http://www.nerdparadise.com/crap/LoZLttP-Omni-WIP1.smv
Because there isn't anything else to compare it to I'll have to compare it to TSA's run (which is really really unfair >.<)
But it's up to the Sanctuary and perhaps 12 seconds faster.
(Sorry TSA, <3)
Build a man a fire, warm him for a day,
Set a man on fire, warm him for the rest of his life.
So you're deciding to not get money from the rats? I'm not sure if it's worth it either, or what the fastest way to get rupees is later, but you can manipulate the rats to always drop rupees to get about 160 rupees at the cost of the 10 or 20 seconds it takes to kill most of the rats.
I'm noticing places where you do extra movement that coud be avoided by either manipulating luck or just walking even closer to the guards. For example, in the room with the map on the way back up, and in the room directly south of that on the way down, you walk more perpendicular to where you're going than necessary. A few times you don't line up with doors which wastes a few frames getting pushed sideways, although most of the time you enter them exactly in the center.
The guard in the cellar can be manipulated to walk the other way so you don't have to boomarang it at all. In fact, almost all enemies can be manipulated by a combination of changing the frame you enter the room, and changing what buttons you're holding on the frame they decide which way to turn, in case you didn't know that... I think the rat you get the key from can also be manipulated to not run as far away from you as it did before you killed it.
Oh, and why do stop and wait for the boomarang to return to you the very first time you throw it? You can just keep going through the door without it and you still get the key upon entering the next room. But good job on killing the guards ultra-fast, I think getting it that fast is much harder to do than it looks.
Actually I tested the boomarang thing. That's the first frame I can exit with the key. Otherwise I lose the key in the screen transition.
(EDIT: OHSHI~! Nevermind.)
I think earlier in the thread it was kinda decided that using the gambling game to get the 500 rupees was quickest.
I'll work on enemy manipulation.
And I'll test straight vs. diagonal walking.
Build a man a fire, warm him for a day,
Set a man on fire, warm him for the rest of his life.
Some more random hints:
- Whenever there's a pull-switch on the wall, you can start pulling on the wall from a pretty large distance away from the switch (like 1 and a half links) and the game will teleport you in front of the switch, saving half a second or so of walking.
- The boomarang can be thrown in a completely different direction from what you're facing even while you're moving, just press the throw direciton on the same frame as the use-item button and you'll throw it without turning to face that way. (Maybe not that useful but I think it looks stylish to throw it backwards or sideways.)
- You can start walking away from a treasure chest at the same time as you open it.
- You can alter the direction you're facing while walking diagonally by pressing the desired direction for 1 frame then holding diagonally. The diagonal walking speed isn't affected at all by what direction you're facing, although the percieved speed often is since it looks like you should be moving faster in the direction you're facing.
And I just tested diagonals a bit... unlike I previously thought, walking diagonally is actually a little slower in each individual direction it takes you, so moving back and forth while walking down a corridor isn't free, however besides that it's still always faster to walk diagonally whenever possible.
Oh, and about the gambling game, don't you only get 50 rupees for paying 20, so you gain 30 rupees per time? Since it involves walking in and out of the gambling house with a screen transition both times and talking to the guy to start the game, I think picking up rupees elsewhere could still be faster.
edit: And I can't believe I missed this, but when Zelda says "Sanctuary is just beyond that door. Pull that switch over there" right near the end... that's totally unnecessary, you can walk a bit to the right first and that dialog box won't be triggered at all.
Updated. 341 frames faster.
Same URL.
EDIT: Perhaps I should put some notes,
In the first basement with the two green guards, it is impossible to manipulate them based on the frame the screen moves over, I'm going to guess that means that the only time enemy's random motions are calculated is when you go through a door.
Which is why I wound up doing what TSA did and manipulated them by my posistion, and am therefore three frames too high and have to come back down.
I only searched 6 frames deep on enemy manipulation when going through doors.
The buttons you hold down seem to have no effect on the motions of enemies (other than sword swing, and probably dash when I get that). (I can't make the enemies do crazy shit by holding down X, R or L.)
I have to test whether or not grabbing a bottle and then hitting the guard 4 times is as fast as just blitzkreiging him.
*nod* That's the case on diagonals.
If anyone sees somewhere I can get hit forward easily tell me. I'm usually oblivious to that type of thing. *sweatdrop*
Build a man a fire, warm him for a day,
Set a man on fire, warm him for the rest of his life.
It's 12 frames faster.
EDIT: And on that note, I'm going to watch the inside of my eyelids for a few hours. I'll try to work on this tomorrow evening. But I can't make any promises.
Build a man a fire, warm him for a day,
Set a man on fire, warm him for the rest of his life.
In the first basement with the two green guards, it is impossible to manipulate them based on the frame the screen moves over, I'm going to guess that means that the only time enemy's random motions are calculated is when you go through a door.
