JXQ
Experienced player (761)
Joined: 5/6/2005
Posts: 3132
Update! After a bit more trying in 2-P, I continued on without using the glitch. Thanks again to Kyrsimys and Nitsuja for trying it out for me; I guess if neither of you can get it, I can be pretty sure it's not possible :) I'm up to 3-A now. Notes: It is faster to swim in water than to repeatedly jump out of it (when the distance of swimming is long enough). I fight both hammer brothers here; this is because I need the hammer, and I need to enter one more level to make the bridge between 3-6 and 3-8 crossable. This is faster than dying at the hammer brothers, since I would have to get hit three times (and re-powerup later), and also gains time between levels, since there are no hammer brothers left to roam. I don't think I'll end up using that second star I got, though. I was able to get a flower card in 3-4 during an early attempt, but reducing lag throughout the level then made getting the flower card not possible, so I took my first mushroom card in 3-8 instead. I tried several ways to get up to speed in 3-9, the normal way is surprisingly faster than using the strange "backwards for a frame" tactic in this level. There's also a glitch used to save time. Hanzou, wow! I'll try it out later. I'm always amazed by how much the community learns as a whole about the little details of games. Thanks!
<Swordless> Go hug a tree, you vegetarian (I bet you really are one)
Emulator Coder, Skilled player (1310)
Joined: 12/21/2004
Posts: 2687
hanzou wrote:
I've made an IPS patch that separates out the extra wall so that maybe someone here could test this theory
Is it possible to also separate the ceiling blocks? I tried briefly and the behaviour was basically the same as before (although the wall's appearance had changed).
Former player
Joined: 4/16/2004
Posts: 1286
Location: Finland
World 3 looks pretty good. 3-8 was the only level where I kinda felt the flow of the run was disturbed because you dropped in the water and didn't jump, even though you swam only a small distance after it. It somehow really looked like a screw up to me. Another place in 3-8 where I was having doubts was when you grabbed and threw away the two white blocks. It seemed to me like it would've been faster to jump over them so you could've saved at least some of your speed instead of stopping completely. Might be just me though, I didn't do any testing. EDIT: Oh, and the glitch in 3-9 was awesome. It caught me by surprise.
Player (21)
Joined: 10/14/2005
Posts: 317
Well, the ceiling doesn't have any overlapping blocks so there's nothing to separate out. In case it might have something to do with the ceiling block type (e.g. the jagged rather than flat edge), here are two more test cases: smb3_pyramid_nojagged.ips smb3_pyramid_coin.ips
JXQ
Experienced player (761)
Joined: 5/6/2005
Posts: 3132
Kyrsimys wrote:
3-8 was the only level where I kinda felt the flow of the run was disturbed
With the ice blocks, I tried jumping them, but the room to jump is so narrow that Mario has to jump quite high to be able to keep any forward momentum, and ends up being slower. With the water, I forgot to test that, so I just redid it and it is four frames faster. This also propgated some nice randomness through to 3-9 and I gained four more frames there. (link is updated as well) Thanks for spotting that!
<Swordless> Go hug a tree, you vegetarian (I bet you really are one)
Emulator Coder, Skilled player (1310)
Joined: 12/21/2004
Posts: 2687
hanzou wrote:
Well, the ceiling doesn't have any overlapping blocks so there's nothing to separate out. In case it might have something to do with the ceiling block type (e.g. the jagged rather than flat edge), here are two more test cases
I tried the nojagged case, and that also didn't work, but I think it did make it clear why the trick doesn't work for that wall: that type of wall tile (the one leftover) acts as a weird "frictionless" surface which also prevents changes in ducking status while standing on it, which is why Mario can't stand up to get ejected to the right even if he does manage to get a temporay foothold in that wall.
