Post by Bag_of_Magic_Food

Posted: 8/20/2005 5:50 PM

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Quietust

He/Him

Emulator Coder, Former player

Joined: 7/14/2004
Posts: 250

What exactly is your reason for choosing the NES version? At least two major differences between the NES version and the 'proper' versions (Amiga, PC, SNES, Genesis, etc.) have been pointed out, as well as a few others that haven't been mentioned: 1. (already mentioned) You cannot alter the drop rate, which means some levels will require some rather long waits. 2. (already mentioned) 20 of the levels in the game have mysteriously vanished, most likely due to space constraints. 3. It only has 8 in-level songs (out of the original 17), and they don't sound that good. 4. Its graphics are of rather poor quality. 5. Many of the remaining levels have been physically altered. To name a few: * In the first level of 'Fun' difficulty (Just Dig), if you have one lemming dig down to the exit, all remaining lemmings who fall down that hole will crater; this does not happen in the proper versions. * In the first level of 'Tricky' difficulty (This should be a doddle!), 13 of 14 lemmings (at a fixed release rate of 50) must be saved within 2 minutes using exactly 1 blocker, 1 bomber, 3 builders, and 1 basher. In the proper versions, 50 of 100 lemmings (with a base release rate of 50) must be saved within 4 minutes with 10 of each job available. * In the first level of 'Mayhem' difficulty (Steel Works), the lemmings will safely fall from the gate and land on the steel platform. In the proper versions, they will not survive the fall from the trapdoor and will crater, requiring the player to use several floaters, blockers, and builders to make a small bridge to catch them. 6. Some elements of gameplay have been altered; namely, builders build upwards at a 45 degree angle instead of at a ~26.6 degree angle (across 2, up 1).

* Quietust, QMT Productions P.S. If you don't get this note, let me know and I'll write you another

Posted: 8/20/2005 6:20 PM

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AdmiralJonB

Joined: 6/20/2004
Posts: 292
Location: United Kingdom

Well, some people get attached to certain consoles, I know from experience.

Posted: 8/20/2005 10:58 PM

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daniayaw

Former player

Joined: 7/29/2005
Posts: 459
Location: Brazil

Quietust wrote:

What exactly is your reason for choosing the NES version? At least two major differences between the NES version and the 'proper' versions (Amiga, PC, SNES, Genesis, etc.) have been pointed out, as well as a few others that haven't been mentioned: 1. (already mentioned) You cannot alter the drop rate, which means some levels will require some rather long waits. 2. (already mentioned) 20 of the levels in the game have mysteriously vanished, most likely due to space constraints. 3. It only has 8 in-level songs (out of the original 17), and they don't sound that good. 4. Its graphics are of rather poor quality. 5. Many of the remaining levels have been physically altered. To name a few: * In the first level of 'Fun' difficulty (Just Dig), if you have one lemming dig down to the exit, all remaining lemmings who fall down that hole will crater; this does not happen in the proper versions. * In the first level of 'Tricky' difficulty (This should be a doddle!), 13 of 14 lemmings (at a fixed release rate of 50) must be saved within 2 minutes using exactly 1 blocker, 1 bomber, 3 builders, and 1 basher. In the proper versions, 50 of 100 lemmings (with a base release rate of 50) must be saved within 4 minutes with 10 of each job available. * In the first level of 'Mayhem' difficulty (Steel Works), the lemmings will safely fall from the gate and land on the steel platform. In the proper versions, they will not survive the fall from the trapdoor and will crater, requiring the player to use several floaters, blockers, and builders to make a small bridge to catch them. 6. Some elements of gameplay have been altered; namely, builders build upwards at a 45 degree angle instead of at a ~26.6 degree angle (across 2, up 1).

and the most important: u cant play music by yourself using the tools lol XD

My big signature was cleared by admin; i should read <a href="http://tasvideos.org/ForumRules.html">forum rules</a>. But... who does?

Posted: 8/22/2005 8:43 AM

Post subject: 69

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Acmlm

Active player (478)

Joined: 11/14/2004
Posts: 169
Location: Mirabel, Québec, Canada

I did some progress on the SNES version tonight (and redid level 2 and 3), now it beats the first 6 levels in 4:47: http://acmlm.cjb.net:2/Emu/snes/Snes9x/smv1/Lemmings-2.smv 1: Might be a little faster if I used the Digger a little later, to minimize the digging to do, but otherwise optimal 2: Used the Floater at the last possible moment, killed off the rest, should be optimal 3: Now optimizing it starts to get a little tricky ... the default release rate wastes time, and 99 all the way gives too many unneeded lemmings to nuke (causing lag), so I have to find the best changes to do. The rest is easy (and you'll notice they survive the higher drop at the bottom, unlike on NES) 4: Again, I had to find the best release rate variations to avoid lemmings walking back and forth (getting behind the rest) more than they should 5: Full 99 here ... but then I had to handle a whole crowd of lemmings so none would turn back, which fortunately was possible 6: No blockers, perfect timing, and some more release rate fun Even the simple levels at the start require some planning and take a while to do, doing level 2 to 6 took hours and over 1000 re-records, this could be a very long run to make. I also did things with the cursor instead of only playing music, and I should probably find entertaining ways to kill unneded lemmings (without wasting time) in the later levels ... The NES version isn't as good, but things move faster, levels are shorter, there's less lemmings and no need to worry about finding the optimal release rate, so it'd be easier to do. (edited) Just heard about Select+Start ending the level without having to nuke ... this could save much more time.

