I would tend to go by what the game defines, rather than some arbitrary goal. And this 'perfect amounts of all missable items' goal is as arbitrary as it gets. In no other TAS, not even 100% playthroughs, does it ever define you to get maximum of every collectable item there is, so why should an FF9 TAS be any different.
Ditch the arbitrary goal, go by what the game defines, and aim for the fastest time possible. It would make the TAS, at least from my perspective, much more entertaining.
The problem here is that the game does nothing to define what a Perfect Game is. The only person to do that so far (to my knowledge) is Atomos, and his definitions, while not exactly arbitrary, are tailored to fit a gameplay style that is "perfect" excepting cases like the missable purchasable items, which, since you can't get 99 of each, and since purchasing a maximum amount of each is nearly impossible to define or do in a real-time playthrough, is just defined as "perfect" @ enough to equip to every party member that can equip + one extra for the inventory. Which is somewhat arbitrary, but relieves a lot of work on the player at the expense of less items while still falling under Atomos' perfect guidelines.
Which is what bothers me about the run.
Toothache wrote:
does it ever define you to get maximum of every collectable item there is
Exactly, I agree, but SINCE the run would be using Atomos' definitions, you would have to get 99 of SOME items. In section H04 of his guide, he mentions this about recovery items and gems. And because of this, getting 99 of some items and just 4 of others (even though you could get more) is bothersome. Sorry if I'm beating this to death.
Why do you need to use one person's definition of 100%? Nowhere in any other 100% speedrun definition have I seen a requirement to get 99 Potions, 99 Hi-Potions, etc. If you want to make the game a huge collect-a-thon, that's fine, but the goal of Excalibur II quest alone is not that. Sure, with a 12 hour time limit there's a lot can be done, but I'd argue against going for an arbitrary goal that one person decided that did not take into account the complexity and entertainment required for a TAS.
tl;dr, let's have an intelligent debate about the goals here rather than just going by this arbitrary set of goals by some guy from GameFAQs. Common sense is needed here, and its not as common as advertised.
I do agree with toothache, despite wanting to see a 'perfect game'. But not half as much as I want to see the game blitzed ASAP... or as blitzed as you're ever gonna get with a modern RPG anyway!
At the end of the day though, it's not my final decision and it's not my TAS. Good luck exileut with whatever epic TAS you're about to embark on. :)
Joined: 8/6/2006
Posts: 784
Location: Connecticut, USA
Toothache wrote:
Why do you need to use one person's definition of 100%? Nowhere in any other 100% speedrun definition have I seen a requirement to get 99 Potions, 99 Hi-Potions, etc. If you want to make the game a huge collect-a-thon, that's fine, but the goal of Excalibur II quest alone is not that. Sure, with a 12 hour time limit there's a lot can be done, but I'd argue against going for an arbitrary goal that one person decided that did not take into account the complexity and entertainment required for a TAS.
tl;dr, let's have an intelligent debate about the goals here rather than just going by this arbitrary set of goals by some guy from GameFAQs. Common sense is needed here, and its not as common as advertised.
Ok, so I'm starting to understand where our debate is sort of broken: there's a subtle difference between a "100% speedrun" and a "Perfect speedrun". What you keep defining is the 100% speedrun, which I completely agree is sufficient enough for an EII TAS. But since others in this thread keep making reference to the "Perfect run" I got sort of bothered with the goals, which is why I opened my mouth in the first place.
Sorry for the confusion. I vote on defining a 100% EII run, which would be much more enjoyable and wouldn't contain unecessary collecting.
It's frame perfect so far. I went with not stealing since I don't know how. (Good reason I know) Who knows maybe manipulating the steal and going into the menu to equip it takes the same amount of time as not using it. When you find out how to steal quickly we can compare runs! Mostly simple movement and text skips at this point. As for reading dialog boxes they aren't actually completely rendered. Square and X both skip dialog so I can use each on consecutive frames. Input is very precise compared to chrono cross and legend of legaia. Less frustration = more fun.
Vivi is just now using his fake ticket! 23k frames in. I'll link a pxm if there is enough interest.
edit 9: Skipped text always takes 6 frames to render from the appearance of the dialog box to all text being rendered. Changing character names to a single letter may not be faster. Or even setting text speed to maximum. I don't think changing these affects non skippable text either. I figured I would take the safe route and change character names to a single letter and turn on faster text just in case.
Joined: 3/18/2006
Posts: 971
Location: Great Britain
exileut wrote:
I can't find any pattern to this.
Update4: How do I affect the rng once in a battle? I've tried stealing every frame for 50 frames with the exact same outcome. It's like the rng never changes once a battle is commenced.
use lua scripts to quickly test and output results
I'm up to the first save of the non assisted run with fast disk speed.
