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Posted: 9/7/2005 1:31 AM
Post subject: The 7th Saga
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Tailz
Former player
Joined: 7/2/2005
Posts: 309
Location: Baltimore, MD
The 7th Saga is an RPG made by Enix an is one of my all-time favorites. It's got superb graphics and an ok storyline and is really tough. Has anyone thought about doing a run of it? I've beaten the game several times myself and it takes a very long time, but with luck manipulation it might take too long. I'd like to try a run myself but I'm new to the speed run/TAS community and I'm not to familiar with luck manipulation. If I didn't use luck manipulation and did the run, I'd wind up with a run that could be anywhere from 10-40 hours long and that would just be ridiculous. Would anyone like to see a run of this?
Guybrush: "I'm selling these fine leather jackets." Wally: "Really?" Guybrush: "No. I 'm lying." Wally: "In that case, I don't want one!" Currently working on: Nothing at the moment.
Posted: 9/7/2005 2:49 AM
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Kitsune
Joined: 4/29/2005
Posts: 1212
I love this game, and would love to see a run of it! It's one of my favorites to play on an Emulator, hehe. But deciding which class/race to use will be the challenging part. I would probably go with the Alien, because of the overall brute force and the strong Fire Magic. Plus, the Alien doesn't need weapons, just armor. Of course, I don't know if there are any weapons for the Alien yet. Haven't gotten very far in game with him...Yet. ;3
Posted: 9/7/2005 5:23 AM
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Healblade
Joined: 8/1/2004
Posts: 91
This would be an interesting run, indeed. With luck manipulation, you'd be able to avoid most or all "random battles". Personally, I'd suggest LUX (the tetujin) and either Kamil (the warrior human) or Olvan (the dwarf) for their high strength and defense, choosing LUX over one of them for financial reasons. This will also facilitate a couple of the more frustrating parts of the game: (1) The Dragon guarding the Sky Rune: This dragon pretty much requires that you use Fire Magic on it, if I remember correctly. Olvan's or Kamil's Fire 1 (you probably won't have Fire 2 yet) will be helpful here, as well as any B Fire you find. (2) The Curse of Silence: Without Apprentices that depend on their magical ability, Metal Pison and the rest of this part of the game shouldn't be as difficult or slow. At first glance, it appears that Agility will be your most important stat, as dodging attacks completely will probably be a necessary tactic for survival. Defense + Double Attack will probably be your primary means of doing damage as well. Overall, I bet this game would make for an excellent TAS, and maybe not unbearably difficult to luck-manipulate. From my very limited testing, it would seem that dodging random battles and enemy attacks might be possible by pausing for X amount of frames while walking or before selecting "Attack" or "Defend". As enemies shown in the Crystal Ball reach the row or column you are in and continue approaching, they seem to make a >^>V>^>V> or similar pattern, so dodging enemies that are following this pattern might be as simple as timing your movement to pass them while they are one row (or column, as the case may be) to your side (pausing for a frame or few frames while walking may be the quickest way to do this). As for dodging attacks and ensuring that yours connect, the luck manipulation may be able to work out similarly. Try attacking (or defending) at a certain frame, and see if your attack lands and your enemy's (or enemies') attacks miss. If not, go back, and wait an additional 1 frame before attacking. I haven't tested this at the frame level, and even then, only to a limited amount, but I hope it can get ya started! P.S. Wilme gets no armor... except the loin cloth they added in the US version... and the only weapon he can equip isn't something I found until I read a FAQ. His magic is the weakest in the game, but now that I think about it, might be sufficient in a TAS in comparison to Olvan because of the increased Speed he has over Olvan. Good luck! </ramble>
Posted: 9/7/2005 5:49 AM
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Tailz
Former player
Joined: 7/2/2005
Posts: 309
Location: Baltimore, MD
That's a great start, thanks for the help! Another thing I noticed is you level faster with one person than with two, because you aren't sharing exp. This also increases the difficulty, because you are more likely to die alone than you would with a partner. One strategy I used when I would play for fun is I would get the two people I wanted, then kill my partner and level one guy at a time. It worked well, especially if I would use frameskip and make the battles pass by in milliseconds. Though it's not that easy when I play on my SNES. Your idea with the crystal ball will probably work because I dodge enemies all the time. The defend/attack scheme seems like it will work too, especially since defending before attacking makes your attack stronger. I know how to use slowdown, kinda. With SNES9x you just hold SHIFT and press the + or - key on the numpad right? What speed do I need to set it at to make it go by frame by frame?
