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Player (201)
Joined: 7/6/2004
Posts: 511
Actually for me the Utilities -> Rom Properties is always greyed off, but when I get the md5 from the command line it is: MD5 (StarCraft 64 (U) [!].zip) = 02696c37cdde5305a516c6153bdd4b6c Does this mean I am really using a different ROM or is it different because maybe it is carried out in a slightly different way? The CRC32 is the same for the movie's ROM and mine, I thought that was the same kind of thing as a MD5. Bag of Magic Food, it would be interesting to see if the movie desynchs for you too, possibly the 2 problems are linked? Oh btw, this comp is running windows xp home edition.
g,o,p,i=1e4,a[10001];main(x){for(;p?g=g/x*p+a[p]*i+2*!o: 53^(printf("%.4d",o+g/i),p=i,o=g%i);a[p--]=g%x)x=p*2-1;}
Player (68)
Joined: 3/11/2004
Posts: 1058
Location: Reykjaví­k, Ísland
nitsuja wrote:
About that movie: When you make a selection box to select units, wouldn't it be a lot faster to use the "select all nearby units" button instead? Also, I thought I saw a few places where the analog stick wasn't pushed 100% in any direction when moving the cursor across a distance, and some times where selection boxes were used to select single units when it wasn't necessary.
I think the "select nearby units" only works for combat units, but it might work if you have no combat units. I didn't try it. Most of the time, I'm not selecting every unit on screen anyway. The analog stick is a pain to work with when all you have in real life are very un-analog buttons. I had to change the sensitivity in the input menu, and sometimes I was just too lazy to change it back. Selection boxes were used for that same reason. When you can't control how far the stick goes, the cursor tends to jump huge distances every frame and it's impossible to target single units directly. Yes, I used only the keyboard.
Player (201)
Joined: 7/6/2004
Posts: 511
Oops stupid mistake, that was the md5 of the zip, real md5 is: MD5 (StarCraft 64 (U) [!].z64) = 559f71b861f639b6376d891e3023414b So same rom.
g,o,p,i=1e4,a[10001];main(x){for(;p?g=g/x*p+a[p]*i+2*!o: 53^(printf("%.4d",o+g/i),p=i,o=g%i);a[p--]=g%x)x=p*2-1;}
Emulator Coder, Skilled player (1311)
Joined: 12/21/2004
Posts: 2687
Maybe the zip file is throwing it off somehow? Try unzipping it and running that instead of running the zipped ROM. As far as I can tell, our setups are pretty identical besides that. Did you change any options in the settings dialog? And while this shouldn't matter, which plugins are you using? And what/where is the desync you're encountering?
Player (201)
Joined: 7/6/2004
Posts: 511
Actually I am not running it off the zipped rom, that was just a dumb mistake. I am using the options you described in the first page, except I couldn't find anything about anti aliasing, so the default on whatever that is. Tried with both jaba's 1.5.2 and 1.6. It is hard to tell where it desynchs because his commands are mostly valid from what I can tell. It is probably towards the beginning of the battle though.
g,o,p,i=1e4,a[10001];main(x){for(;p?g=g/x*p+a[p]*i+2*!o: 53^(printf("%.4d",o+g/i),p=i,o=g%i);a[p--]=g%x)x=p*2-1;}
Emulator Coder, Skilled player (1311)
Joined: 12/21/2004
Posts: 2687
Which other (sound/input/RSP) plugins, though? And what settings did you change? (hotkeys, full-screen, anything.) And what's the result of the desync, that he quickly gets destroyed by the Zerg? (Also, anti-aliasing is an option in the graphics plugin settings, both for 1.5.2 and for 1.6, it's right in the middle of the front page of its settings. All it does in this game is make the tiles line up incorrectly, if it's on.)
