and glitch fall to the room below. This might save a little time if the fairy route becomes feasable.
Posted: 6/27/2007 8:02 PM
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Inzult
Active player (435)
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NES TAS of 2021
Inzult wrote:
-get jump, (up&a), do the healer glitch, get downstab, warp to bagu, walk to palace 2, get the glove, glitch out of palace, do the hammer run, etc
This seems to be the best route. Never managed to get though palace 7 with only fairy. It is passible with fairy and the glove, though. I haven't done a highly optimized test of palace 7 with fairy&glove (and I probably won't at this point) but it doen't look promising simply because of how much slower the rest of the game is. One hangup with the quoted route is the overworld after palace 2. It is annoyingly difficult to manipulate enemies on the swamp, and the best I've done so far involves an overworld battle. Once I have a chance to sit down and iron that out, rest will be pretty automatic. If there's interest in a fairy + glove route, I'll make it later for fun, but I don't expect it to be publish worthy.
Posted: 3/7/2008 6:57 PM
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Inzult
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NES TAS of 2021
Here's the progress on the new Zelda 2 glitched run, stopping a bit before the hammer run and subsequent warp to east Hyrule. Since my desktop died an untimely death quite some time ago, my previous progress on the Zelda 2 glitched run was lost. I have recently been rebuilding it on my brother's laptop. Luckily, the bulk of the testing has already been done, so it's just a matter of executing. And since my last WIP was lost forever because I didn't give it to anyone, I'm posting this WIP. It is 34 frames behind where my notes from the lost WIP tell me it should be. But I temporarily inserted an overworld battle to save me (more) hours of searching for a way past. Since the town is where the routes synch back up, it is worth it to get there, so I can easily compare how I'm doing against the published run. As it stands, I am 1633 frames ahead of the published run at this point. I am very optimistic that this run will shave 30 seconds off that run. My notes indicate that it should be possible to exit the glove room 5 frames sooner, but I don't see where, and my notes are sketchy at best around this point in the game, because it's mixed in with the previous overworld. Those 5 frames are probably from the swamp before level 2, but I just don't see where they are, and if swamp 2 works well, it might not matter anyway, it might lead to better luck, and a faster overall time. Here's hoping. I'm going to rework the last stretch of the second pass through the swamp first, which hopefully covers the 34 missing frames. Unfortunately, the swamp is a horrific nightmare, and I will be lucky to retain my sanity while trying to tighten it. If I can't find a way through, I'll look back for the mystery 5 frames on swamp 1. It's possible that going even slower on swamp 1 will lead to a faster swamp 2, and be better overall, but I'm not in a position to test every possibility. Luckily, the actual dungeons are hex friendly, so I can use the same run through palace 2 no matter what I do to swamp 1. My only goal is to match what my notes tell me for arriving at the town, since that's where my notes get more exact. Anyway, about the WIP, I found 1 frame of savings in the basement where you get the Jump spell. The rest of the savings is from better route choices, and playing more of the game broken. I found a frame of savings in the basement where you get Downstab as well, but, that one frame forced me to lose something like 20 frames manipulating the overworld on the way to palace 2. So I get downstab the old way. The more I work on manipulating enemies on the swamp, the less sense it makes. If there's anywhere the run won't be fully optimized, it's that damn swamp. If anyone has any ideas about how to tackle it, or wants to take a crack at it themselves, I'm open to that... tl;dr just watch the WIP and tell me what you think
Posted: 3/21/2008 11:09 PM
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Inzult
Active player (435)
Joined: 9/27/2004
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NES TAS of 2021
I have matched and even surpassed the speed at which my lost WIP got the Handy Glove, but for some reason manipulating the swamp leaving palace 2 still did not go how my notes said it should. So I am taking the fastest overworld battle I have found, and I'm going to press on. I cannot find a way to manipulate it away. The reason I am posting this is to ask: is this acceptable? Consider the route and the precision of play is superior to the published run, with an overworld battle that I have in the past found a way to avoid (taking the battle loses ~28 frames to a known best time). I can't seem to duplicate that manipulation thanks to randomness that is beyond my understanding. The manipulation was almost as slow as taking the battle anyway. Thanks in advance for the input, guys.