Posted: 8/22/2005 12:45 PM

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daniayaw

Former player

Joined: 7/29/2005
Posts: 459
Location: Brazil

lol very good acmlm

My big signature was cleared by admin; i should read <a href="http://tasvideos.org/ForumRules.html">forum rules</a>. But... who does?

Posted: 8/22/2005 12:51 PM

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Walker_Boh

Former player

Joined: 4/16/2004
Posts: 1276
Location: Uppsala, Sweden

Whatever version you decide to use I hope you finish this. I'd love to see a TAS of it. Good luck man.

/Walker Boh

Posted: 8/23/2005 4:29 AM
(Edited: 8/24/2007 1:31 AM)

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Dacicus

Editor, Player (69)

Joined: 6/22/2005
Posts: 1050

Well, I've worked on optimizing the first level on the NES version. I found out that the fastest time happens when you have the lemming dig as soon as it's past the underhang on the left. This way, all of the lemmings except the one you need to save die from falling down the hole. Nuking them takes longer. There's probably no need to apply this strategy to the SNES version because of the Select + Start trick. BTW, I'm glad to hear that you're working on the SNES version, Acmlm.

Current Projects: TAS: Wizards & Warriors III.

Posted: 8/23/2005 6:43 AM

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AdmiralJonB

Joined: 6/20/2004
Posts: 292
Location: United Kingdom

I have a desync problem with the snes one, which rom and settings are you using?

Posted: 8/23/2005 7:01 AM

Post subject: 70

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Acmlm

Active player (478)

Joined: 11/14/2004
Posts: 169
Location: Mirabel, Québec, Canada

Lemmings (V1.1) (U) [!].smc WIP1 timing, fake mute Snes9x re-recording version 7 I also worked some more on it today: http://acmlm.cjb.net:2/Emu/snes/Snes9x/smv1/Lemmings-3.smv Using Select+Start in the first 6 levels saved about 40 seconds, and now this completes 7 to 9 too, for a current total of 6:53. 7: I should probably set the release rate a little higher to save a few seconds, but setting it too high would cost too many builders ... 8: Easy level, and now I get to mess around with all the jobs, which makes it much funner while waiting for all the required lemmings to be saved. 9: This one is even better, since I get more space and 10 spare lemmings to torture. I also try to use (waste) as many of the jobs as I can without wasting time.

Posted: 8/23/2005 10:22 AM

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DrJones

Joined: 4/3/2005
Posts: 575
Location: Spain

I think it would be a good idea to write notes when you finish each level, so it will be easier to hex-edit your run if you find a shortcut later.

No.

Posted: 8/23/2005 12:33 PM

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Truncated

Editor, Reviewer, Experienced player (979)

Joined: 4/17/2004
Posts: 3109
Location: Sweden

I'm looking forward to the more difficult levels. Could you not switch jobs and make sounds every other frame? It's making my ears bleed. The melodies and the other general crazyness you make is fine.

Posted: 8/23/2005 4:35 PM
(Edited: 8/24/2007 1:32 AM)

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Dacicus

Editor, Player (69)

Joined: 6/22/2005
Posts: 1050

Wow, there are really significant differences between the NES and SNES versions. Too bad the completion screens require so much time on the SNES. You can get rid of them by pressing A the frame after they appear on the NES version. EDIT: I finally figured out how to stop a builder in the middle of his actions by assigning it another job. Several FAQs had mentioned the trick, but it only works after the builder has placed 8 of the 16 steps on the NES version. This makes levels 11 and 13 shorter by about 5 seconds each.

Current Projects: TAS: Wizards & Warriors III.

Posted: 8/28/2005 10:36 PM

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Enhasa

Joined: 1/14/2005
Posts: 216

Wow, I really want to see Lemmings runs more than can be adequately described, but I never figured anyone would be crazy enough to try them until we reached a point where almost all the easier runs were already completed. I played Lemmings 1 originally on the PC, so I am not an expert on NES/SNES considerations, but I think I would rather see the SNES one. Nach, when you refer to Lemmings 3, do you mean Lemmings 3D? And if so, I'm a little confused since it's generally considered to be easier and slower and probably needing less dexterity. Still an amazing game though, and the "Lemmings Vision" thingy was pretty innovative and often useful. About needing dexterity, the games in the series that are not pure puzzle games would of course need the most. Not too many people remember there was a Lemmings Paintball game. It was also pretty neat but unfortunately didn't have great mind-boggling puzzles that the series is known for. There was also a platformer involving the titular character Lomax, which was decent at best.