Player (201)
Joined: 7/6/2004
Posts: 511
Video: Jabo's Direct3D8 1.6 Input: N-Rage's Direct-Input8 1.60 Sound: Jabo's DirectSound 1.6 RSP: RSP emulation Plugin The only things I have changed are the things described on page 1, configured what keys are what, and changed frame advance to 'f' and pause/unpause to '\'. I am not using full screen. The result of the desynch is that all of Blublu's scv's die. One of his scvs loses alot of health at 2745/8648, but gets away. At 3322 the drones chasing that scv stop chasing it and start attacking the scvs that are attacking the hatchery. An scv dies at 3954. All scv's die by 5381, the hatchery was down to maybe 3/4 of its original health.
g,o,p,i=1e4,a[10001];main(x){for(;p?g=g/x*p+a[p]*i+2*!o: 53^(printf("%.4d",o+g/i),p=i,o=g%i);a[p--]=g%x)x=p*2-1;}
Emulator Coder, Skilled player (1311)
Joined: 12/21/2004
Posts: 2687
OK, it's probably an emulator bug, I can't quite tell what from this but I have some ideas of things that might help. Sorry... I'll try fixing it when I can.
Player (201)
Joined: 7/6/2004
Posts: 511
Ok thanks, if there is any more information you need or anything you want me to test out just let me know.
g,o,p,i=1e4,a[10001];main(x){for(;p?g=g/x*p+a[p]*i+2*!o: 53^(printf("%.4d",o+g/i),p=i,o=g%i);a[p--]=g%x)x=p*2-1;}
Former player
Joined: 3/9/2004
Posts: 484
Location: ­­
Okay, the movie desynchronized for me as well. I used exactly the same plugins / settings recommended in the topic. I'm also using Windows XP, and the Frame Advance command works correctly for me.
Ambassador, Experienced player (710)
Joined: 7/17/2004
Posts: 985
Location: The FLOATING CASTLE
Wow, this is exciting me as well. Cheap bloodbath skirmishes are neat, but I would like to see a run through the campaign. As I found out when doing Fire Emblem, a TAS on a strategy game requires a lot of skill and knowledge about the game, and this will be even tougher since you can't just manipulate all your hits away. Still, there are certainly ways to abuse enemy AI, rerecording, and slow motion to finish most missions very quickly. Unfortunately, the enemy is already entrenched in most campaign missions, so you can't just drone rush. My hunch is that the fastest method for almost every mission is a marine/hydra/dragoon rush (I have played through the original campaign like this.) This army can be built fairly quickly, and with multiple well-planned actions per second to micro these guys, this tactic should be absolutely devastating. If the mission has some goal for a certain target, then it can be ended quickly with a hero rush or some other dirty trick. This is what I think will be really interesting. I know that quite a few missions have hidden goals, for example the official goal is to destroy everything but you really only need to take out the command center.
Editor, Reviewer, Experienced player (980)
Joined: 4/17/2004
Posts: 3109
Location: Sweden
There was some topic somewhere a while ago which had speed run videos for all the campaigns. I'll see if I can dig it up. A few of the levels where just bum rushes with the hero and SCVs like you said. While you cannot manipulate all your hits away, you can move your melee zerg or toss to the back all the time to distribute damage and allow them to regenerate while someone else is fighting. The computer doesn't do this. And there's the hydra dance... offensive towering... and like a million other tactics I don't know/understand. I mostly watch, I'm not that good a player.