Guybrush: "I'm selling these fine leather jackets." Wally: "Really?" Guybrush: "No. I 'm lying." Wally: "In that case, I don't want one!" Currently working on: Nothing at the moment.
Posted: 9/7/2005 6:55 AM
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nitsuja
Emulator Coder, Skilled player (1310)
Joined: 12/21/2004
Posts: 2687
Computer TASer of 2011 TAS of 2011 First edition TAS of 2011 Computer TAS of 2011 Sega TAS of 2010 Sega TAS of 2008 Sega TAS of 2007 Glitchy TAS of 2007
Tailz wrote:
What speed do I need to set it at to make it go by frame by frame?
Setting the speed really low for frame-by-frame control is really tedious. A better way to do it is to press the \ key whenever you want to go to the next frame, while holding all the other buttons for that frame. You can also hold \ for a while to more quickly advance multiple frames if you're holding the same buttons for those frames, which can save a lot of time since it's usually faster than slow-motion. Afterward you can press the keyboard key called Pause to switch back to regular continuous playing.
Posted: 9/7/2005 9:28 PM
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Tailz
Former player
Joined: 7/2/2005
Posts: 309
Location: Baltimore, MD
What's the keyboard key called Pause? The only way I can pause the emulator is by going into the file menu.
Guybrush: "I'm selling these fine leather jackets." Wally: "Really?" Guybrush: "No. I 'm lying." Wally: "In that case, I don't want one!" Currently working on: Nothing at the moment.
Posted: 9/7/2005 9:42 PM
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Bag_of_Magic_Food
He/Him
Player (206)
Joined: 5/29/2004
Posts: 5712
It should be in the upper-right corner!
put yourself in my rocketpack if that poochie is one outrageous dude
Posted: 9/7/2005 10:00 PM
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Hamm
Joined: 7/29/2004
Posts: 136
Location: Temple City, CA
I'm going to assume it is the pause/break key. it's above the arrows and the insert/delete/home/end/etc keys. set of 3 keys includes print screen, scroll lock, and pause.
"How can you prove you exist? Maybe we don't exist..." -Vivi Ornitier (Final Fantasy IX)
Posted: 9/7/2005 11:09 PM
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TheAxeMan
Ambassador, Experienced player (709)
Joined: 7/17/2004
Posts: 985
Location: The FLOATING CASTLE
Good luck with this one! Right off, you should experiment to see how much manipulation is possible in battle. Can you change what the enemy does each turn, or cause him to miss? Can you get a crit on your hit everytime? If you can't manipulate battles very well, then you are screwed because it takes waaaay too long to levelup in this game. I suspect that some enemies may be scripted to use magic or special abilities at certain times, which is a potential killer. I don't doubt that you will be able to avoid most fights, which would really make this a good game for a TAS, assuming you can win the fights that you have to do. Most likely the main factor for choosing your character will be whichever apprentice has the highest attack at low levels, since you'll probably only be killing bosses. That suggests Lux and Wilme, however, I wouldn't rule out Kamil or Olvan. It might be possible to scrape together money for weapons if you can totally ignore armor and most items, and there might be some you can pick up. If you can't control enemy actions, then Lejes mirror spell could be useful, I forget if there's an item to duplicate it. The stat bonuses from levelups and items can be manipulated, and you should get the max power every time. Even playing through this game normally you really have to do this with some characters. Are the starting stats always the same or can you get those higher?