I'm not so sure about that. I think those particular two guards happen to not be randomized and always are in that position when you get there.
OmnipotentEntity wrote:
The buttons you hold down seem to have no effect on the motions of enemies (other than sword swing, and probably dash when I get that).
The directional buttons definitely have an effect. When a guard stops and turns around, he'll choose between right or left depending on which way you're facing, for example. Or when a rat hits a wall and turns along it, you can choose which way to make it turn by facing a different way or even just letting go of the directions on the right frame. It may also affect the randomization that decides if an enemy drops an item.
OmnipotentEntity wrote:
If anyone sees somewhere I can get hit forward easily tell me. I'm usually oblivious to that type of thing. *sweatdrop*
Oh, the guards can actually knock you forward... I seem to recall this not being worth it though because the push you get forward is actually slower than your normal walking speed and you can't start walking again until it ends completely.
Hmm... now that I think about it, I had a couple of Ropes that I couldn't manipulate either. That's probably the case Nitsuja. Thanks. ^^;
The directional buttons I knew about. I was talking about X, L and R. The ones that are easy to add because they do nothing on outside of the menu.
And about the getting hit thing. You have to be hit from behind and some other things affect it. In the case with the guard in the courtyard it was faster than walking.
Build a man a fire, warm him for a day,
Set a man on fire, warm him for the rest of his life.
Some other things about the run so far, these are just nitpicks but they do cost a little time:
- In the big main entry room of the castle, you take a non-optimal path through that room (both times).
- In the room with the green guard you have to kill to get into the room with the boomarang, you can manipulate that guard to start out walking to the right instead of up in order to kill him faster and closer to the door.
- In the first dark room with rats in it, you go a bit out of the way to avoid a rat, which can be made to go in a completely different direction by changing when you hug the wall it's running along.
- In the room with bats, 2 snakes running at you and a key in a chest, one of the snakes can be made to not run at you, so you don't have to throw a boomarang to get through.
- You lose 7 frames walking diagonally each time you go through the little two-stair room B2 above where Zelda is/was -- try going sideways first, then up+side. (What you do is slower because sometimes Link's diagonal running speed is cut in half just after entering a room or using an item.)
As far as I can tell, straight-up slashing is the fastest way to defeat the ball-and-chain guy, compared to throwing pots. But, throwing a single pot at him is almost as fast (within 5 frames). Actually, I think it's possible to save even more time by doing something like pinning him up against zelda's jail cell instead of the far wall, and/or using a spin attack (prepared while walking toward him) that hits him twice, but I haven't tried these out.
At the part where you got hit, even in slow motion it doesn't look faster than walking to me, and it looks accidental when playing back at full speed, despite the fact it's certainly not accidental and in fact I'm not really sure how you managed to get the guard to push you at that angle. I just think that manipulating the guard to not be in your way so you can walk through at normal speed would look better. When you said it's 12 frames faster, did you mean it's 12 frames faster than it would have been if there were no guards at all?
(edit: added last nitpick)
Some other things about the run so far, these are just nitpicks but they do cost a little time:
- In the big main entry room of the castle, you take a non-optimal path through that room (both times).
I'm not seeing the optimal path. I'll get on IRC, and bug you about it there.
nitsuja wrote:
- In the room with the green guard you have to kill to get into the room with the boomarang, you can manipulate that guard to start out walking to the right instead of up in order to kill him faster and closer to the door.
I only tried delaying upto 6 frames (as it was late, and I needed sleep). But if I did take a non-optimal route through the first room then I'll be able to try it on a different frame of entry, which is good.
nitsuja wrote:
- In the first dark room with rats in it, you go a bit out of the way to avoid a rat, which can be made to go in a completely different direction by changing when you hug the wall it's running along.
Totally my fault. I should have caught that.
nitsuja wrote:
- In the room with bats, 2 snakes running at you and a key in a chest, one of the snakes can be made to not run at you, so you don't have to throw a boomarang to get through.
>.<; I kinda assumed they always came at you.
nitsuja wrote:
- You lose 7 frames walking diagonally each time you go through the little two-stair room B2 above where Zelda is/was -- try going sideways first, then up+side. (What you do is slower because sometimes Link's diagonal running speed is cut in half just after entering a room or using an item.)
Will fix.
nitsuja wrote:
As far as I can tell, straight-up slashing is the fastest way to defeat the ball-and-chain guy, compared to throwing pots. But, throwing a single pot at him is almost as fast (within 5 frames). Actually, I think it's possible to save even more time by doing something like pinning him up against zelda's jail cell instead of the far wall, and/or using a spin attack (prepared while walking toward him) that hits him twice, but I haven't tried these out.