JXQ
Experienced player (761)
Joined: 5/6/2005
Posts: 3132
Update! ... Kind of. Most of World 4 is now done. I found improvement in 4-2, by taking an ice block to run into the small plant instead of slowing down to fireball it, so from then on will be redone (that's why I stopped in the middle of 4-F2). It's probably for the better, because I was getting repeatedly screwed by the randomness with the hammer brothers. I want to be able to fight the one before 4-4, so I can use firepower, and I also was able to get a flower card on 4-6, but hammer brothers got in my way, so I had to wait for a mushroom card. Maybe on the redo, things will work out better for randomness. I may also use the musicbox I have here. World 5 isn't too congested with hammer brothers, and World 6 is so huge and multiple-path-having that I think the musicbox may benefit me the most here. Highlights: 4-4 turned out pretty well, although the Lakitu acted a little different than when I just randomly tested this strategy a while ago, so maybe I will gain a few more frames when I redo it. 4-6 has a lot of lag. I haven't tested against waiting for the plants to lower into the pipe (you can't fall between them because there are invisible blocks on the right side). 4-F2 may benefit from getting superspeed on the donut lift with the fire flower. Either way I need the flower because there isn't one on the airship (there are 2 leaves instead). I tested that strategy roughly; using a leaf vs. fire flower are just about the same speed (within 10 frames or so). However, the fire flower here will speed up the Boom-Boom battle, so it wins in this case. ----- Edit: Run redone, link updated. In 4-2, I have to turn to the left with the ice block or the fireball that gets the first plant out of the way will disappear. I performed a glitch at the end of the level that takes time because I end up waiting until that particular frame to get the card in order to manipulate the hammer brothers as needed and also because I need a mushroom card. Hammer brother fought earlier and with firepower (about 20 frames faster). 4-4 improved slightly by running off the edge instead of jumping, which for some reason saved 3 frames. Also got a flower card here. I tried three different techniques in 4-6: the original, glitching through a pipe, and what I ended up with. The bounce over the second pipe has invisible blocks, so I cannot move to the right any sooner than I do. 147 frames faster when entering the second fortress, which is also finished and improved slightly.
<Swordless> Go hug a tree, you vegetarian (I bet you really are one)
Skilled player (1827)
Joined: 4/20/2005
Posts: 2161
Location: Norrköping, Sweden
Wow, your world 4 looked really cool. Lots of "walking through blocks"-glitches, I like that! :) You can count me in to the crowd who can't wait to see this finished. I have a question about the zip-file: Would it be possible for you to include a savestate in the zip-file from where you previous WIP ended? This way we who have watched the previous WIP don't need to fastforward to the new part.
JXQ
Experienced player (761)
Joined: 5/6/2005
Posts: 3132
World 5 complete up to airship (save file included beginning at World 5) The hammer brothers in the lower section of the world are a pain. If I want to go through 5-F and avoid them, one of them must move past World 5-3, which is an extra movement I don't need. So I used one of my musicboxes here. Several of the levels have a small delay at the end to make the hammer brothers move as little as possible. In 5-F, I was able to pull off a nice trick on Boom-Boom. In 5-T(ower), I use a through-the-wall trick at the beginning, but it's tough to spot at full speed unless you're looking for it. I tried bypassing the vine at the top, but Mario's top jump is just short of reaching that first cloud. After 5-5 is completed, a bonus sound can be heard on the map - this is because one of the hammer brothers on the ground was turned into a treasure ship. It doesn't cost time to do so (as long as you don't end up going on it). I wasn't able to get the one in the clouds to transform instead, so hopefully in World 6 I'll have another opportunity. And I found a place to use the extra star I had to pick up! Using a star in 5-7 allows for super speed much earlier (since I don't have a fire flower at the beginning), and saves almost 3 seconds in the level. I get the fire flower here to speed up the Boom-Boom fight in the next level. I also just realized that the save file I included starts at 5-1, whereas my previous ended before World 4's airship. So, if you want to watch that boring-ass level (slow-moving airship with nothing but burners), just fast forward to it :) One note about that level is that I discovered that I don't need to attain super speed before entering the boss chamber to get the highest jump in the center of the room - Mario can only get this extra height when jumping to the sides of the room because there isn't enough space to build up the speed necessary for the highest jump.
<Swordless> Go hug a tree, you vegetarian (I bet you really are one)
JXQ
Experienced player (761)
Joined: 5/6/2005
Posts: 3132
World 6 complete One thing I completely forgot to test was getting the starman toward the end of 6-F and killing Boom-Boom with it. Thus, this might be redone (grrr)... 6-F: I tested going through the wall, but it is slower than just completing the level normally. 6-5: Doing this level the standard way is slower. I even tried getting a leaf on the hammer brothers before the level, and it still was behind by around 2 seconds, even after keeping the leaf for the next level.
<Swordless> Go hug a tree, you vegetarian (I bet you really are one)
Player (206)
Joined: 2/18/2005
Posts: 1451
Looks great, JXQ. I first thought it was a desync after you died 2 times in world 2 but the strategy turned out to be much faster. You beat all this hard levels with such a easiness and speed that I was surprised all the way. I honestly haven't seen any errors and look forward to see the last 2 worlds. Keep it up!
See my perfect 100% movie-walkthroughs of the best RPG games on http://www.freewebs.com/saturnsmovies/index.htm Current TAS project (with new videos): Super Metroid Redesign, any% speedrun
Joined: 4/23/2004
Posts: 150
Great innovative video. I was wondering though.. Was there any particular reason for obtaining a second flower card in World 5? It looked like you slowed down slightly to get it. Andreas
JXQ
Experienced player (761)
Joined: 5/6/2005
Posts: 3132
Thanks guys! The delays in many of the levels are to manipulate hammer brothers (with the exception of 3-8 or 3-9). Some cases take 10+ frames of waiting to make the hammer brothers move as little as possible. Getting a different card is just an added bonus :) World 6 is going much better the second time around; I should have an update later today.