Posted: 9/8/2005 1:38 AM
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Healblade
Joined: 8/1/2004
Posts: 91
You'll want to do some testing to see if Defend+Double Attack or Double Attack+Double Attack does more damage overall. This may also be dependent on the Defense of the enemy you are fighting. Enemies being scripted to use magic is certainly a possibility, as Lejes is scripted to use Defense2 on you if he has the necessary mana and your Defense is not currently halved. Initial Stats are fixed for each character and cannot be manipulated. Also, level up stat increases are set sometime before the "Lux reached level 4" message. It seems that delaying the end of the battle for some time or a round allows new stat increase numbers to be determined, although it doesn't appear that the numbers are re-determined each frame.
Posted: 9/8/2005 2:53 AM
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Tailz
Former player
Joined: 7/2/2005
Posts: 309
Location: Baltimore, MD
D'oh, I never would've thought to look for a button on the keyboard called "Pause". I was holding SHIFT and pressing everything but didn't think to look for that. Anyway, I was experimenting with the battles today. I may not have been doing it right, but I couldn't get the enemy to miss me. I was holding the button needed for the next frame, then hit the \ key to advance it, then resumed the game. I just connected with a normal hit and he connected with me. I tried this a couple times, and got the same result. Maybe I should wait longer or something. Would defending more than once effect it? As for doding enemies on the world map, that's easy. I don't need to use luck manipulation to do that, I'm so good at it. I'll use it anyway though because I want this run to be perfect. Defending + Double Attack would indeed be more powerful than a normal Double Attack. I know this from experience. Any attack that comes after defending will be stronger than not defending. Double Attacks without defending will be faster because you only need to say "Attack". What I could do is use Double Attack + Double Attack on normal enemies, then use Defend + Double Attack + Defend + Double Attack on bosses. That with increasing my attack power with B Powers or the Power spell would make quick work of them. There is an item for just about every spell in the game. B Power, Agility, Ice, Protect , Fire, etc. The Mirror spell protects against Vacuum I think, which is what the Harp does. F-Shield spell proects against a fire or ice attack for one turn, and I'm not sure if there is an item for that. As for manipulating the level up stats, that's gonna take some doing. I know that by simply loading state you can manipulate the stat increases from items like A Seeds and V Seeds.
Guybrush: "I'm selling these fine leather jackets." Wally: "Really?" Guybrush: "No. I 'm lying." Wally: "In that case, I don't want one!" Currently working on: Nothing at the moment.
Posted: 9/8/2005 3:02 AM
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Ferret_Warlord
Skilled player (1416)
Joined: 10/27/2004
Posts: 1978
Location: Making an escape
From what I recall you can't manipulate battles at all. This is because the seed is set at the beginning of the battle and all subsequent actions will be based on it. It doesn't matter how you travel through the menus; it doesn't matter how long you wait; Attack-Defend-Attack will always, always, always yield the exact same result no matter what. As such, doing battles won't be about manipulating the results, but rather finding the proper "path". In fact I think the seed may be set sometime before the battle. I remember having a save state right before fighting the elf-girl so I wouldn't have to put up with the annoyingly long boot up after the reset (she always ran off after the fight), and certain actions always had the same results. I know of one glitch that should be helpful: before the battles with other questers that force you into a one-on-one, if the lead character is dead, you can start the fight with the other guy and resurrect your partner after the battle begins. Double team 'em!
A hundred years from now, they will gaze upon my work and marvel at my skills but never know my name. And that will be good enough for me.
Posted: 9/8/2005 4:46 AM
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TheAxeMan
Ambassador, Experienced player (709)
Joined: 7/17/2004
Posts: 985
Location: The FLOATING CASTLE
Ferret Warlord wrote:
From what I recall you can't manipulate battles at all. This is because the seed is set at the beginning of the battle and all subsequent actions will be based on it.