Posted: 3/21/2008 11:26 PM
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adelikat
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Posted: 4/18/2008 11:56 AM
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MetalChurch
Joined: 12/27/2005
Posts: 45
Location: Beauce, Québec, Canada
Hi, I'm not 100% sure about this , but If I remember correctly, when I was a kid, I didn't know how to get into the 6th palace but I was able to get into the last one. So you don't need to kill all the bosses and put a crystal on every castle to get into the last palace. What you need to do is use the fairy spell (and maybe the shield/reflect spell) and pass throught the magnetic field(or whatever this is) and if you have enough life/heart , you will pass throught it. I don't know if this was discussed before, but I guess it will be faster.
Sorry, my english is really bad...
Posted: 4/18/2008 7:15 PM
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Inzult
Active player (435)
Joined: 9/27/2004
Posts: 650
Location: Canada
NES TAS of 2021
MetalChurch wrote:
What you need to do is use the fairy spell (and maybe the shield/reflect spell) and pass throught the magnetic field(or whatever this is) and if you have enough life/heart , you will pass throught it.
I've heard of this before. You can get some of the way into the barrier before you die, but you still can't make it. Here's an FCM Unless I'm not doing something right. In any case, I would be weary about using something that would let you skip every palace (except 2, 3, 4, and 5 to get items) in the full run, and it's probably slower than what's done in the glitched run. It is possible to use fairy in a town to do the same thing to the game the healer glitch does, also with the end effect of skipping all palaces except for Palace 2 (glove) and Palace 3 (raft).
Posted: 4/18/2008 11:11 PM
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caitsith2
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I gained unauthourized entrance to the great palace, using a fairy, and a tiny bit of left+right glitching. This means Palace 1 and 6 can be skipped outright. The glitch is easily doable realtime with a properly modified controller.
Posted: 4/19/2008 12:53 AM
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Twelvepack
Joined: 5/2/2006
Posts: 1020
Location: Boulder, CO
Using left+right will be slower then the method used in the glitched run, but I do wonder if there isnt some way of getting further then half way.
Has never colored a dinosaur.
Posted: 4/19/2008 2:03 AM
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Inzult
Active player (435)
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Location: Canada
NES TAS of 2021
The (I suppose self-imposed) line drawn in what glitches are okay in a full run forbid both left+right movement and the fairy glitch. Any room with an open celing, fairy, and the allowance of left+right can lead to the fairy glitch, which, yes, can skip the barrier. But I have no interest in making a "only uses left+right for a few frames and only uses the fairy glitch once" run. If you allow the fairy glitch (and disallow left+right) you can still glitch the game the same way the glitched run does by using fairy in the town where you learn reflect. Then all you really need to get is Jump, the Hammer, Downstab/Fairy, the Glove, the Raft, the 4 magic containers and the Thunder spell (since without left+right, you'd be forced to fight thunderbird). You can probably get away with not getting downstab, but I'm not sure if dying to refill your magic for fairy is slower than just getting it. You can then bypass the barrier by using the false left exit. If you were allowing left+right only while fairy, that'd cut out the raft. Unless you didn't allow going into the doors in crazytown, but that's a heck of a lot of arbitrary rules. edit: no, sorry, I'm lying. You need the flute (so you also need the boots) while allowing the fairy glitch, because you can't get thunder without left+right while the game is broken through glitching the town.