<Swordless> Go hug a tree, you vegetarian (I bet you really are one)
Joined: 5/24/2004
Posts: 262
Lol @ your avatar too :) I just found this thread and will enjoy watching this TAS WIP when I get home this evening.
nesrocks
He/Him
Player (246)
Joined: 5/1/2004
Posts: 4096
Location: Rio, Brazil
It looks incredible, i'm so glad this movie doesn't ever get boring! always something new happens. This game deserves such an awesome run, great job there jxq!
JXQ
Experienced player (761)
Joined: 5/6/2005
Posts: 3132
World 6 redone. Gained 147 frames in 6-F by using the starman on Boom-Boom. Gained 6 frames in 6-5 by finding a better route (also looks cooler). Gained 2 frames on the Hammer Brother battle (stomping ends up working faster than the tail attack) Gained 6 frames on 6-F2 by running more precisely Gained 86 frames on 6-8 by getting running speed much earlier Gained 14 frames on 6-F3 from a better Boom-Boom battle. Gained 276 frames altogether compared to v1 of World 6. There's one other surprise you'll have to watch to see :) Andypro, glad you like the avatar, although I can't take credit for thinking of it. Progressive Boink is where I saw it - check the link for a humorous look at Doki Doki Panic / SMB2. And thanks to everyone for all the encouragement! I hope to finish this within a week or so. Edit: The run also works with PRG0 still, which makes me happy!
<Swordless> Go hug a tree, you vegetarian (I bet you really are one)
Joined: 4/29/2005
Posts: 1212
Nice progress so far. Going to have a bit of trouble with World 7 I think, since unless you have the cloud, you have a LOT of levels in your way. The longest of which I believe is the Water Level. I will be quite interested to see what other tricks you have up your sleeve. :3
Player (206)
Joined: 5/29/2004
Posts: 5712
JXQ wrote:
Andypro, glad you like the avatar, although I can't take credit for thinking of it. Progressive Boink is where I saw it - check the link for a humorous look at Doki Doki Panic / SMB2.
Oh yeah, the site used to be Pop Rocks and Coke!
put yourself in my rocketpack if that poochie is one outrageous dude
JXQ
Experienced player (761)
Joined: 5/6/2005
Posts: 3132
World 7 nearly complete. (Included save file now starts at World 7)
Kitsune wrote:
I will be quite interested to see what other tricks you have up your sleeve. :3
World 7 probably ends up being one of the shortest worlds. There are a lot of tricks to take advantage of. It may be possible to walljump over 7-6 the same way I did in 6-9, so I'll test that before moving on. Just wanted to get in an update since I seem to post them daily. Also, a desync occured after 7-2 using PRG0, so I will be sticking with PRG1 now.
<Swordless> Go hug a tree, you vegetarian (I bet you really are one)
JXQ
Experienced player (761)
Joined: 5/6/2005
Posts: 3132
World 7 complete This will be the last posted WIP, as World 8 is all that's left, and we've all seen Genisto destroy it. The only difference is that I have a cloud in the inventory to use on 8-F. I've played the first tank level, and it's pretty disappointing how few 1-ups I got (since I have firepower instead of raccoon), but at least it will be a little break from the norm, I suppose. Hoping to have this done within a couple days.
<Swordless> Go hug a tree, you vegetarian (I bet you really are one)
Joined: 11/22/2004
Posts: 1468
Location: Rotterdam, The Netherlands
Desyncs at the world 7 ship, right before you fight those two crewsmen!
Player (224)
Joined: 10/17/2005
Posts: 399
Plays fine for me.
<adelikat> I've been quoted with worse
Joined: 11/11/2004
Posts: 400
Location: ::1
Bablo wrote:
Plays fine for me.
Same here. Which FCEU are you using, Omega?
Emulator Coder, Skilled player (1310)
Joined: 12/21/2004
Posts: 2687
Omega wrote:
Desyncs at the world 7 ship, right before you fight those two crewsmen!
Which version of the ROM are you using, also? (Hopefully it's not PRG 0.) And did this happen when watching it all the way from the beginning in one sitting, or after loading some savestate to resume it? (It seems to play fine for me, in both 0.98.12 and 0.98.13.)
Joined: 11/22/2004
Posts: 1468
Location: Rotterdam, The Netherlands
I use the latest version of FCEU: 0.98.13, the one you compiled, nitsuja. However, it must be because I fast-forwarded through a whole lot of stuff. I didn't use a save state, so I used the turbo button all the way. I had been looking at 100% speed for a while when the desync happened, however. I'm also using the correct ROM. Ah well, it was probably an isolated incident.