Player (201)
Joined: 7/6/2004
Posts: 511
TheAxeMan, glad to hear you interest, I liked fire emblem too, I should check out your run to see what I could be getting in to :) I agree that a campaign should be done as the run, but I haven't decided which yet, I'll talk more about that later. Truncated, I am aware of that topic actually, and I beat or tied most of that guys times, but he might have kept playing since I last checked in and beaten me back. My most impressive was the last terran level in brood war, my time = 5:19, his time = 16:59 (most were much closer than this though). I had the advantage of being given the time to beat and a video of his method though. Because this game is so immensly popular for the PC, many bugs have been found, and Blizzard has updated the game to fix most of these bugs. They make notes of this in the patch logs, so I went through there and selected the potentiall useful ones. Recently it looks like they got less descriptive though. Here is the list: 1.13e # Fixed several bugs that contributed to game exploits. 1.13 # Fixed several bugs that contributed to game exploits. (could these be intercepter crush? and what else?) 1.11B # Fixed a bug that allowed Zerg to build without the need for creep. # Fixed a bug that allowed buildings to be stacked on top of each other. 1.11 # Fixed a bug that enabled you to make a Command Center slide into a location by building a Comsat Station then canceling it due to lack of resources. # Fixed a bug related to a Drone flying when surrounded by other units. # Fixed a bug that caused Templars to fly across the map when interrupting an Archon Merge. # Fixed a bug where a drone could skate across terrain to an arbitrary destination after failing to build an extractor. 1.05 # Fixed the bug that allowed terran buildings to move after landing. # Fixed the bug that incorrectly allowed 'morph to lurker' commands to be issued to units that weren't hydralisks. 1.04 # Invincible Drone bug has been fixed Of these the only one that I currently know how to do is the invincible drone bug, but I think the n64 version was released after it was known, so not sure if it will work. WGTour current banned glitches are: * Hydralisk Stack * Observer o­n turret * SCV/Drone/Probe stack I know how to do all of these except hydra stack. If wanted I can post how to do the ones I know, I'll try and figure some of the old ones out too. Also there have been about 100 balance changes since its original release, this will just take a while to get unused to. Now for which campaign would make the best time attack? I thought the BW zerg because it is last and thus hardest, but after scoutting it out most of the missions are to destroy the entire enemy base, which although I am sure could be done much faster than normal would still take a while and get repetitive. Next I looked at BW protoss, and it looks very promising, not many of the levels are to destroy the entire base, but most are still challenging. One problem with the protoss though, is that I do not think crazy micro will help as much as it could with other races. For instance with zerg, zergling + dark swarm + consume could allow for fast destruction of most levels since they are mostly against just a bunch of terran marines. I have the most experience with SC terran, but the dreaded level with waiting 30 minutes makes this not an option, but maybe in the N64 version they made it so if you destroy everything you don't have to wait? Unlikely but worth a shot, it is pretty easy on the PC version but it would be pretty hard for me on n64 version because I suck with the controls. I don't remember BW terran, SC zerg, SC protoss very well and I haven't scouted those yet so will do. Oh yeah 1 more issue, in the n64 version as you go along some levels have secret objectives and if you achieve them grant you access to the standard PC cheat codes, but I do not think any of these should be allowed because they would remove all strategy what so ever.
g,o,p,i=1e4,a[10001];main(x){for(;p?g=g/x*p+a[p]*i+2*!o: 53^(printf("%.4d",o+g/i),p=i,o=g%i);a[p--]=g%x)x=p*2-1;}
Former player
Joined: 5/22/2004
Posts: 462
Why not do all of the campaigns? If this movie gets published, they don't have to make an .avi out of it, due to massive length. Just include savestates at the start of each campaign for easy fast-forwarding. Also, it should hopefully be easy to hex-edit improved missions in, making it easy to improve individual levels without having to redo the entire 6-hour run.
Player (206)
Joined: 5/29/2004
Posts: 5712
...But what if it isn't?
put yourself in my rocketpack if that poochie is one outrageous dude
Player (201)
Joined: 7/6/2004
Posts: 511
6 hours is pretty good estimate, assuming the game runs as fast as on the PC, maybe a little more. I don't think there is anyone that would want to make that kind of length of movie or anyone that would want to watch that kind of length of movie though. After looking at it more the BW: terran looks pretty good too, I would say it is a toss up between BW terran and protoss. Also I went and I checked the SDA and since I last looked alot of SC times have been improved and now they have records for all levels. The level I bragged was my most impressive, was beat, I am dling video now to see how (slow connection though). A few of my personal best are still faster than the records, but most aren't now.
g,o,p,i=1e4,a[10001];main(x){for(;p?g=g/x*p+a[p]*i+2*!o: 53^(printf("%.4d",o+g/i),p=i,o=g%i);a[p--]=g%x)x=p*2-1;}
Editor, Reviewer, Experienced player (980)
Joined: 4/17/2004
Posts: 3109
Location: Sweden
I think all the campaigns could be interesting for a run. Since they are disjoint and you don't have to play any campaign to unlock another (at least in the PC version, don't know about N64), you could make up to 6 separate AVIs instead. That could be done even if someone decides to do one massive movie file, actually. Which PC version is N64 based on, or at least released after? If any of the terran slides worked that could seriously improve terran economy. Videos, for anyone interested: http://speeddemosarchive.com/Starcraft.html http://speeddemosarchive.com/StarcraftBroodWar.html I haven't checked most of them myself. Will do later. Flag, feel like throwing together a movie of 1 or 2 levels to show everyone your awesomeness?