Again with the late at night. No time to test. (I'm still getting used to the game ^^;;)
nitsuja wrote:
At the part where you got hit, even in slow motion it doesn't look faster than walking to me, and it looks accidental when playing back at full speed, despite the fact it's certainly not accidental and in fact I'm not really sure how you managed to get the guard to push you at that angle. I just think that manipulating the guard to not be in your way so you can walk through at normal speed would look better. When you said it's 12 frames faster, did you mean it's 12 frames faster than it would have been if there were no guards at all?
The 12 frames was compaired avoiding the guard. I haven't tried to manipulate them away yet. But the path I choose in avoiding them didn't seem longer than just walking to the exit. (But it might have suffered slowdown or something. It's hard to tell when you're frame advancing.)
Which is a very good question. Is it quicker to make chunks where Link is running in one direction as long as possible, or as short as possible, or does it not matter?
*goes to test and tinker with movie.*
Build a man a fire, warm him for a day,
Set a man on fire, warm him for the rest of his life.
Winning the gambling game nets you 300 rupees in the best chest. This strat should only be used if it is determined that you cannot get the required amount of rupees in time by exploiting randomness.
I know it's not much. But here's up to the coming back to the first floor with Zelda.
Notes:
-60 frames faster up to that point (mostly the atrium and the four baddies that I have to kill)
-Saved a frame in the cave.
-Didn't take hit in courtyard, saved 2 frames in the bushes (from middle of 3rd bush to door opening was the same amount of time though).
-Used boomerang glitch thing. (That saved ~2 frames each time, 2x)
-Killed all the baddies quicker (If it can be done quicker the difference is maybe a frame, if not a pixel)
-Green Guard: I can't make him come down, I've tested up to a wait of 14 frames. And I figure if he can come down and hasn't yet, then it'd still just be quicker to just waltz straight in and kill him.
-Tested the pot, not as quick.
EDIT: Leprechauns thwarted.
Build a man a fire, warm him for a day,
Set a man on fire, warm him for the rest of his life.
I get:
404 Massive Existence Failiure
The requested resource has been solen by a brigand of angry leprechauns...
Oh, wait a sec, actually it's at
http://www.nerdparadise.com/crap/LoZLttP-Omni-WIP2.smv
(leprechauns must have uncapitalized the Z).
OmnipotentEntity wrote:
Green Guard: I can't make him come down, I've tested up to a wait of 14 frames. And I figure if he can come down and hasn't yet, then it'd still just be quicker to just waltz straight in and kill him.
If you mean in the room before the boomarang, even if you could get him to go down, I think it would still be faster to get him to move right instead, since that's closer to the direction you have to move anyway.
OmnipotentEntity wrote:
Tested the pot, not as quick.
Although if they had just put it a *little* bit closer it would be faster. I'm guessing you still kill him when he's pinned against the wall -- have you tested whether knocking him to the left before he dies is faster? It loses some frames positioning yourself to prevent him getting stuck, but it saves walking + boomarang return time back to the cell, so I'm not sure which is faster. Also, stabbing does just as much damage as slashing, always hits at the earliest possible frame if you're close enough, and doesn't knock enemies as far away.
Actually, having watched it, I think you probably fight both the guard and the miniboss guy as fast as possible. But, when entering that room you let the stairs slow you down by walking straight down instead of to the right first, and the same thing happens soon afterward on the way back up coming out into B1 where it's noticeably faster to start out moving left instead of down.
>.<;
Will fix.
And I wasn't able to get the Green Guard to move to the right either. Just up and left.
EDIT: Fixed that and another stairway bug. 89 frames faster at the entrance to the Secret Passage. Will release again at Sanctuary. Then hopefully, it's on to the first dungeon.
EDIT2: 119 frames faster at Sanctuary.
http://www.nerdparadise.com/crap/LoZLttP-Omni-WIP2.smv
Build a man a fire, warm him for a day,
Set a man on fire, warm him for the rest of his life.
I was thinking of taking this path (it differs slightly from TSA's because I don't need the hookshot in the Ice Cave):
0. Hyrule Castle
l1. East Palace (Bow)
l2. Desert Palace
i. Ether
l3. Tower of Hera
0b. Hyrule Castle Take 2
d1. Palace of Darkness
i. Flute
d4. Blind's Hideout
i. Sword L.3
i. Quake
i. Flippers
d6. Misery Mire
*if you need the fire wand to kill the Ice Demon and Kholdstare (will the lamp work?)*
d3. Skull Dungeon
d5. Ice Palace
i. Ice Rod
i. Sword L.4
*if you don't*
d5. Ice Palace
i. Ice Rod
i. Sword L.4
d3. Skull Dungeon
d2. The Watergate Dungeon
d7. Turtle Rock
d8. Ganon's Tower
d8b. Pyramid of Power
Build a man a fire, warm him for a day,
Set a man on fire, warm him for the rest of his life.