30 seconds faster
I'm now working on asking other forum members for help with the rng/stealing/lua scripts!!
http://dehacked.2y.net/microstorage.php/info/805402435/f9%20wip3.pxm
29700 frames. 1437 rerecords. No echo buffers were hurt in the rerecording of this video.
Joined: 11/22/2004
Posts: 1468
Location: Rotterdam, The Netherlands
exileut wrote:
It's frame perfect so far. I went with not stealing since I don't know how. (Good reason I know) Who knows maybe manipulating the steal and going into the menu to equip it takes the same amount of time as not using it. When you find out how to steal quickly we can compare runs!
What's the alternative to stealing? I thought a Mage Masher steal was pretty much required to be able to use Tidal Wave on the first Black Waltz.
edit: also, you have a lot more to work with for that one first steal. Try to see if there's a difference between waiting a frame before starting a new game (hex edit one frame into the movie file). That might change things. Otherwise, I couldn't really say. One of the memory search gurus should take a look at this.
Stealing a Mage Masher is the easiest way to get one early on, and Zidane's Dyne skills are straight transformations of his regular Skills. You only have Tidal Flame if you have Detect. And Tidal Flame does wreak Black Waltz 1 pretty hard.
You definitely want to pick it up.
It's frame perfect so far. I went with not stealing since I don't know how. (Good reason I know) Who knows maybe manipulating the steal and going into the menu to equip it takes the same amount of time as not using it. When you find out how to steal quickly we can compare runs!
What's the alternative to stealing? I thought a Mage Masher steal was pretty much required to be able to use Tidal Wave on the first Black Waltz.
edit: also, you have a lot more to work with for that one first steal. Try to see if there's a difference between waiting a frame before starting a new game (hex edit one frame into the movie file). That might change things. Otherwise, I couldn't really say. One of the memory search gurus should take a look at this.
I don't have any friends here yet. As far as what I can do myself I will try adding frames before selecting new game. I figure I need to put up something to get people interested.
Edit1: Waiting 1 frame when choosing new game did change the 1st battle. This seems to have the exact same effect as waiting on the last dialog. It doesn't matter who attacks who or who steals first. The items stolen seem to be set in stone. Maybe having the ATB on wait would allow changing of the RNG during battle by waiting to input commands. But this would slow down the run too much. I will try the new game delay with a few more frames.
I'll test wait next. Should I still turn text speed to fast and change names to single letters? When a dialog is skipped all text inside is rendered in 1 frame, including the character name. I'm just thinking about non skippable texts. I don't know if fast text speed affects those.
I'd like to see such a run too. However, to get rid of the unnecessary collecting, I'd say aim to get the game into a state where it is possible to complete the Excalibur II Perfect Game. So like, you don't need to buy 99 Potions during the run (you know, short of it being a time-saver), since you would be able to buy them afterwards.
Wren pretty much hit the nail on the head - this alone could give the run a huge edge over any other RPG TAS.
Skeletal priority list?
#1: Obtain all miss-able items
#2: Open enough treasure chests to allow for the S Medal or Master Treasure Hunter or whatever it's called again
#3: Remain at the lowest possible level to allow stat maxing (which path? alternatively do Base Stats to cut this out)
#4: Speed
Joined: 8/6/2006
Posts: 784
Location: Connecticut, USA
As discussed earlier, it's probably best to define something like a "100%" run rather than a "perfect" run, especially before a serious run is underway. My suggestion for 100% is to get at least one of each item possible. Skip getting multiple amounts of items, even easy stuff like Potions. But I would still do all sidequests, open all chests, etc.
Hi.
I have started a any% TAS of Final Fantasy IX a while ago and got some questions about it.
The only way I've found to have the movie synced everytime is to record and play with No Sound plugin. Others SPU just messed the RNG and make your movie desync everytime you'll need a random number. So is a TAS with no sound acceptable here ?
Second problem : When playing with PCSX-rr or PSXjin I got this on the world map :
[URL=http://img96.imageshack.us/i/ff9worldmap.jpg/][/URL]
while playing with pSx v1.13, everything is fine. Any idea how to correct this ?
Finally, I'll need help with lua script since I don't know anything about it.
I would need a script that does :
From a savestate :
- Force a value x in the address A1 and a value y in the address A2
- Press X
- Move forward for z frames.
- Get the value in an address A3.
For y = 0 to 65535
If possible having the results in a list so I could quickly check what value of y gives what value in A3 it would be perfect.
Anyway, thanks in advance.