Posted: 12/11/2008 11:12 AM
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Inzult
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Well, I haven't talked about Zelda 2 in a while. Time to do that. Recently, I've been trying out crazy new ideas and what do you know? Some are working. Let's start with this little nugget: Youtube This began with an attempt to eliminate the JUMP spell. I was trying to find ways to get the game to let me into the room where we learn downstab. So I thought, well, why not push the screen scrolling glitch all the way, and try to fall onto the ledge with the door on it? Didn't work. Then it occured to me that it might be possible to make it to the final palace with the screen scrolling glitch pushed this far. And it is. And since it is, this not only could eliminate JUMP, but also downstab. And the handy glove. And the hammer. Getting the raft and getting the hammer are pretty comporable in terms of time, so this could feasibly cut out a lot of that normal gameplay people seem to dislike about Zelda 2. IF it is possible to fall to Dark Link's room and find solid ground. This is where you come in, guy who is smarter than me and knows about stuff about scripting. When Link falls off the bottom of the screen, there are small 'zones' that all point to different places. Like in palace 4, for example, when you fall down the far left of the hole, you appear on the far left in the next room. When you fall down the far right, you appear at the far right. And everywhere in between. Same rules are applying here, only Link is outside of the rooms to the right when he is spawned, and the zones are all pointing to lord only knows what. I think. If it is possible to create some sort of script that finds a path through the great palace, then it's worth refining the setup for this (there are roughly 3 routes that make sense, so it's easy enough for me to work that out). But I am no compu-whiz so I'd have to defer this aspect the run to someone else who can, uh, do it. So yeah. Anyone wanna make a Zelda 2 run? tl;dr does anyone who's smart at computers wanna help out If not, there are other routes that have occurred to me through screwing around with the game that require the much more reasonably testable left-scrolling glitch. I realized there's a way to warp back from Bagu's hut to Mido, which opens back up the possibility of using the raft in stead of the warp near the hammer. It's also possible that using the scrolling glitch even earlier to get the trophy/Jump spell could be faster than what's used in the published run. In any case, it's a lot of stuff to test, and using the falling glitch through the Great Palace seems like the best place to start.
Posted: 12/11/2008 3:15 PM
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dave_dfwm
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For now, would it be possible to try using death with this? After the beginning of the fall glitch, see if you can reach an enemy and have it kill you. That may start you in the 'normal' part of the screen with correct footing. If you can use this appropriately close to Dark Link, it may work.
Posted: 12/11/2008 4:44 PM
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Kirkq
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I'm going to have to agree with Inzult's youtube video description. "I don't even know any more."
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Posted: 12/12/2008 2:07 AM
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Inzult
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dave_dfwm wrote:
For now, would it be possible to try using death with this? After the beginning of the fall glitch, see if you can reach an enemy and have it kill you.
It's worth testing. If I had to guess, I'd say nothing of use happens, you'd respawn at the top of the screen outside the room as usual, but I've been wrong before. Of course, it'll take some doing. Getting enemies to appear before Link falls of the bottom of the screen will be tricky, and will probably require finding solid ground anyway. Maybe I can find some lava somewhere, but same thing, we'd need to find a way inside a room somewhere anyway. Now that I think about it, falling into Dark Link's room might not even be useful, since it's closed on the right and the top. Falling into Thunderbird's room might not be useful, as the right exit is gone... but who knows, maybe it's possible to fight Dark Link on the ceiling. Hmm... Well, I'll play around with it more. Edit: Oh, here's a brief FCM that should start you outside palace 7 with the falling glitch active if anyone wants to fall a lot.
Posted: 12/12/2008 3:34 PM
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dave_dfwm
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I messed around with your save state for a bit, and got to a spot where Link appears on the right side of the screen, falls slowly, sinks into some lava after getting hit by a flying skull, and dies. Unfortunately, I cannot move him while in this screen, and I get a game over. I'll see if I can replicate this while recording.