"I think happiness is just being able to loaf without stress." http://speeddemosarchive.com/

Posted: 8/28/2005 10:41 PM

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Nach

Emulator Coder

Joined: 3/9/2004
Posts: 4588
Location: In his lab studying psychology to find new ways to torture TASers and forumers

Enhasa wrote:

Nach, when you refer to Lemmings 3, do you mean Lemmings 3D? And if so, I'm a little confused since it's generally considered to be easier and slower and probably needing less dexterity. Still an amazing game though, and the "Lemmings Vision" thingy was pretty innovative and often useful.

No I mean Lemmings 3. And FYI, you won't catch me playing any 3D games.

Enhasa wrote:

About needing dexterity, the games in the series that are not pure puzzle games would of course need the most. Not too many people remember there was a Lemmings Paintball game. It was also pretty neat but unfortunately didn't have great mind-boggling puzzles that the series is known for. There was also a platformer involving the titular character Lomax, which was decent at best.

Lemmings Paintball didn't need Dexterity, it needed you to learn how to ambush other Lemmings.

Warning: Opinions expressed by Nach or others in this post do not necessarily reflect the views, opinions, or position of Nach himself on the matter(s) being discussed therein.

Posted: 8/28/2005 10:53 PM

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Dacicus

Editor, Player (69)

Joined: 6/22/2005
Posts: 1050

Enhasa wrote:

Wow, I really want to see Lemmings runs more than can be adequately described, but I never figured anyone would be crazy enough to try them until we reached a point where almost all the easier runs were already completed.

Oh. Is Lemmings really considered to be that hard? I mean, some of the later levels seem nearly impossible when I look at them superficially, but the thing that bugs me most is finding a way to improve an early level after I've recorded several levels past it.

Current Projects: TAS: Wizards & Warriors III.

Posted: 8/29/2005 2:53 AM

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Enhasa

Joined: 1/14/2005
Posts: 216

Nach wrote:

No I mean Lemmings 3. And FYI, you won't catch me playing any 3D games.

I see no "Lemmings 3." I'll assume you mean Lemmings Revolution, but it's confusing anyway. The sequel to Lemmings 1 was Oh No! More Lemmings, so really Lemmings 2 was the third "main" Lemmings... and so on.

Nach wrote:

Lemmings Paintball didn't need Dexterity, it needed you to learn how to ambush other Lemmings.

Dexterity is useful in a Starcraft micromanagement sort of way. Many a Starcraft player has been ruined not by strategy or tactics, but by lack of dexterity.

Dacicus wrote:

Oh. Is Lemmings really considered to be that hard?

No, not really, I was just referring to the length of the undertaking.

"I think happiness is just being able to loaf without stress." http://speeddemosarchive.com/

Posted: 8/29/2005 3:30 AM

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Dacicus

Editor, Player (69)

Joined: 6/22/2005
Posts: 1050

Enhasa wrote:

No, not really, I was just referring to the length of the undertaking.

Oh. Then I totally agree with you.

Current Projects: TAS: Wizards & Warriors III.

Posted: 8/31/2005 3:51 AM

Post subject: well...

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XkyRauh

He/Him

Joined: 6/9/2005
Posts: 171
Location: Southern California

"The Lemmings Chronicles," which had the install directory in DOS of "LEM3," was also released overseas as "The Wonderful World of Lemmings." It depicted 3 of the surviving tribes from Lemmings 2 trying to make their start on new islands. The tribes with the original release were Egyptian, Classic, and Shadow... and rumor has/had it that "expansion" tribes were on the way. But that never happened. :-(

Posted: 9/19/2005 4:31 AM

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hopper

Joined: 11/15/2004
Posts: 804
Location: Canada

Man I love the Lemmings. Just a couple of thoughts so far. Acmlm: You should wait for the Lemming to start falling before you give him the umbrella in level 2 to reduce the time he spends floating to the ground. Otherwise, awesome run. I love the way you played with the music to fill in the time. Dacius: Your link is giving me an invalid file ID. EDIT: Aye, crap. I didn't notice that were two more pages when I got to the bottom of page 1. Forget I said anything. Look away, look away.

TASing or playing back a DOS game? Make sure your files match the archive at RGB Classic Games.

Posted: 9/19/2005 4:36 AM

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Dacicus

Editor, Player (69)

Joined: 6/22/2005
Posts: 1050

Yeah, the host I use apparently deletes the files if they aren't downloaded for a while. I think it's like 2 weeks. Anyway, I've put the project on hold indefinitely. I am thinking about working on it again, though.

Current Projects: TAS: Wizards & Warriors III.

Posted: 9/19/2005 4:53 AM

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hopper

Joined: 11/15/2004
Posts: 804
Location: Canada

Those bastards! Oh well. I didn't get to see your NES run, but I've now seen the latest version of Acmlm's SNES run and it's awesome. I hope both of you will someday complete your runs.

TASing or playing back a DOS game? Make sure your files match the archive at RGB Classic Games.

Posted: 9/21/2005 3:52 PM

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