After a little random testing (didn't count frames, just used savestates to see if the outcome is the same every turn) I don't think this is true. However, I also don't think that the variables re-randomize every frame, it may only be about every second or more. This is bad, but workable, particularly because it looks like if you hit the button immediately, the outcome is the same as the previous turn. So perhaps you'll have a long pause in the beginning of each battle, then each turn will go quickly. If you still want to do this run, you should figure out how this works before worrying about any of the other details. Oh, and be prepared for a lot of studying on every detail of the game, filling in gaps with your own research and testing. As well as most likely having to do at least a partial test run. But hey, when you can crack a big-time RPG like this, the result is pretty cool.
Posted: 9/8/2005 10:43 PM
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Tailz
Former player
Joined: 7/2/2005
Posts: 309
Location: Baltimore, MD
Yeah, I'm looking forward to doing the run. One thing I noticed is the battles work more like an algorithm than complete randomness. You do one thing and the enemy reacts accordingly. When I was experimenting earlier trying to see if I could manipulate double attacks every turn, there was one battle where the enemy kept doding my attack. No matter how many frames I waited, the enemy kept dodging. It wasn't until I said "Defend" that the enemy didn't dodge me. Maybe by finding the correct "path" manipulation is possible. I have to fiddle with it some more I guess.
Guybrush: "I'm selling these fine leather jackets." Wally: "Really?" Guybrush: "No. I 'm lying." Wally: "In that case, I don't want one!" Currently working on: Nothing at the moment.
Posted: 9/9/2005 11:09 AM
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Mlandry
Joined: 8/3/2004
Posts: 325
heh good luck, i thought about starting a run of this before but thought it was too long to attempt
Posted: 9/15/2005 1:00 AM
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Tailz
Former player
Joined: 7/2/2005
Posts: 309
Location: Baltimore, MD
I figured out how to manipulate the level up increases. It seems the gains are set during the fight that you gain a level, so by saving a record before that fight, I can level up, see what the gains are, then reload and fight again until I get what I want. I also know how the gains work and what the max level up gain would be, so all I need to do is keep reloading until I get the best (or real close to it) gain. As for manipulating battles, still no luck there. The only thing that seems to influence battles is what I do, whether it's "Attack" or "Defend" or "Item", no matter how many frames I wait or how fast I go. Still, I'm inexperienced at using frames to manipulate stuff and pausing with frames, so it may take a while to figure out. I've decided I'm going to use Wilme because he is cost-efficient and has decent fire magic which will help in the long run. What I haven't decided is who I'm going to get as a partner, if I get a partner at all. Any suggestions?
Guybrush: "I'm selling these fine leather jackets." Wally: "Really?" Guybrush: "No. I 'm lying." Wally: "In that case, I don't want one!" Currently working on: Nothing at the moment.
Posted: 9/16/2005 4:05 PM
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Mlandry
Joined: 8/3/2004
Posts: 325
i would take the robot guy if possible because hes also cost efficient with lightning magic, so 2 strong fighter with good magic, killing bosses will go fast with those 2 if you dont want him, get esuna i think, the mage.. she helps a lot for normal enemies
Posted: 10/1/2005 1:14 AM
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Tailz
Former player
Joined: 7/2/2005
Posts: 309
Location: Baltimore, MD
Ok, I started a run and got past the first Pison boss. I'm having trouble manipulating the battles. I can get it to give me the battles that I want, but I can't manipulate anything during the battle. I posted the WIP here: impact.megarpg.net/7TH-SAGA.smv What do you think?
Guybrush: "I'm selling these fine leather jackets." Wally: "Really?" Guybrush: "No. I 'm lying." Wally: "In that case, I don't want one!" Currently working on: Nothing at the moment.