Posted: 12/12/2008 5:36 PM
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Kirkq
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I did some messing around as well. I got to a room where I'm stuck dying, and then I just demonstrated how to get to a bunch of rooms that aren't that interesting. The room with the elevator shaft where I'm stuck dying in the first video may be useful. I got tired of testing. http://dehacked.2y.net/microstorage.php/info/1967852583/Stuck%20Dying.fcm http://dehacked.2y.net/microstorage.php/info/635852407/Messing%20Around%20Falling.fcm The first video I get caught somehow behind an elevator shaft and die 3 times in a row. The second video is basically just me exploring a bunch of rooms for anyone curious. There is a room in the beginning of the video that has a skull in it that may be abusable. Nothing too productive overall. I did manage to clip into one block of a wall somehow at the end.
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Posted: 12/12/2008 10:34 PM
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DarkKobold
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Inzult wrote:
tl;dr does anyone who's smart at computers wanna help out
Wasn't quite tldr, but I am getting pretty good at Lua. Perhaps a script that just falls into DarkLink's room in various places would help? See if it is even possible?
Sage advice from a friend of Jim: So put your tinfoil hat back in the closet, open your eyes to the truth, and realize that the government is in fact causing austismal cancer with it's 9/11 fluoride vaccinations of your water supply.
Posted: 12/13/2008 5:57 AM
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Inzult
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NES TAS of 2021
Well, I've gotten link to spawn on solid ground coming in from the left in a couple of non-useful places, and gotten him to start on an elevator once in another non-useful place, so I am optimistic that this could happen in a useful place eventually.
DarkKobold wrote:
I am getting pretty good at Lua. Perhaps a script that just falls into DarkLink's room in various places would help? See if it is even possible?
I don't know thing one about Lua scripting. But as far as I'm concerned, anything that can test some aspect of this automagically is a good thing :) I can't think of any way to find a route there besides brute forcing it though...
Posted: 12/13/2008 9:04 PM
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DarkKobold
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Brute forcing an entire path is far, far more difficult than brute forcing a single room. You are essentially asking for an entire game to be bot'ed, which is an extremely difficult task.
Sage advice from a friend of Jim: So put your tinfoil hat back in the closet, open your eyes to the truth, and realize that the government is in fact causing austismal cancer with it's 9/11 fluoride vaccinations of your water supply.
Posted: 12/14/2008 11:14 AM
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Ver_Greeneyes
Joined: 4/2/2008
Posts: 103
Location: The Netherlands
How well are the game mechanics understood? From when you eventually landed it looked like a lot of memory corruption is involved - would it be possible to create a map of relevant areas along with locations of solid ground, i.e. for use in a C++ program? (would open up some other variants of brute forcing: backtracking and meet-in-the-middle) If the solid ground varies based on where you leave the previous room this (mapping them out) may not be feasible.
Posted: 12/14/2008 12:07 PM
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Inzult
Active player (435)
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Posts: 650
Location: Canada
NES TAS of 2021
DarkKobold wrote:
Brute forcing an entire path is far, far more difficult than brute forcing a single room. You are essentially asking for an entire game to be bot'ed, which is an extremely difficult task.
I understand the magnitude of the request. One could potentially poke some part of the memory to get Link to start in, say, Thunderbird's Room and test falling to Dark Link's room for the sake of whittling down what's impossible. I don't know how to do that either.
Ver Greeneyes wrote:
How well are the game mechanics understood? From when you eventually landed it looked like a lot of memory corruption is involved - would it be possible to create a map of relevant areas along with locations of solid ground, i.e. for use in a C++ program? (would open up some other variants of brute forcing: backtracking and meet-in-the-middle) If the solid ground varies based on where you leave the previous room this (mapping them out) may not be feasible.
I'll just leave this here - wiki Personally, I don't understand a damn thing about that.
Posted: 12/14/2008 12:51 PM
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Ver_Greeneyes
Joined: 4/2/2008
Posts: 103
Location: The Netherlands
Inzult wrote:
I'll just leave this here - wiki Personally, I don't understand a damn thing about that.
Thanks for the link; I get the feeling I need to understand how the scrolling glitch works, at the least. Is there a Zelda II glitch page? (I did a quick search but nothing came up.. wish you could search through topics)
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