Sage advice from a friend of Jim: So put your tinfoil hat back in the closet, open your eyes to the truth, and realize that the government is in fact causing austismal cancer with it's 9/11 fluoride vaccinations of your water supply.
Well I've got more graphical problems with PSXjin.
It lags a ton on my computer and I got the same problem on the world map (characters, chocobos,... are all white)
I know it's probably just a simple thing to do on the Graphic configuration but I can't find what to do to fix this.
I've been meaning to post this sooner or later but PSXjin seems to have inconsistent lag frames and I have no idea why. At the first real ingame input, the lag frame counter could be anywhere between 564 to 575. When I recorded the first battle, the lag counter was in the upper portion but when I replay the movie, the RNG would be 2 samples slower which results in a different battle.
After about 7 encoding attempts, I finally got the RNG where I wanted it. I have no idea why the lag frames are so random after only 3 minutes into the movie but this will cause problems later on where a few lag frames here could make the RNG that much more difficult to sync (and the first disc is supposed to be at most 3 hours of gameplay).
I do have a little surprise thanks to a little help here for the location of the RNG http://www.gamefaqs.com/boards/197338-final-fantasy-ix/58796839
Here is what I have so far http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fX-iVlipCZs
Only a few seconds were lost to luck manipulation. Marcus had to wait a second or two for Cinna to complete his action. I needed Cinna to steal at that exact time (give or take about 30 frames) and Zidane was able to kill himself fast enough to allow Cinna to steal before the RNG advanced too far. I'm going to look into ways to advance the RNG without taking actions and reduce the time waited.
How could I be so stupid... The character switch button advances the RNG just like in ff8.
Edit1: When I was testing this game I also found that skipping dialog always takes the same amount of frames regardless of player name length.
How could I be so stupid... The character switch button advances the RNG just like in ff8.
Actually... it doesn't - at least in the version I have. It appears to step once every 50-60 frames.
Sage advice from a friend of Jim: So put your tinfoil hat back in the closet, open your eyes to the truth, and realize that the government is in fact causing austismal cancer with it's 9/11 fluoride vaccinations of your water supply.
Have you tried the Wait style of ATB as a source of luck manipulation? I believe this was used in the ff7 run. My disc 1 version is SLUS-01251.
I have 562 lag frames at first input. After the FMV is done playing I have 654.
PSXjin seems to have inconsistent lag frames and I have no idea why. At the first real ingame input, the lag frame counter could be anywhere between 564 to 575. When I recorded the first battle, the lag counter was in the upper portion but when I replay the movie, the RNG would be 2 samples slower which results in a different battle.
That's strange. I've tried to replay the same movies many times on two differents computer and the movie synced perfectly everytime. Same lag frames, RNG changing on the same frame everytime.
So in my case, psxjin answered all the desync issues. But I still got the problem of all characters, chocobo, zeppelin,... being white on the world map as shown above.
And of course ATB as to be put on "Wait" style for luck manipulation (RNG will still move even if the ennemy's ATB bar is on wait. Possibility to hit the ennemy twice before he acts, .... )
Have you tried the Wait style of ATB as a source of luck manipulation? I believe this was used in the ff7 run. My disc 1 version is SLUS-01251.
I have 562 lag frames at first input. After the FMV is done playing I have 654.
Haven't checked the lag.
However, I checked the ATB/Wait, which is what I was using. Yeah. It is definitely timer-based. I have the memory address... at home. Man, giving away all my sekrets.
Sage advice from a friend of Jim: So put your tinfoil hat back in the closet, open your eyes to the truth, and realize that the government is in fact causing austismal cancer with it's 9/11 fluoride vaccinations of your water supply.
Hey get back to ff8 :)
The address I was watching was 0007B720.
My first frame of battle input is 10899 and the value is 87.
My battle is completely different than zanoab's.
Taking actions or the enemy taking actions advances the value. As does waiting. You're right about the character switch button not advancing the value.
I don't even know what that value signifies but more addresses would be helpful.
30 seconds faster
I'm now working on asking other forum members for help with the rng/stealing/lua scripts!!
http://dehacked.2y.net/microstorage.php/info/805402435/f9%20wip3.pxm
29700 frames. 1437 rerecords. No echo buffers were hurt in the rerecording of this video.
[/URL]
while playing with pSx v1.13, everything is fine. Any idea how to correct this ?
Finally, I'll need help with lua script since I don't know anything about it.
I would need a script that does :
From a savestate :
- Force a value x in the address A1 and a value y in the address A2
- Press X
- Move forward for z frames.
- Get the value in an address A3.
For y = 0 to 65535
If possible having the results in a list so I could quickly check what value of y gives what value in A3 it would be perfect.
Anyway, thanks in advance.