Player (68)
Joined: 3/11/2004
Posts: 1058
Location: Reykjaví­k, Ísland
Yes, there should be 6 different videos, one for each campaign, since you can play any campaign at the start of SC64. (press left or right at the start)
Player (201)
Joined: 7/6/2004
Posts: 511
Well since Blublu's vid desynched for me I assume my vids would desynch for others, but it could still be worth a shot and good practice. For now I will keep my efforts on general research and stuff. Still trying to decide between BW protoss and BW terran. If that command center slide works it is a huge plus to doing the terran. Doing all campaigns is I guess in the long run an option, but I don't think I'll do more than one if I any. Maybe it could be some sort of team effort to get all 6? I'll try and post a comparison of all BW T and P levels to help decide which would be best to do first. Edit: Something fun to try for anyone interested, it is possible to beat BW Terran 1, without ever meeting Duran and thus having no gas, but it is pretty hard and game designers never thought it possible so the corresponding dialog after mission complete makes no sense. However it is much much slower than just meeting Duran so it makes no sense for a time attack but something still really fun to try.
g,o,p,i=1e4,a[10001];main(x){for(;p?g=g/x*p+a[p]*i+2*!o: 53^(printf("%.4d",o+g/i),p=i,o=g%i);a[p--]=g%x)x=p*2-1;}
Joined: 2/16/2005
Posts: 462
I saw the vids and most of the long ones look like they would benefit from a lot better macro managing. If the objective is to wipe out the enemy I dont think you should have any resources at the end that just seems like waste. Those movies looked like good play but not really anything super. A lot of the shorter ones though you can tell the player had a clearly defined objective (like build a ghost and two nukes as fast as possible etc..) and the strategies should be considered for a TAS. Though Im not sure how much an effect glitches will have on the run.
This signature is much better than its previous version.
Player (201)
Joined: 7/6/2004
Posts: 511
You are right about the SDA vids, they are pretty good, but a few are just soso. You point out that a level should be ended with nearly 0 resources, but what is the point of spending money if in the time it takes for you to train the extra troops and for those troops to get to the battle the level is over? Nothing so instead of spending money, just stop making it, send all workers to join the fight just when you've gathered enough money. I have been watching the SDA vids today and trying my own tactics. Here is a summary of my analysis:
lvl	sda		est		fun	notes
t
01	7:22	4:30	7	from start cloak duran, waste their comsat energy
02	4:26	3:00	7 	time assumes talks will be fast
03	8:23	5:45	8	for top right, use goliath+dropship pop + troops
04	5:52	5:30	5	impressive sda tactic, 99% waiting though, spell
05	8:20	5:45	7	all you really need is 1 dropship
06	3:27	2:30	8	impressive sda, savings due to n64 dialog skip
07	11:58	7:30	7
08	4:43	4:15	9
sum	54:31	37:30	58
p
01	2:44	2:15	6	good sda
02	12:13	9:00	5	kill all buildings
03	11:01	6:00	8	assume reaver pop works, kill asap once shuttle
04	2:47	2:00	8	good sda
05	7:42	5:00	8	excute much better
06	1:51	1:30	8	impressive sda
07	4:19	1:30	9	!!!! me = 1:49
08	16:39	13:00	6+	run around delay, early quit maybe
sum	59:16	40:15	58
Some levels in PC have long forced dialogs, in the 64 version I think all dialogs are just text screens and you can exit them immediately. Also I remember reading somewhere that in the N64 version it was either the shuttle or the dropship, but one cannot drop units while moving, this is really bad, but hopefully it isn't true, need to test. For many levels the SDA vids use an optimal strategy, but here are some major strat changes: T3, attack all parts nearly in parallel. The top right appearingly requires brute force, but in actuallity it does not guardian attacks can be evaded by loading the unit in a dropship at the last second. T5, I was able to beat this level using a single drop ship with 2 tanks in it P3, I predict a huge savings here, the strategy is rather complicated and probably very very difficult to pull off. I'm not sure how well the reaver pop works in the 64 version, but if works, it might be of some help. P7, Why build 3 shuttles, when you can just steal one with upgraded speed? At the very beginning attack left side