Posted: 10/1/2005 3:18 AM
(Edited: 10/1/2005 5:55 PM)
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nitsuja
Emulator Coder, Skilled player (1310)
Joined: 12/21/2004
Posts: 2687
Computer TASer of 2011 TAS of 2011 First edition TAS of 2011 Computer TAS of 2011 Sega TAS of 2010 Sega TAS of 2008 Sega TAS of 2007 Glitchy TAS of 2007
I'm having trouble watching this, either that or you purposely wander around aimlessly, talk to some walls, and eventually die. Could you switch to using the modified version of Snes9x to make it easier to watch your movie? (You can get it here). Since you didn't use that, I can't tell which ROM or emulator settings you used to make this. (There's no yellow text in Snes9x when you open the ROM, right?) Anyway, what I think of what I saw... this is more a test run than a WIP. There's nowhere near enough accuracy to be publishable - for instance, you waste over 200 frames waiting at menus before the game even starts. Your other run I saw didn't do that sort of thing so I'll assume it's intentional, but you should try to play with more precision (at least using frame advance at menus) even for test runs. Also, the syntax for a url here is 
[url=www.whatever.com]linkname[/url]
not 
[url]www.whatever.com[/url]
edit: or maybe BoMF knows what he's talking about:
Posted: 10/1/2005 4:31 PM
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Bag_of_Magic_Food
He/Him
Player (206)
Joined: 5/29/2004
Posts: 5712
Actually, both ways work. Tailz probably just needs to uncheck "Disable BBCode in this post".
put yourself in my rocketpack if that poochie is one outrageous dude
Posted: 10/3/2005 12:13 PM
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Tailz
Former player
Joined: 7/2/2005
Posts: 309
Location: Baltimore, MD
Yeah, that's a big desynch. I used the snes9x-143-WIP1 emu to do it because it worked with the Jurassic Park run whereas the other one didn't. I just didn't think to try the other one. I'll redo it with the other emulator.
Guybrush: "I'm selling these fine leather jackets." Wally: "Really?" Guybrush: "No. I 'm lying." Wally: "In that case, I don't want one!" Currently working on: Nothing at the moment.
Posted: 9/24/2006 4:32 AM
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Dromiceius
Joined: 10/3/2005
Posts: 1332
Is anyone interested in running this, this year? I have a little info to share... There doesn't seem to be any excuse for getting into unwanted battles. I ran all the way to the first boss without having fought anything. The boss, of course, murdered poor A in one hit, and there doesn't seem to be any luck manipulation in dungeon-battles, aside from starting the battle at a different frame. Overworld battles, however, can be manipulated to some extent. It'll take some doing, but I can probably figure out which address(es) to watch in order to hit every time/score better damage/more criticals/dodge more often. I might figure it out for it's own sake, but would anyone consider using the information? PS. I had movies, but dehacked isn't accepting movies made with Snes9x 1.5. Boo-urns! :p
Posted: 9/24/2006 4:49 AM
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nitsuja
Emulator Coder, Skilled player (1310)
Joined: 12/21/2004
Posts: 2687
Computer TASer of 2011 TAS of 2011 First edition TAS of 2011 Computer TAS of 2011 Sega TAS of 2010 Sega TAS of 2008 Sega TAS of 2007 Glitchy TAS of 2007
Dromiceius wrote:
PS. I had movies, but dehacked isn't accepting movies made with Snes9x 1.5. Boo-urns! :p
Neither will this site accept them, I think... Especially if you actually used Snes9x 1.502, which is not compatible with either 1.5 or 1.51, movie-wise. I would stick with 1.43 (or variants of it) until 1.51 comes out. See the posts here for more explanation.
Posted: 9/24/2006 5:49 AM
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Nitrodon
Active player (287)
Joined: 3/4/2006
Posts: 341
Unfortunately, the RNG only advances when used, which makes manipulation of long boss battles nearly impossible. The only reason that overworld battles are manipulable is that the waves crash against the shore at random intervals. The RNG values are 7e006c (low byte) and 7e006e (high byte). In addition, there is a separate RNG which controls enemy behavior with values at 7e0070 (low byte) and 7e0072 (high byte), but that isn't very manipulable. I've played this game extensively as a child and delved deep into the assembly code for my own interest, so I would be able to help with a TAS of this game if I'm convinced that the game's pace won't be too slow or the necessary S.Brain levelling won't be too tedious.
Posted: 9/24/2006 6:43 AM
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Dromiceius
Joined: 10/3/2005
Posts: 1332
Wow. Well, now we know. Thanks for the information. I think I might do some experimenting with this...
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