with all forces. Comp will send a shuttle with a dragoon in it. Mind control this and bring it back and pick up the other dark archon. Now head up to the top avoid any damage to shuttle. When over cliff near goal, drop dragoon, move shuttle+goon up, drop dark archon on top and mind control the dude. I got a time of 1:49, and over a minute of that is forced movie like stuff. P8, while it won't be easy I think it will be possible to put the dudes in the temple almost immediately, then we will have to lead the enemy troops in circles for a very long time. Since this is the last level you could stop the movie early so the temple almost dies. So after analyzing all the levels I still don't know which would make a better time attack, so either or, it really doesn't matter. One of the main reasons I would want to do the protoss is to show off level 7, but if I go with terran maybe I could try to make a regular speed run of that level and send it to SDA so I don't feel bad about not using it. One of the main reasons against protoss is level 2, it is a classic kill all enemy buildings level that will take a while, but just 1 of these won't make it boring. A major problem with doing the terran is level 4, the SDA person's strategy is very smart, but very boring, and I don't know if it can be beaten even with crazy TT micro. I have tried things like dropping tanks in top right to kill the physics labs instead but, the cpu is very active in its responses in this level, sending lots of troops by dropship to defend.
g,o,p,i=1e4,a[10001];main(x){for(;p?g=g/x*p+a[p]*i+2*!o: 53^(printf("%.4d",o+g/i),p=i,o=g%i);a[p--]=g%x)x=p*2-1;}
Player (201)
Joined: 7/6/2004
Posts: 511
Sorry double post (obsessed) I toyed around more with BWT04. I think a drop in the top right will be faster than 2 nukes, but it will be really hard to pull off even with tools. I think it will involve flying all buildings and maybe even a couple extra engineering bays with as decoys. One potential option when landing is there is a mini cliff where 2 tanks can be dropped, if positioned right they take up the whole cliff and nothing else can be put up there but the computer is stupid and will keep trying. Beating the level in this fashion well make the next level different. Here are key differences: New way: Start with 2 scvs, 150 minerals, 100 gas, and a factory, shortly they give reinforcements which consist of 8 scvs, some marines, and 2 dropships. The computer also seemed to have alot more ghost which made attacking it harder due to so much lockdown. Old way: Start with 4 scvs, 250 minerals, 150 gas, no factory, a bunch of goliaths/ghost, no dropships. I think the new way will be much faster, I previously stated all that is needed is 1 dropship with tanks in it, so it should be pretty fast, unless the increased lockdown really hurts, but this might just be my imagination that there is more anyways. I am pretty happy with BW terran now, my vote is for their campaign.
g,o,p,i=1e4,a[10001];main(x){for(;p?g=g/x*p+a[p]*i+2*!o: 53^(printf("%.4d",o+g/i),p=i,o=g%i);a[p--]=g%x)x=p*2-1;}
Editor, Reviewer, Experienced player (980)
Joined: 4/17/2004
Posts: 3109
Location: Sweden
My vote is for whichever campaign you think you can finish. BWT sounds good to me. Is the next level different depending on the method you beat the previous level? I don't remember that, I thought none of the levels got information from previous levels. But it's been a good few years since I touched the campaign.
Emulator Coder
Joined: 10/9/2004
Posts: 453
Location: Norway
Go for it! lol. I refuse to judge anything before I've seen it :D
Joined: 11/5/2005
Posts: 23
I registered just because of this topic. :D This project has me very excited! I always wondered what Starcraft would look like as a TAS. You have some good strategies. I can't believe Marsh and I never thought of sending 2 tanks on BWT05. :P For BWT01 you send Duran to the top left and slowly kill the Command Center? Is it really that simple? I haven't tried but you could build an engineering bay and refinery to get +1 attack. I'm not sure if the upgrade would finish in time, but if it does, every little bit helps. Do you plan on sending legit runs of the BW terran campaign to SDA? If not, would you mind if I gave a shot at missions 1 and 5? I would credit you for the strat, like I did for mission 8.
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